Lose Chubby Cheeks

I don't think water retention is your only culprit on a natural bulk.

Reduce salt and sugar intake (salt promotes water retention. Sodium is overused in foods to provide additional preservation and flavour so check your charts on the back of the pack)
Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from.
Check your medications - many OTC and prescription meds contribute towards water ret. Not to to mention performance enhancing drugs which are a big culprit for it.

Also don't drink too much alcohol. It contributes towards a bloated face and a bit of a zombie look with regular use. Not to mention the excess calories and sugar it will give you which in turn makes your face double worse.

Just a few simple things, I suppose.

IVMay wrote: »

I don't think water retention is your only culprit on a natural bulk.

Reduce salt and sugar intake (salt promotes water retention. Sodium is overused in foods to provide additional preservation and flavour so check your charts on the back of the pack)
Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from.
Check your medications - many OTC and prescription meds contribute towards water ret. Not to to mention performance enhancing drugs which are a big culprit for it.

Also don't drink too much alcohol. It contributes towards a bloated face and a bit of a zombie look with regular use. Not to mention the excess calories and sugar it will give you which in turn makes your face double worse.

Just a few simple things, I suppose.

You are equating dehydration to starvation mode? The former is real, the latter is not.

OP, if you are bulking (gaining weight) then chubby cheeks might be part of that for you due to genetics. I'll bet you when you do your cut the chubby cheeks will disappear.

IVMay wrote: »

SLLRunner wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

I don't think water retention is your only culprit on a natural bulk.

Reduce salt and sugar intake (salt promotes water retention. Sodium is overused in foods to provide additional preservation and flavour so check your charts on the back of the pack)
Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from.
Check your medications - many OTC and prescription meds contribute towards water ret. Not to to mention performance enhancing drugs which are a big culprit for it.

Also don't drink too much alcohol. It contributes towards a bloated face and a bit of a zombie look with regular use. Not to mention the excess calories and sugar it will give you which in turn makes your face double worse.

Just a few simple things, I suppose.

You are equating dehydration to starvation mode? The former is real, the latter is not.

OP, if you are bulking (gaining weight) then chubby cheeks might be part of that for you due to genetics. I'll bet you when you do your cut the chubby cheeks will disappear.

Sigh....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22535969
"Metabolic slowing with massive weight loss despite preservation of fat-free mass."
At baseline, participants were severely obese (× ± SD; body mass index 49.4 ± 9.4 kg/m(2)) with 49 ± 5% body fat. At wk 30, more than one third of initial body weight was lost (-38 ± 9%) and consisted of 17 ± 8% from FFM and 83 ± 8% from fat. RMR declined out of proportion to the decrease in body mass, demonstrating a substantial metabolic adaptation (-244 ± 231 and -504 ± 171 kcal/d at wk 6 and 30, respectively, P < 0.01). Energy expenditure attributed to physical activity increased by 10.2 ± 5.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 6 and 6.0 ± 4.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 30 (P < 0.001 vs. zero).

So there's no correlation with the situation of dehydration and starvation adaptation where the body is attempting to maintain a balance in either case?

"espite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or caloric restriction are maintained."

What term would you prefer it called? Metabolic damage? I'm intrigued to know.

Well adaptive thermogenesis is a thing, but I wouldn't say losing 17% FFM as a small thing either. Considering the small limitations of this study and that it was uncontrolled in terms of calories, it would be interesting if they could replicated.

Full study for those interested - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3387402/

ETA: I wouldn't consider AT or MA to be starvation mode.

psuLemon wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

SLLRunner wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

I don't think water retention is your only culprit on a natural bulk.

Reduce salt and sugar intake (salt promotes water retention. Sodium is overused in foods to provide additional preservation and flavour so check your charts on the back of the pack)
Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from.
Check your medications - many OTC and prescription meds contribute towards water ret. Not to to mention performance enhancing drugs which are a big culprit for it.

Also don't drink too much alcohol. It contributes towards a bloated face and a bit of a zombie look with regular use. Not to mention the excess calories and sugar it will give you which in turn makes your face double worse.

Just a few simple things, I suppose.

You are equating dehydration to starvation mode? The former is real, the latter is not.

OP, if you are bulking (gaining weight) then chubby cheeks might be part of that for you due to genetics. I'll bet you when you do your cut the chubby cheeks will disappear.

Sigh....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22535969
"Metabolic slowing with massive weight loss despite preservation of fat-free mass."
At baseline, participants were severely obese (× ± SD; body mass index 49.4 ± 9.4 kg/m(2)) with 49 ± 5% body fat. At wk 30, more than one third of initial body weight was lost (-38 ± 9%) and consisted of 17 ± 8% from FFM and 83 ± 8% from fat. RMR declined out of proportion to the decrease in body mass, demonstrating a substantial metabolic adaptation (-244 ± 231 and -504 ± 171 kcal/d at wk 6 and 30, respectively, P < 0.01). Energy expenditure attributed to physical activity increased by 10.2 ± 5.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 6 and 6.0 ± 4.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 30 (P < 0.001 vs. zero).

So there's no correlation with the situation of dehydration and starvation adaptation where the body is attempting to maintain a balance in either case?

"espite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or caloric restriction are maintained."

What term would you prefer it called? Metabolic damage? I'm intrigued to know.

Well adaptive thermogenesis is a thing, but I wouldn't say losing 17% FFM as a small thing either. Considering the small limitations of this study and that it was uncontrolled in terms of calories, it would be interesting if they could replicated.

Full study for those interested - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3387402/

ETA: I wouldn't consider AT or MA to be starvation mode.

You might find this interesting:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309147766_Changes_in_Energy_Expenditure_with_Weight_Gain_and_Weight_Loss_in_Humans

SLLRunner wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

SLLRunner wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

I don't think water retention is your only culprit on a natural bulk.

Reduce salt and sugar intake (salt promotes water retention. Sodium is overused in foods to provide additional preservation and flavour so check your charts on the back of the pack)
Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from.
Check your medications - many OTC and prescription meds contribute towards water ret. Not to to mention performance enhancing drugs which are a big culprit for it.

Also don't drink too much alcohol. It contributes towards a bloated face and a bit of a zombie look with regular use. Not to mention the excess calories and sugar it will give you which in turn makes your face double worse.

Just a few simple things, I suppose.

You are equating dehydration to starvation mode? The former is real, the latter is not.

OP, if you are bulking (gaining weight) then chubby cheeks might be part of that for you due to genetics. I'll bet you when you do your cut the chubby cheeks will disappear.

Sigh....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22535969
"Metabolic slowing with massive weight loss despite preservation of fat-free mass."
At baseline, participants were severely obese (× ± SD; body mass index 49.4 ± 9.4 kg/m(2)) with 49 ± 5% body fat. At wk 30, more than one third of initial body weight was lost (-38 ± 9%) and consisted of 17 ± 8% from FFM and 83 ± 8% from fat. RMR declined out of proportion to the decrease in body mass, demonstrating a substantial metabolic adaptation (-244 ± 231 and -504 ± 171 kcal/d at wk 6 and 30, respectively, P < 0.01). Energy expenditure attributed to physical activity increased by 10.2 ± 5.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 6 and 6.0 ± 4.1 kcal/kg.d at wk 30 (P < 0.001 vs. zero).

So there's no correlation with the situation of dehydration and starvation adaptation where the body is attempting to maintain a balance in either case?

"espite relative preservation of FFM, exercise did not prevent dramatic slowing of resting metabolism out of proportion to weight loss. This metabolic adaptation may persist during weight maintenance and predispose to weight regain unless high levels of physical activity or caloric restriction are maintained."

What term would you prefer it called? Metabolic damage? I'm intrigued to know.

Sigh...? This made me smile.

Dehydration is real, starvation mode as to us ordinary dieters is not, and someone who is bulking has no chance of starving. Yes, if someone is truly starving (as in Minnesota Starvation Experiment) then they may not be drinking enough water and be dehydrated, but the starvation here is from a significant loss of weight and lean muscle mass, not from lack of water itself.

Correlation does not equal causation.

The comparison of starvation mode was in relation to the body's attempt at maintaining status quo in terms of most efficient functionality for its organs and systems. It will always do this - regardless.

"Also - drink plenty of water. If you're not drinking enough water you're more likely to *retain* water. The body does this kind of like in 'starvation mode' because it has no idea when your next drink is coming from."

The body's defense mechanisms towards lack of water is to store more water.

Causation has nothing to do with any point made. Correlation was the overall comparison with the biological predisposition to retain original balance. You said that starvation mode is a myth. I provided a study where it shows it isn't. If you look below I'll provide you with a study specific to the entire process of maintenance, deficit, keeping that deficit and weight gain. This will also show that the body goes into starvation mode even on a regular deficit.


Yes I am aware of the Starvation experiment and its goals/results. I think anybody that looks into 'starvation' will automatically have that generate as a high priority in search results.... Always reminds me of the early 80's IRA hunger strikes when I think of starvation, though; and what it must have taken to voluntarily let yourself slowly die for two months especially with the 45 day mark involuntary muscle spasms, seizures, hallucinations and ocular issues.


Changes in Energy Expenditure with Weight Gain and Weight Loss in Humans
AT differs in response to changes in energy balance. With negative energy balance, AT is directed towards energy sparing. It relates to a reset of biological defence of body weight and mainly refers to REE. After weight loss, AT of nREE adds to weight maintenance. During overfeeding, energy dissipation is explained by AT of the nREE component only.

Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309147766_Changes_in_Energy_Expenditure_with_Weight_Gain_and_Weight_Loss_in_Humans

Please see figures 2 + 3
I've contacted the authors myself in order to get more information from them regarding their research.

psuLemon wrote: »

Personally, i think you are being a bit dramatic @IVMay . You'd have to drink very little water for some of this to occur. Not even taking into that most foods provide hydration as well and the fact the OP is bulking. More than likley the OP has a genetic propensity to gain fat in their checks. They can drink more water but will unlikely solve the issue.

I did mention that water retention is not the only culprit in my opening line to OP's questions before anything else in fact.

As well as exploring several other possible reasons and some solutions. The facial area is one of the more obvious places you first notice so I feel for OP, too. Nothing worse than it being 'in your face' pardon the pun. Let me know what you think of the more recent research and its summary. edit: I'm waiting to hear back from the authors on some questions I have just for my own interest as it is interesting.

I haven't ever looked into water amounts for what you describe but that's definitely something I will look at.

SLLRunner wrote: »

"psuLemon wrote: »

"Personally, i think you are being a bit dramatic @IVMay. You'd have to drink very little water for some of this to occur. Not even taking into that most foods provide hydration as well and the the OP is bulking. More than likley the OP has a genetic propensity to gain fat in their checks.They can drink more water but will unlikely solve the issue.

I concur with this.

Also, there is no comparison to be made between dehydration and starvation mode. The former is real, the latter is not.

Starvation means one is emaciated and has lost a significant amount of body weight and lean muscle mass. Starvation mode does not exist, at least not to the common dieter, and especially someone who is overweight or bulking.

The comparison is the body's response to drops in either. There is a response in both cases. I demonstrated this above. If you care to look at the studies shown rather than repeating your initial idea without showing any evidence that it is a myth. The second research link I provided - please take a look at it as it shows the various stages including sustained deficit whilst consuming calories at that deficit and the corresponding changes in the body.....

Therefore there is evidence supporting starvation mode not just in long term sustained starvation but a calorie deficit weight loss based 'starvation mode' applied by the body's response.


SO
1. It is not a myth.
2. The comparison has already been made and remade and re-remade in my posts above. Please see above.
3. You keep mentioning 'common dieter' - see the link above featuring adult healthy participants in various stages of sustained gain, maintenance, loss, etc. Thank you.

I'll be happy to take a look if you require anything else in terms of further research into this?

Thank you for reading.

psuLemon wrote: »

IVMay wrote: »

SLLRunner wrote: »

"psuLemon wrote: »

"Personally, i think you are being a bit dramatic @IVMay. You'd have to drink very little water for some of this to occur. Not even taking into that most foods provide hydration as well and the the OP is bulking. More than likley the OP has a genetic propensity to gain fat in their checks.They can drink more water but will unlikely solve the issue.

I concur with this.

Also, there is no comparison to be made between dehydration and starvation mode. The former is real, the latter is not.

Starvation means one is emaciated and has lost a significant amount of body weight and lean muscle mass. Starvation mode does not exist, at least not to the common dieter, and especially someone who is overweight or bulking.

The comparison is the body's response to drops in either. There is a response in both cases. I demonstrated this above. If you care to look at the studies shown rather than repeating your initial idea without showing any evidence that it is a myth. The second research link I provided - please take a look at it as it shows the various stages including sustained deficit whilst consuming calories at that deficit and the corresponding changes in the body.....

Therefore there is evidence supporting starvation mode not just in long term sustained starvation but a calorie deficit weight loss based 'starvation mode' applied by the body's response.


SO
1. It is not a myth.
2. The comparison has already been made and remade and re-remade in my posts above. Please see above.
3. You keep mentioning 'common dieter' - see the link above featuring adult healthy participants in various stages of sustained gain, maintenance, loss, etc. Thank you.

I'll be happy to take a look if you require anything else in terms of further research into this?

Thank you for reading.

So I don't have access to the full text on the second link. But again, it's based on CR. This is not the current case for the OP, which is making it's application limited. Reductions to EE or nREE is not going to occur in overfed situations. If anything, you'd see increases in metabolism and TDEE due to increase in total mass.

If you are really interested in AT, I'd definitely recommend the below thread from one of the PhD's on the forum.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p1


With all this said, the more likely scenario, at least in my opinion is as follows:

1. Genetics
2. Modifications to sodium and inadequate potassium/magnesium causing water retention
3. Potentially increase in glycogen (but probably less likely).



And in my non scientific opinion.. there are differences between starvation mode and AT. I feel starvation mode has been over exploited by the fitness community and has currently been used as a buzzword. But to also be clear, there are a variety of things that occur with things like dehydration, increases or decreases to carbs, sodium, training and much more. It's just demonstrates the plethora of responses the body takes to address different things.

My reasons for aforementioned links was specifically to show evidence supporting 'starvation mode' which I believe they provide strong favour for. But you're right the OP is in calorie surplus. My whole issue was with the lady/gentleman here who was/still is adamant that it doesn't exist.

Thanks for the link sounds more up my street as it's definitely an interesting topic.

PS I have requested some information from the authors and I'll upload and provide a link on that thread you just mentioned as it happens to be relevant to that thread so that's a win-win. In fact hopefully they should respond today with any luck

Ditto regarding overuse and 'buzz words' - as they get diluted and skewed so much it's disgusting how things end up confused and ironed out to the point of insignificance in their meaning.

My personal opinion is that OP is not telling us the full picture and specifically mentioned water retention regarding a bulk at 3,500 calories... Something tells me somebody doing a bulk would be asking about a puffy/fatty face moreso than specifically going into water retention issues. Then again somebody else may have told them that. Who knows. Don't know but I'd bulk at 250 above maintenance in my case. Sounds like OP is packing on way too much to soon. Oh well.

IVMay wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

So I don't have access to the full text on the second link. But again, it's based on CR. This is not the current case for the OP, which is making it's application limited. Reductions to EE or nREE is not going to occur in overfed situations. If anything, you'd see increases in metabolism and TDEE due to increase in total mass.

If you are really interested in AT, I'd definitely recommend the below thread from one of the PhD's on the forum.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p1


With all this said, the more likely scenario, at least in my opinion is as follows:

1. Genetics
2. Modifications to sodium and inadequate potassium/magnesium causing water retention
3. Potentially increase in glycogen (but probably less likely).



And in my non scientific opinion.. there are differences between starvation mode and AT. I feel starvation mode has been over exploited by the fitness community and has currently been used as a buzzword. But to also be clear, there are a variety of things that occur with things like dehydration, increases or decreases to carbs, sodium, training and much more. It's just demonstrates the plethora of responses the body takes to address different things.

My reasons for aforementioned links was specifically to show evidence supporting 'starvation mode' which I believe they provide strong favour for. But you're right the OP is in calorie surplus. My whole issue was with the lady/gentleman here who was/still is adamant that it doesn't exist.

Thanks for the link sounds more up my street as it's definitely an interesting topic.

PS I have requested some information from the authors and I'll upload and provide a link on that thread you just mentioned as it happens to be relevant to that thread so that's a win-win. In fact hopefully they should respond today with any luck

Ditto regarding overuse and 'buzz words' - as they get diluted and skewed so much it's disgusting how things end up confused and ironed out to the point of insignificance in their meaning.

My personal opinion is that OP is not telling us the full picture and specifically mentioned water retention regarding a bulk at 3,500 calories... Something tells me somebody doing a bulk would be asking about a puffy/fatty face moreso than specifically going into water retention issues. Then again somebody else may have told them that. Who knows. Don't know but I'd bulk at 250 above maintenance in my case. Sounds like OP is packing on way too much to soon. Oh well.

So in order to not be pedantry, I will provide one more thought and let it drop. I'd argue that the differences in opinion revolved around differences in definition. Starvation mode, in my mind and probably those on this forum, would suggest that SM would only occur over prolong periods of times fasting (72 hours +); AT occurs naturally as a person loses weight (through the loss of FFM and FM).