Processed "Gunk" vs "Clean" Eating
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Not going to weigh in on "clean" eating, but I know there's a book about eating healthy while living in a dorm that might be helpful. I believe it's called The Dorm Room Diet. It might have ideas to cope with some of the challenges of eating healthy while not having a kitchen to prepare a lot of things from scratch.0
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »Not to derail this thread too much, though that's probably inevitable, but...
I understand why people balk at terms like clean or junk when talking about foods. But in most cases, it's not hard to understand what someone is trying to get at when asking these types of questions.
There will always be people trying to be funny or snarky or whatever else and posts unhelpful things in response to these types of threads... but for those of us who are trying to be helpful, is there a better way to talk about these types of foods? Better terms to use? These types of threads aren't going away, and I do think they merit conversation for many people.
Regarding "clean" foods... is it better to say something like whole foods?
What about junk food... is there a better term?
Given that the OP explicitly asks "what do you mean by clean," it's odd that you think we should understand what was intended. OP doesn't know what's intended.
I also don't see what's wrong with attempting to define the assumptions in a question or discussion. If we're not talking about the same thing, there's going to be a lot of talking past each other. And since everyone has their own definition of "clean" or "junk" or "processed" or "gunk," the questions have to be asked of each OP, unless they define it in their original post.
Yes, you captured what I was thinking.
To my mind the frustrating thing about the whole "clean eating" discussion is the fact that "clean" is poorly defined. Words are the building blocks of ideas, so a poorly-defined word means a badly thought-out idea.
This is why we hear so much discussion in these kinds of threads where the poster says "To me, clean eating means..." If everyone gets to define their terms like Humpty Dumpty, who said "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less", what kind of meaningful discussion can we have?
We have many vigorous debates about all kinds of topics here: veganism, keto, caloric burn estimates, what to do with the poster above, etc. - but this is the only one where we don't even all know what we're talking about!3 -
Not to derail this thread too much, though that's probably inevitable, but...
I understand why people balk at terms like clean or junk when talking about foods. But in most cases, it's not hard to understand what someone is trying to get at when asking these types of questions.
There will always be people trying to be funny or snarky or whatever else and posts unhelpful things in response to these types of threads... but for those of us who are trying to be helpful, is there a better way to talk about these types of foods? Better terms to use? These types of threads aren't going away, and I do think they merit conversation for many people.
Regarding "clean" foods... is it better to say something like whole foods?
What about junk food... is there a better term?
Haha, I always only eat whole foods, the whole cupcake, the whole pizza, the whole can of Red Bull lol. I actually totally get what you are saying here, that is just what came to my mind when you said whole foods lol. Back to the regularly scheduled discussion.3 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »
What if the dough is dirty? I mean have you seen some of those kitchens?2 -
Not to derail this thread too much, though that's probably inevitable, but...
I understand why people balk at terms like clean or junk when talking about foods. But in most cases, it's not hard to understand what someone is trying to get at when asking these types of questions.
There will always be people trying to be funny or snarky or whatever else and posts unhelpful things in response to these types of threads... but for those of us who are trying to be helpful, is there a better way to talk about these types of foods? Better terms to use? These types of threads aren't going away, and I do think they merit conversation for many people.
Regarding "clean" foods... is it better to say something like whole foods?
What about junk food... is there a better term?
Haha, I always only eat whole foods, the whole cupcake, the whole pizza, the whole can of Red Bull lol. I actually totally get what you are saying here, that is just what came to my mind when you said whole foods lol. Back to the regularly scheduled discussion.
OMG...
...totally going on the whole-foods diet now.
Thanks for the tip. #in2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »
What if the dough is dirty? I mean have you seen some of those kitchens?
I always presumed the debris were spices
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »Not to derail this thread too much, though that's probably inevitable, but...
I understand why people balk at terms like clean or junk when talking about foods. But in most cases, it's not hard to understand what someone is trying to get at when asking these types of questions.
There will always be people trying to be funny or snarky or whatever else and posts unhelpful things in response to these types of threads... but for those of us who are trying to be helpful, is there a better way to talk about these types of foods? Better terms to use? These types of threads aren't going away, and I do think they merit conversation for many people.
Regarding "clean" foods... is it better to say something like whole foods?
What about junk food... is there a better term?
I just call it food. *shrug* Everything else is just extra to me.
Yes.
Perhaps if we get away from the 'good food/bad food' concept, we can focus on the real issue which is the overall diet.
Did the food prevent me meeting my dietary requirements/goals?
No? Then it was a good choice.
Yes? Then I could have (and should have if this is a frequent issue) made a better choice.
Isn't that what a lot of them are trying to do, though? They've realized that certain foods cause more problems than they alleviate and they're looking for a different way of eating. Its the language used that seems to cause controversy.
You mean the people wanting to eat 'clean' or not eat 'junk'?
I presume they want to eat better, whatever that means to them.
Some just want to lose weight and think cutting out that stuff is the fastest or only way to do it.
Others think that if they eat that stuff it means they can't have a good diet.
I don't notice that many who want to change their diets in this way seem to know what exactly their diets are lacking (save appropriate calorie limits if they want to lose or gain weight). I don't notice posts about how they're not meeting macro and micro goals and that's why they want to cut out processed foods and junk. In fact, the one or two threads I remember where OP wanted to eat 'clean' and mentioned macros or micros were about whether it was OK to include protein powder because they weren't meeting protein goals while eating 'clean'.
I do notice posts where people are concerned about not getting enough of a specific macro or micro, but I don't recall one where OP wanted to change their whole diet because of it. They ask 'what foods are good sources of X', and presumably alter their diet to fit more of those things.
Obviously, trigger foods and food sensitivities should be at the least reduced and preferably eliminated. But these wouldn't encompass the entire group of processed foods or the entire group of 'junk' foods - the groups are too broad.
I agree that people are in different places educationally speaking. I think if someone eats a lot of Doritos and mac n cheese and decides to start eating more fresh made salads and grilled chicken, they are in fact attempting to change their macros even if they don't use the proper MFP lingo. Maybe they'll do well and maybe they won't but they are at least attempting to better their health. Eventually they'll come around to discussing adding back in Doritos if they find they still need them and are serious about continuing on. There are people who eliminate certain foods they used to love and find they just don't need it in their lives. To me its just as harmful to tell someone wanting to eat "clean" that they're wrong as it for the "clean" eater to tell others not to eat processed food. Neither are opening the lines of communication, which brings me back to the point I was originally addressing regarding language.
Which to me would be opened up if we got away from terms without a standard definition like 'clean' and 'junk'.
Ask someone what they mean by 'clean' or 'junk' and the next thing you know there's a full-on debate and/or OP gets offended, assuming you are pretending ignorance.
On the other hand, if the topic is 'I want to eat better, help', I can respond with 'what does your diet look like now?', 'Are there specific things you want to improve?' and not be taken for a jerk by OP or spark a bunch of back and forth on the definition of vague
I agree with what you're saying, I do. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect a newbie to use the same terminology as the veteran MFP'ers. And if the veterans have an idea of what the person is asking, why bog the discussion down with a dozen pages of semantics? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just trying to figure out a way to help those just getting started.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »
What if the dough is dirty? I mean have you seen some of those kitchens?
I always presumed the debris were spices
Didn't you ever hear the weight-loss rule that you never mix crushed roach with carbs?1 -
This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/weight-loss/plans/diets/clean-eating/?page=0
Not saying I think it's better than any other eating plan.1 -
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nutmegoreo wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »
What if the dough is dirty? I mean have you seen some of those kitchens?
I always presumed the debris were spices
Didn't you ever hear the weight-loss rule that you never mix crushed roach with carbs?
I am beginning to fear my mom didn't teach me nearly enough about cooking...4 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »Not to derail this thread too much, though that's probably inevitable, but...
I understand why people balk at terms like clean or junk when talking about foods. But in most cases, it's not hard to understand what someone is trying to get at when asking these types of questions.
There will always be people trying to be funny or snarky or whatever else and posts unhelpful things in response to these types of threads... but for those of us who are trying to be helpful, is there a better way to talk about these types of foods? Better terms to use? These types of threads aren't going away, and I do think they merit conversation for many people.
Regarding "clean" foods... is it better to say something like whole foods?
What about junk food... is there a better term?
I just call it food. *shrug* Everything else is just extra to me.
Yes.
Perhaps if we get away from the 'good food/bad food' concept, we can focus on the real issue which is the overall diet.
Did the food prevent me meeting my dietary requirements/goals?
No? Then it was a good choice.
Yes? Then I could have (and should have if this is a frequent issue) made a better choice.
Isn't that what a lot of them are trying to do, though? They've realized that certain foods cause more problems than they alleviate and they're looking for a different way of eating. Its the language used that seems to cause controversy.
You mean the people wanting to eat 'clean' or not eat 'junk'?
I presume they want to eat better, whatever that means to them.
Some just want to lose weight and think cutting out that stuff is the fastest or only way to do it.
Others think that if they eat that stuff it means they can't have a good diet.
I don't notice that many who want to change their diets in this way seem to know what exactly their diets are lacking (save appropriate calorie limits if they want to lose or gain weight). I don't notice posts about how they're not meeting macro and micro goals and that's why they want to cut out processed foods and junk. In fact, the one or two threads I remember where OP wanted to eat 'clean' and mentioned macros or micros were about whether it was OK to include protein powder because they weren't meeting protein goals while eating 'clean'.
I do notice posts where people are concerned about not getting enough of a specific macro or micro, but I don't recall one where OP wanted to change their whole diet because of it. They ask 'what foods are good sources of X', and presumably alter their diet to fit more of those things.
Obviously, trigger foods and food sensitivities should be at the least reduced and preferably eliminated. But these wouldn't encompass the entire group of processed foods or the entire group of 'junk' foods - the groups are too broad.
I agree that people are in different places educationally speaking. I think if someone eats a lot of Doritos and mac n cheese and decides to start eating more fresh made salads and grilled chicken, they are in fact attempting to change their macros even if they don't use the proper MFP lingo. Maybe they'll do well and maybe they won't but they are at least attempting to better their health. Eventually they'll come around to discussing adding back in Doritos if they find they still need them and are serious about continuing on. There are people who eliminate certain foods they used to love and find they just don't need it in their lives. To me its just as harmful to tell someone wanting to eat "clean" that they're wrong as it for the "clean" eater to tell others not to eat processed food. Neither are opening the lines of communication, which brings me back to the point I was originally addressing regarding language.
Which to me would be opened up if we got away from terms without a standard definition like 'clean' and 'junk'.
Ask someone what they mean by 'clean' or 'junk' and the next thing you know there's a full-on debate and/or OP gets offended, assuming you are pretending ignorance.
On the other hand, if the topic is 'I want to eat better, help', I can respond with 'what does your diet look like now?', 'Are there specific things you want to improve?' and not be taken for a jerk by OP or spark a bunch of back and forth on the definition of vague
I agree with what you're saying, I do. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect a newbie to use the same terminology as the veteran MFP'ers. And if the veterans have an idea of what the person is asking, why bog the discussion down with a dozen pages of semantics? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just trying to figure out a way to help those just getting started.
No, can't expect hardly any noobs to know when the boards are littered with that terminology. And any noob that doesn't lurk and take the temperature of the boards before posting wouldn't know even if that weren't the case. A sticky would help a small fraction of noobs, but most don't read them.
Really, the problem is that there is no way to avoid asking what 'clean' or 'junk' means to the OP in order to provide helpful advice. Otherwise, all of the answers are just spit-balling (i.e. contributing to pages of semantics).
ETA: quote tags are wonky, added an extra /quote just so my reply would be separate from the quote0 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/weight-loss/plans/diets/clean-eating/?page=0
Not saying I think it's better than any other eating plan.
What does that even mean? Minimally processed vs somewhat processed?
Look, there are no bad foods just bad diets ...4 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »This article is questionable as it references Katy Perry in the first paragraph but it sums up what I think when someone mentions clean eating.
"At its simplest, clean eating is about eating whole foods, or "real" foods — those that are un- or minimally processed, refined, and handled, making them as close to their natural form as possible. "
But most people translate this as "it's not eating ANY processed foods." Also, for the obsessives like me (and although I didn't call it "clean eating," when I was into something similar of my own making, I was obsessive), as close to nature form as possible isn't much of an out. Is cheese (good artisan cheese) as close to its natural form as possible? Obviously not, as you could drink raw milk or something. Is cheese therefore not clean? Some clean eaters think so, some do not, but to the extent it's about avoiding processed as much as possible it's obviously not, IMO.
Flour -- as minimally processed as possible or not? What if I got a handmill like someone in a book I've read did? What if I knew the mill owner and it was some craft thing -- and one issue with all this junk is that it very quickly becomes a hobby for those with money to spend and who want to feel better about themselves for buying things that most of the country cannot afford. But if we accept that flour and cane sugar is as minimally processed as possible (for what they are) or, heck, used honey instead of sugar, you can make pretty much any high cal thing out there (I am assuming butter is okay under the same principle).
And the nutritional benefit is not from avoiding flavored greek yogurt but only eating homemade yogurt from raw milk. It's from having a diet that's rich in nutrient dense foods and balanced, which you don't have to eschew processed foods (however illogically defined) to do it.
And I totally know you are not arguing in favor of clean eating here.
One thing that just always gets me is to be lectured about how clean eating is important and the rest of us eat poorly from someone who claims to eat NO processed foods but has Panera and protein powder and a ton of other things more processed than my average meal in her diary. The irony chokes me.
But of course that has not (thank goodness!) happened in this thread yet.
I do think it's important to get at what the person is really after and to help them out, as I said before, but to me part of that is educating on what "processing" really means and because it's such a ridiculous buzz word these days and some seem to really think it means "unhealthy" or "bad," explaining that it's a HUGE category of foods.
I also like to get into how processing and some of the other departures from what is strictly natural allow us today to have access to a much more nutritious diet than we might otherwise. For example, in Chicago there's a huge part of the year when I wouldn't have much fruit or veg or many types of fish, etc., without things like processing and it's close ally, the food industry (that freezes fish and brings it far from home to sell, that carts in produce from warmer climates. Not that this is unalloyed good in every way, but it's certainly not as inherently bad as some seem to think.
Curious if you really think this kind of educating is bad. I do think the meaning of words really does matter, although I don't think I ever jump on newbies to MFP for using words I think are not really what they mean or being misled by the clean eating trend into thinking things that aren't true.0 -
I appreciate all of the responses, there are several I would like to quote but that would take a long time. The only reason I used the word gunk is because I wasn't sure how else to phrase it. Also I would like to make it clear that I don't blame processes foods for my weight gain, I was over eating far to much on a daily basis and my activity level dropped a lot as well. I am now trying to re lose this weight and this post was just to see the differences eating more fresh food that doesn't come from a can or box could make on my weight loss.1
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If your goal is straight weight loss all that matters is the calorie deficit ...however, one should always strive to get adequate nutritionI appreciate all of the responses, there are several I would like to quote but that would take a long time. The only reason I used the word gunk is because I wasn't sure how else to phrase it. Also I would like to make it clear that I don't blame processes foods for my weight gain, I was over eating far to much on a daily basis and my activity level dropped a lot as well. I am now trying to re lose this weight and this post was just to see the differences eating more fresh food that doesn't come from a can or box could make on my weight loss.
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I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear1
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I would also like to make it clear that I was in no way saying I wanted to cut out all processes foods, I was just wondering if the increas in the amount of processed food compared to foods like fresh fruits and vegetables, was a reason my cravings are worse this time around and why I am more hungry. I suppose I should have been more clear
I find when I significantly up my vegetable intake I'm more satisfied, but that's generally because I get more bang for my calorie buck.0 -
Not going to weigh in on "clean" eating, but I know there's a book about eating healthy while living in a dorm that might be helpful. I believe it's called The Dorm Room Diet. It might have ideas to cope with some of the challenges of eating healthy while not having a kitchen to prepare a lot of things from scratch.
I'll definitely look into this book. Thanks!0
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