CICO, It's a math formula
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GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Please read the post above and stop confusing calorie counting with CICO?
If you have an issue with calorie counting, can you at least use the proper terminology?21 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Why are you derailing this thread into a topic it's not? ndj's post was not about why people overeat, of which there are many reasons. His post was about the fact that every way of eating comes down to balancing calories eaten to calories expended, regardless of how you reach it. Also, see @Tacklewasher's post above. CICO does not equal calorie counting.20 -
adipace815 wrote: »This is such a fundamentally easy concept to see and understand- yet it is blown up all over the place in the discussion boards. I just shake my head when I see someone asking for help because they are not losing weight and have someone reply that they have to eat more.
seriously ...it is like nail over chalkboards when I hear someone say "the CICO way of eating is eating pizza all day and losing weight which is not healthy" or some variant of that...which is the genesis for my post...
And if it is? I can eat pizza all day if I want BUT there is more to Calories-in Calories-out. If you do NOT want to eat pizza all day, you also can do that...although I won't understand. Lol.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese.
Sigh. There is no one reason why all of us who happened to gain weight beyond what we wanted did that. There are a variety of reasons and it's for us to figure that out. CICO tells us that if we want to lose weight (or maintain, or gain) we do that by fixing our CICO balance. How to do that depends on the person.
Complaining that CICO doesn't explain why you personally overate seems like bitching because the NYT doesn't tell me why my car won't start or that the excellent liberal arts college I attended did not qualify me to immediately enter a medical residency. It doesn't claim to explain why you personally overate, but neither does the technical stuff that explains why/how the body may fight back against weight loss or even the interesting psychological discussions of the various influences that lead people to eat more under certain circumstances. YOU are the only one who can decide to eat less, move more, and figure out the best way to do that. If you were eating a poor diet that left you hungry and craving, sure, fix that, it's not rocket science. Similarly, if you find that you only can control CI when you do some super low carb diet, do that. But that is not an argument against OP's post or it's value to many people.
Personally, when choosing between two kinds of advice:
(1) It's about calories. Make sure calories in are less than calories out to lose, and if you gained it was because of the opposite. Figure out why you were eating too much and what would be helpful to you to prevent that in the future (you could even call this the "eat less, move more" advice); and
(2) Do keto. Cut out all grains and keep sugar below 5 g, even if from vegetables or fruit. (The advice you are saying worked for you, if I understand correctly.) Walk a quarter mile a day.
For me, (1) would win every time, and (2) would be unhelpful.14 -
Verity1111 wrote: »adipace815 wrote: »This is such a fundamentally easy concept to see and understand- yet it is blown up all over the place in the discussion boards. I just shake my head when I see someone asking for help because they are not losing weight and have someone reply that they have to eat more.
seriously ...it is like nail over chalkboards when I hear someone say "the CICO way of eating is eating pizza all day and losing weight which is not healthy" or some variant of that...which is the genesis for my post...
And if it is? I can eat pizza all day if I want BUT there is more to Calories-in Calories-out. If you do NOT want to eat pizza all day, you also can do that...although I won't understand. Lol.
does not matter...
my point is that CICO is not a way of eating.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
this has nothing to do with this topic.
If you want to debate the reasons for obesity then go over to the debate section and start a topic...
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GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Why are you derailing this thread into a topic it's not? ndj's post was not about why people overeat, of which there are many reasons. His post was about the fact that every way of eating comes down to balancing calories eaten to calories expended, regardless of how you reach it. Also, see @Tacklewasher's post above. CICO does not equal calorie counting.
To be fair, the OP does not pose a question or explicitly suggest a single point for discussion. It makes a minimum of four separate points (or seven separate points if you split out what appear to be intended as elaborations on more general points), including two separate points labeled "finally." You have to expect that people will wander down different paths when so many are presented.
(I'm not saying I don't find Gale's theme that knowing about CICO solves nothing unless you address every factor on both sides of the equation, plus any psychological or behavioral issues that affect adherence, to be a tiresome example of majoring in the minors. But he's attacking the basic premise of the OP, and if that's derailing, the large majority of threads on MFP are derailed by the third post.)2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Yeah, no. My insulin levels were fine. I was eating too much of everything, not just of a certain category of food. There are many, many populations that have a grain-based diet and very little problems with obesity.12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
GH...while all of those things might be complications of obesity...none of them are the cause of obesity. Some people might have medical complications that make it considerably harder to balance CICO to maintain a healthy weight it still comes down to that they were consuming more energy than they needed.
Every living organism exists because of that simple equation of CICO...plants...animals and humans. If you are living...you need a source of energy. From the very fact that you are living you are expending energy. Maybe the term should be EIEO...maybe it wouldn't cause so much confusion for some. IDK
Many things affect the energy in side...most of it we have control over. Energy out we have less control...if we want to be alive we have no control over how much our body needs to just survive. What we do have control over is how much additional energy we have going out...such as our daily activities and how much we exercise. Sure there are some of us that have physical conditions that make daily activities and/or exercise more difficult but for most of us we can control that portion of our energy out.
Yes...there are things that happen to people where the balance that they might have found will change...usually caused by health reasons. It will take work to figure out the "new" balance.
Ex: I have scheduled 3 surgeries this year. The first one I have already had and recovery time was only about a week and eating was difficult. Since it was so short of a time I didn't change anything concerning my CICO.
The next two will be a combined total of 4 to 6 months recovery and eating will be difficult...mostly liquids and soft foods...affecting CI. During this 4 to 6 months my CO will be affected by not being able to move as much as normal and by however much my body requires for healing. I will have limited control over my activity level and absolutely no control over how much energy my body requires for healing. I will just have to find ways to try and keep my CI to a level that will sustain my CO. I just have to adjust to try and keep things as balanced as possible.
However...CICO still applies...it is that simple. Executing a plan to keep it balanced is where the difficulty comes in since some of it will be out of my control.
Maybe you enjoy making all of this so difficult...IDK. It doesn't have to be. Sometimes we just have to give trying to be that special snowflake.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Why are you derailing this thread into a topic it's not? ndj's post was not about why people overeat, of which there are many reasons. His post was about the fact that every way of eating comes down to balancing calories eaten to calories expended, regardless of how you reach it. Also, see @Tacklewasher's post above. CICO does not equal calorie counting.
To be fair, the OP does not pose a question or explicitly suggest a single point for discussion. It makes a minimum of four separate points (or seven separate points if you split out what appear to be intended as elaborations on more general points), including two separate points labeled "finally." You have to expect that people will wander down different paths when so many are presented.
(I'm not saying I don't find Gale's theme that knowing about CICO solves nothing unless you address every factor on both sides of the equation, plus any psychological or behavioral issues that affect adherence, to be a tiresome example of majoring in the minors. But he's attacking the basic premise of the OP, and if that's derailing, the large majority of threads on MFP are derailed by the third post.)
Yeah, except that the OP was not at all about the psychology behind obesity, which has been the topic of many of Gale's posts. If he was arguing that CICO is a way of eating, yes, that would be on topic, but that's not what he's posting. If he kept his arguments to the CICO formula being too simple or incomplete, that would also be on topic. I do not agree that the why of overeating is on topic for this thread, and I believe it detracts from the OP.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success.
I didn't have some insatiable appetite or any other issues with food...I became overweight when I graduated college and took a desk job and went from being very active to more or less sedentary...CICO explains that just fine...I continued to eat the same but my activity level dropped...I let things be and over time I went from overweight to slightly obese.
Pretty simple...12 -
VintageFeline wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Why are you derailing this thread into a topic it's not? ndj's post was not about why people overeat, of which there are many reasons. His post was about the fact that every way of eating comes down to balancing calories eaten to calories expended, regardless of how you reach it. Also, see @Tacklewasher's post above. CICO does not equal calorie counting.
To be fair, the OP does not pose a question or explicitly suggest a single point for discussion. It makes a minimum of four separate points (or seven separate points if you split out what appear to be intended as elaborations on more general points), including two separate points labeled "finally." You have to expect that people will wander down different paths when so many are presented.
(I'm not saying I don't find Gale's theme that knowing about CICO solves nothing unless you address every factor on both sides of the equation, plus any psychological or behavioral issues that affect adherence, to be a tiresome example of majoring in the minors. But he's attacking the basic premise of the OP, and if that's derailing, the large majority of threads on MFP are derailed by the third post.)
The thing is, he's disputing the indisputable. It's his modus operandi.
Absolutely. I'm just saying that a better response than "you can't even talk about why you think the OP is based on a completely wrong premise" would be to say "here's why your statements about why you think the OP is based on a completely wrong premise miss the point." Fight bad facts and bad logic with good facts and good logic, not by saying "you can't make that argument here." Or ignore him. There's even a button for that.3 -
French_Peasant wrote: »
So for the maths experts, what would be the proper way to represent the CICO equation to take into account the presence/impact of known and unknown variables?
CIabc=COxyz?
Or perhaps we should be digging into our bag of fancy math bling and adding in some Σ and such?
See, this is the problem.....
The formula is CI=CO for energy balance.
CALCULATING those two things might be tricky for some people. (Though probably not for most).
i.e.
CI = exactly how much you eat/is cal information for that food correct etc
CO = how much muscle mass you have/daily exercise/hormonal influence.
BUT IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE EQUATION IN ANY WAY. You may just not have the right numbers.
And trying to say its invalid because you have problems sticking to a calorie limit is ridiculous. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FORMULA..5 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Why are you derailing this thread into a topic it's not? ndj's post was not about why people overeat, of which there are many reasons. His post was about the fact that every way of eating comes down to balancing calories eaten to calories expended, regardless of how you reach it. Also, see @Tacklewasher's post above. CICO does not equal calorie counting.
To be fair, the OP does not pose a question or explicitly suggest a single point for discussion. It makes a minimum of four separate points (or seven separate points if you split out what appear to be intended as elaborations on more general points), including two separate points labeled "finally." You have to expect that people will wander down different paths when so many are presented.
(I'm not saying I don't find Gale's theme that knowing about CICO solves nothing unless you address every factor on both sides of the equation, plus any psychological or behavioral issues that affect adherence, to be a tiresome example of majoring in the minors. But he's attacking the basic premise of the OP, and if that's derailing, the large majority of threads on MFP are derailed by the third post.)
The thing is, he's disputing the indisputable. It's his modus operandi.
Absolutely. I'm just saying that a better response than "you can't even talk about why you think the OP is based on a completely wrong premise" would be to say "here's why your statements about why you think the OP is based on a completely wrong premise miss the point." Fight bad facts and bad logic with good facts and good logic, not by saying "you can't make that argument here." Or ignore him. There's even a button for that.
And I'm just saying that GH isn't even talking about why the OP is wrong. In fact, he agreed further back that CICO is an equation, just as the OP stated. His posts are twisting the thread into the topic of "CICO doesn't explain why people overeat and become obese," which has nothing to do with the OP.
What was more useful was the discussion about whether it's helpful to talk to people about the math behind weight loss instead of just telling them "eat less, move more." I'm a numbers person, so understanding the math and science behind losing/gaining/maintaining weight works for me. I absolutely found it useful to know that my body has a set number of calories it needs to maintain its weight and that the food I eat needs to balance that. Knowing there are two sides of an equation I can manipulate has helped me not only decrease the number of calories I was eating but also increase my normal activity level. I'd question whether it's ever unhelpful for someone to understand CICO.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »tuitnutrition.com/2016/11/obesity-is-hormonal.html
Obesity is (mostly) a Hormonal Issue: Let's Stop Pretending it's Solely About Calories
I agree with the rest CICO just being a math formula can't help us understand why we overeat to the point of becoming obese. We know if we can not find the cause of our own obesity that we will never be able to lose and maintain weight long term with a high degree of success. While hormones are clearly a factor it is but one of several yet it needs to be understood and addressed.
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4013623/
Obesity and Its Metabolic Complications: The Role of Adipokines and the Relationship between Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease
While CICO is a useful tool to estimate Calories In and Calories Out it gets down to hormone management to manage weight successfully long term in humans per weight loss/gain science.
Obesity, Inflammation, Insulin Resistance, Dyslipidemia and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease all seem to impact obese humans at some point before, as or obesity develops.
Weird, I never wasted even a single thought on hormones in my whole life, but like a miracle, as soon as I started paying attention to CICO, my weight moved in exactly the directions and at the speeds the calculators suggested, and that for now 4 years.22 -
So the article posted on the previous page....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2266991/
says
The human body obeys the law of energy conservation [20], which can be expressed as
(1)
where ΔU is the change in stored energy in the body, ΔQ is a change in energy input or intake, and ΔW is a change in energy output or expenditure.
So......
ΔU = The change in your stored energy (i.e fat)
ΔQ = The change in your energy input (i.e your CI)
ΔW = Change in energy output (i.e. your CO)
Guess what this is saying....go ahead, guess....16 -
-
annaskiski wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »
So for the maths experts, what would be the proper way to represent the CICO equation to take into account the presence/impact of known and unknown variables?
CIabc=COxyz?
Or perhaps we should be digging into our bag of fancy math bling and adding in some Σ and such?
See, this is the problem.....
The formula is CI=CO for energy balance.
CALCULATING those two things might be tricky for some people. (Though probably not for most).
i.e.
CI = exactly how much you eat/is cal information for that food correct etc
CO = how much muscle mass you have/daily exercise/hormonal influence.
BUT IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE EQUATION IN ANY WAY. You may just not have the right numbers.
And trying to say its invalid because you have problems sticking to a calorie limit is ridiculous. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FORMULA..
First of all, calm down and put the capital letters away.
I am not saying it changes the equation. The formula I have above *IS* CI=CO. I was just musing whether there would be an easy accommodation to represent assorted variables for people who are worried about the variables without bringing in the equations from Gianfranco's article. You appear to be imagining I am saying things I am not saying.1 -
annaskiski wrote: »So the article posted on the previous page....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2266991/
says
The human body obeys the law of energy conservation [20], which can be expressed as
(1)
where ΔU is the change in stored energy in the body, ΔQ is a change in energy input or intake, and ΔW is a change in energy output or expenditure.
So......
ΔU = The change in your stored energy (i.e fat)
ΔQ = The change in your energy input (i.e your CI)
ΔW = Change in energy output (i.e. your CO)
Guess what this is saying....go ahead, guess....
You make me wish I hadn't sucked so badly in math, physics and chemistry.1
This discussion has been closed.
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