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Give them a food complex or teach them a value of a calorie?
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heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
How about some proof to this?heiliskrimsli wrote: »
Orthorexia was made up out of whole cloth in the mid 1990s so that people who are overweight and obese can have something to feel superior about. The fact is that orthorexia (or orthorexia nervosa as some FA/HAES proponents will claim) is not a clinical diagnosis and does not appear in the DSM-V. It is not recognized as an eating disorder.
Are you a psychiatrist or dietitian?
Orthorexia doesn't just affect those who are overweight/obese. Many of healthy weight and even those that are underweight can develop fear of eating certain foods and food groups. My niece (former anorexic) was afraid of many foods for fear of gaining no weight. No one feels superior about being afraid of something. What absolute horrid crap. I haven't seen you write anything nice or supportive, ever.
Orthorexia nervosa is not currently recognized as a clinical diagnosis in the DSM-5, but many people struggle with symptoms associated with this term.Orthorexia is a term coined by Steven Bratman, MD in 1996. He began to use it with his patients who were overly health-obsessed. It was not meant as a diagnosis;It is not an officially recognized disorder in the DSM-5
And that is from people who consider it an actual mental disorder. Good enough for you, or do you still want to dispute the facts because you don't like them?cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Personally, I think they're just going to end up with food hangups...
As a family, we eat pretty healthy...we teach our kids the value of good nutrition and the kids are allowed treats at our discretion. We're active as a family and my wife and I set the tone in regards to the importance of fitness to an overall healthy way of living. My kids see regular exercise and just being out and being active as totally normal.
Really, at my kid's ages (7 & 4), they don't really need to get all worked up and obsess about calories...they're active and as a family we eat well most of the time...they understand the value of that and the value of having treats here and there but that those things shouldn't be their primary source of food.
IDK..maybe it's because I haven't counted calories in years and one of the reasons I stopped was that I was starting to get consumed and hung up with the numbers...I just don't think it's a very good idea.
Did you teach them about having a budget for money and expenses?
They are 7 and 4 and learning about budgeting with their allowances...we have a spend jar, save jar, and charity jar. Personally, while I think anecdotal comparisons between budget and calories on a sit like this can be beneficial, in real life I don't particularly see them as the same thing.
Most lean, healthy, and fit people I know don't keep a calorie "budget"...and guess what? They're lean, healthy, and fit...because they do the things that lean, healthy, and fit people do. We are teaching our kids how to live a healthy life overall...I don't think they need to start obsessing about calories and numbers at 7 & 4...that's how eating disorders can develop pretty easily.
Calorie counting and whatnot is "normal" on MFP...it's not really "normal" anywhere else. It's quite possible to maintain a healthy weight and whatnot without knowing exactly this many calories or that many calories...people do it all the friggin' time.
It is absolutely absurd to me that anyone thinks knowing how much they're eating is somehow weird, problematic or a sign of an eating disorder.
A fundamental part of good nutrition is consuming the proper amount for one's age, sex and activity level. Given the rate of overweight and obesity as well as the fact that both are increasing, it is asinine to place all the worry on eating disorders so as to eschew such a basic part of nutrition. Kind of like worrying that it's raining and you've got no umbrella when you're on a sinking ship.
You seem pretty bent out of shape...go have a snack...
Making up fake mental illnesses so that people can feel special is a distraction from treating real mental disorders.
What the *kitten* are you talking about? Where did I make up fake mental illnesses? Like seriously, what the *kitten* are you going on about?
Orthorexia / Orthorexia Nervosa is not an actual mental disorder.
What people call that may properly fit under various other mental disorders that are real. By using a term that even the man who first coined it said was not intended to be a diagnosis to claim that it is a specific disorder, you may actually be preventing someone from getting help for the mental illness they actually do have.
You seem very angry with all these expletives. Are you feeling OK?
Serious question - did you read all of that link that you posted?
Yes, you are correct that it's not actually in the DSM-5. But, the NEDA recognizes that it's a problem area. So the fact that it's not officially diagnosed doesn't really mean all that much.While orthorexia is not a condition your doctor will diagnose, recovery can require professional help. A practitioner skilled at treating eating disorders is the best choice. This handout can be used to help the professional understand orthorexia.
eta: In reviewing one of your other comments, yes, it looks like you probably did. Which makes me wonder why you're so bent out of shape about it. Whether it's "officially" recognized or not, it's an issue that the NEDA (and you, yourself) acknowledged.
Even people who promote it as real admit that it is not actually a diagnosis. That's the point.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »I think it's a fine introduction to budgeting and nutrition. It obviously isn't the end-all-be-all, but it's a good start. As they get older and are able to understand more, you can introduce more concepts. As long as it doesn't become problematic - which you'll have to judge - it should be OK.
One question, though - why 150 Cals? That seems like it might be a little low, depending on how active they are - especially with summer vacation coming up.
Kids ages 4-8 need 1200-2000 calories a day as a guideline. 150 calories of "junk food" is about 10% of total calories, which is reasonable. Plus I'd guess they get some additional "treat" calories at friend's, parties, and other summer activities.
They can get additional calories from veggies, whole fruits, etc if they are more active in summer.
Sure, but OP said this was for the weekend - so it's not 10% of total Calories - less than 3%. My thought is that, since it's only once (maybe twice, if they get the treats both weekend days) that a little more would be fine. It's not that I think the kids should get more, just that one full-sized treat (which may be up around 250-300 Cals) wouldn't be inappropriate for a once/twice per week treat. Not my kids, not my call - just my thoughts.0 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
How about some proof to this?heiliskrimsli wrote: »
Orthorexia was made up out of whole cloth in the mid 1990s so that people who are overweight and obese can have something to feel superior about. The fact is that orthorexia (or orthorexia nervosa as some FA/HAES proponents will claim) is not a clinical diagnosis and does not appear in the DSM-V. It is not recognized as an eating disorder.
Are you a psychiatrist or dietitian?
Orthorexia doesn't just affect those who are overweight/obese. Many of healthy weight and even those that are underweight can develop fear of eating certain foods and food groups. My niece (former anorexic) was afraid of many foods for fear of gaining no weight. No one feels superior about being afraid of something. What absolute horrid crap. I haven't seen you write anything nice or supportive, ever.
Orthorexia nervosa is not currently recognized as a clinical diagnosis in the DSM-5, but many people struggle with symptoms associated with this term.Orthorexia is a term coined by Steven Bratman, MD in 1996. He began to use it with his patients who were overly health-obsessed. It was not meant as a diagnosis;It is not an officially recognized disorder in the DSM-5
And that is from people who consider it an actual mental disorder. Good enough for you, or do you still want to dispute the facts because you don't like them?cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Personally, I think they're just going to end up with food hangups...
As a family, we eat pretty healthy...we teach our kids the value of good nutrition and the kids are allowed treats at our discretion. We're active as a family and my wife and I set the tone in regards to the importance of fitness to an overall healthy way of living. My kids see regular exercise and just being out and being active as totally normal.
Really, at my kid's ages (7 & 4), they don't really need to get all worked up and obsess about calories...they're active and as a family we eat well most of the time...they understand the value of that and the value of having treats here and there but that those things shouldn't be their primary source of food.
IDK..maybe it's because I haven't counted calories in years and one of the reasons I stopped was that I was starting to get consumed and hung up with the numbers...I just don't think it's a very good idea.
Did you teach them about having a budget for money and expenses?
They are 7 and 4 and learning about budgeting with their allowances...we have a spend jar, save jar, and charity jar. Personally, while I think anecdotal comparisons between budget and calories on a sit like this can be beneficial, in real life I don't particularly see them as the same thing.
Most lean, healthy, and fit people I know don't keep a calorie "budget"...and guess what? They're lean, healthy, and fit...because they do the things that lean, healthy, and fit people do. We are teaching our kids how to live a healthy life overall...I don't think they need to start obsessing about calories and numbers at 7 & 4...that's how eating disorders can develop pretty easily.
Calorie counting and whatnot is "normal" on MFP...it's not really "normal" anywhere else. It's quite possible to maintain a healthy weight and whatnot without knowing exactly this many calories or that many calories...people do it all the friggin' time.
It is absolutely absurd to me that anyone thinks knowing how much they're eating is somehow weird, problematic or a sign of an eating disorder.
A fundamental part of good nutrition is consuming the proper amount for one's age, sex and activity level. Given the rate of overweight and obesity as well as the fact that both are increasing, it is asinine to place all the worry on eating disorders so as to eschew such a basic part of nutrition. Kind of like worrying that it's raining and you've got no umbrella when you're on a sinking ship.
You seem pretty bent out of shape...go have a snack...
Making up fake mental illnesses so that people can feel special is a distraction from treating real mental disorders.
What the *kitten* are you talking about? Where did I make up fake mental illnesses? Like seriously, what the *kitten* are you going on about?
Orthorexia / Orthorexia Nervosa is not an actual mental disorder.
What people call that may properly fit under various other mental disorders that are real. By using a term that even the man who first coined it said was not intended to be a diagnosis to claim that it is a specific disorder, you may actually be preventing someone from getting help for the mental illness they actually do have.
You seem very angry with all these expletives. Are you feeling OK?
It doesn't have to be a recognized disorder, and there is nothing wrong with using that term to describe a real issue that affects real people negatively.
If someone isolates themselves away in fear of social meetings that involve food, gets gradually pushed out of social life because they can't shut up about other people eating unhealthy foods, get a panic attack in fear of succumbing to the temptation of eating that cookie, or gets depressed and beats themselves up if they do, that's a real issue and it involves being obsessed with healthy eating. Call it obsessive compulsive behavior around food, call it anxiety (those are recognized illnesses), call it eating disorder OSFED, or call it what you will, including the easy to understand "orthorexia" it's still an issue.
That's like jumping at calling someone of normal weight with very worrisome anorexic behaviors "anorexic" just because they don't meet the "underweight" part of the condition. It's understood, and it's a real issue.
You can nearly feel the suffocating anxiety in some of the posts here when people are obsessing about eating clean and post about going out or committing the horrible act of eating half a doughnut. You can tell they're on their way to a very rocky path.3 -
So here's the thing about mental illness diagnoses. You see a psychiatrist for x thing that appears to be the symptoms of x thing. They take a full background of your life, work and family history. They discuss where you see there are problems or where others may have mentioned something to you. They are used to people not fully disclosing and so adept at reading between the lines. They will either refer you to other services/more specialist care or they will begin a treatment plan. And then reassess as time goes on. It's rare there is an immediate diagnosis or taking self diagnosis at its word.
I have been through this process, I was referred after treatment was exhausted with her with no positive long term outcome. I saw a psychiatrist and after several months a tentative diagnosis was made. I continued to observe myself and felt the diagnosis was accurate. I am still under treatment and there is always a possibility my illness will change or it is thought it may be incorrect and another type of treatment tried.
So to say that labelling someone as orthorexic will prevent them from appropriate treatment is ignorance about how mental illness treatment is diagnosed and treated.
And whilst orthorexia may well not be in the DSM at this point, neither were many others at one point. With it being quite a "modern" development there is every chance it will be recognised and added at some point in the future. Much like Manic Depression was renamed Bipolar Disorder with sub diagnoses.3 -
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I'm not American, therefore sorry for being rough. But I'd never let my kids think that chips and artificial sweets are their treats. They should eat good real healthy food, not that garbage. Dark chocolate, fruits, dried fruits, even real deserts like macaroon or fruit tarts are much better. But not that garbage and especially presented as "treats", which creates a wrong image in their minds for their whole life.
I know it's popular on the MFP to make it all about calories. But calories counting is only to control your weight, which kids don't really need. What they do need is to learn to choose good quality food to live long and healthy life, and not making food their life priority and obsession.
OK, so l figure my 2nd grader takes in the ball park of 10,500 calories a week (1500 a day), if I allotted him 150 calories (on the weekend) of said snacks in that drawer that's about 1.5% of his caloric intake for the week. If the rest of the 10,350 calories he takes in the rest of the week come from healthy more nutritious food, why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in a while?
It certainly isn't damaging healthwise...
I posted a similar sentiment to YaGigi in that I don't think junk food should be classified as treats as it is neither good nor special nor should it be viewed as a way to reward oneself. To answer "why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in awhile?" Yes it's absolutely fine to teach children they can eat junk now and then and be healthy. It's the teaching them that these particular foods are treats that is the concern. With my kids, they know which foods are healthy and which are junk. They have also decided on their own what foods they love and will treat themselves to. Neither of my children chose any junk food as their treats. My elder daughter loves fruit salad my younger daughter loves mac and cheese. I have never denied them any crisps or candies...they can have them whenever they want but they know calories and know a little bit of these things goes a long way/creates a lot of energy so they know to not eat a lot at once. I've thrown out Halloween candy because they don't get around to eating all of it. Now every family and child is different, but for our family blocking off junk food and calling it treats would have made my kids desire it far more than it's worth because the food would be viewed psychologically as a treat and a reward for a hard weeks work at school or cleaning their room. Even if they didn't especially like the junk food, their minds are so impressionable they would still want the junk food as it's a symbol of their parent's approval and pride. Then they'd eat it and act like they want more because that is communicating to the parent that the kid wants too please their parent and get the reward/treat as often as possible. I just feel it creates an unhealthy relationship with junk food by glamourising it.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »You can nearly feel the suffocating anxiety in some of the posts here when people are obsessing about eating clean and post about going out or committing the horrible act of eating half a doughnut. You can tell they're on their way to a very rocky path.
I see a lot of the opposite here, actually. What I see is a lot of people who drop a load in their pants over someone not wanting to eat chips and ice cream and cookies as if there's something horribly wrong with that, and with not being a "volume eater". Posters have acted horrified that a child might see their parent using a food scale because the sight of that, or even being told "I'm weighing my food so I don't eat too much" will cause an eating disorder.
There's also a large tendency here amongst certain posters to react very negatively to teaching kids anything about portion control through empirical measurement (calories and weights) because people are quick to label it disordered. Take, for example, the myriad of threads about Halo Top and how part of the reason that it's so wonderful is that you can eat the entire pint in one sitting, or have a pint of it a day. Volume eating like that strikes me as more of a problem than does a decision to eat clean and weigh portions.
Orthorexia, like it or not, is not a diagnosis. It's funny that people have railed against me about whether I have qualifications as a dietitian (which by the way has nothing to do with psychiatry) because that makes me unqualified to speak about this, and then turned around and said the DSM-V, which is the authority on mental illnesses and diagnostic criteria is wrong. I guess the appeal to authority goes out the window when an authoritative source is cited. No matter how much you want to point fingers at someone else's orderly eating, or their choice to eat "clean", it's not a disease to do so. If they have obsessive compulsive tendencies, they would be far better off seeing a qualified doctor about that than being given advice about how to eat junk food.1 -
I'm not American, therefore sorry for being rough. But I'd never let my kids think that chips and artificial sweets are their treats. They should eat good real healthy food, not that garbage. Dark chocolate, fruits, dried fruits, even real deserts like macaroon or fruit tarts are much better. But not that garbage and especially presented as "treats", which creates a wrong image in their minds for their whole life.
I know it's popular on the MFP to make it all about calories. But calories counting is only to control your weight, which kids don't really need. What they do need is to learn to choose good quality food to live long and healthy life, and not making food their life priority and obsession.
OK, so l figure my 2nd grader takes in the ball park of 10,500 calories a week (1500 a day), if I allotted him 150 calories (on the weekend) of said snacks in that drawer that's about 1.5% of his caloric intake for the week. If the rest of the 10,350 calories he takes in the rest of the week come from healthy more nutritious food, why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in a while?
It certainly isn't damaging healthwise...
I posted a similar sentiment to YaGigi in that I don't think junk food should be classified as treats as it is neither good nor special nor should it be viewed as a way to reward oneself. To answer "why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in awhile?" Yes it's absolutely fine to teach children they can eat junk now and then and be healthy. It's the teaching them that these particular foods are treats that is the concern. With my kids, they know which foods are healthy and which are junk. They have also decided on their own what foods they love and will treat themselves to. Neither of my children chose any junk food as their treats. My elder daughter loves fruit salad my younger daughter loves mac and cheese. I have never denied them any crisps or candies...they can have them whenever they want but they know calories and know a little bit of these things goes a long way/creates a lot of energy so they know to not eat a lot at once. I've thrown out Halloween candy because they don't get around to eating all of it. Now every family and child is different, but for our family blocking off junk food and calling it treats would have made my kids desire it far more than it's worth because the food would be viewed psychologically as a treat and a reward for a hard weeks work at school or cleaning their room. Even if they didn't especially like the junk food, their minds are so impressionable they would still want the junk food as it's a symbol of their parent's approval and pride. Then they'd eat it and act like they want more because that is communicating to the parent that the kid wants too please their parent and get the reward/treat as often as possible. I just feel it creates an unhealthy relationship with junk food by glamourising it.
I guess that's where we'll have to disagree. I don't see it as glamourizing it, it's a treat...no more no less. But at the same time it's teaching the kid that this specific type of food should make up a small portion of their diet, but it's still okay to have (same thing as mac and cheese)... Nowhere is did I (or the OP) call it a reward for doing something. They got 150 calories (about 1% of their weekly intake) from the cupboard. Don't see the big deal.
As a coach at high schools and colleges it was pretty normal to see the kids that came from a background of where "junk food" isn't allowed at home, they'll be the first ones to go after it on the road because they know they'll never get it / or never got it at home.
My kids love watermelon, that's usually their "treat" of choice and if we didn't moderate it we'd never be able to keep it in the house...same thing with oranges. I too have thrown out haloween and easter candy, I'm pretty confident every parent has. Hell, at haloween last year I found their bag from the year before that we still half full.0 -
I'm not American, therefore sorry for being rough. But I'd never let my kids think that chips and artificial sweets are their treats. They should eat good real healthy food, not that garbage. Dark chocolate, fruits, dried fruits, even real deserts like macaroon or fruit tarts are much better. But not that garbage and especially presented as "treats", which creates a wrong image in their minds for their whole life.
I know it's popular on the MFP to make it all about calories. But calories counting is only to control your weight, which kids don't really need. What they do need is to learn to choose good quality food to live long and healthy life, and not making food their life priority and obsession.
OK, so l figure my 2nd grader takes in the ball park of 10,500 calories a week (1500 a day), if I allotted him 150 calories (on the weekend) of said snacks in that drawer that's about 1.5% of his caloric intake for the week. If the rest of the 10,350 calories he takes in the rest of the week come from healthy more nutritious food, why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in a while?
It certainly isn't damaging healthwise...
I posted a similar sentiment to YaGigi in that I don't think junk food should be classified as treats as it is neither good nor special nor should it be viewed as a way to reward oneself. To answer "why not teach him it's okay to have something small like this once in awhile?" Yes it's absolutely fine to teach children they can eat junk now and then and be healthy. It's the teaching them that these particular foods are treats that is the concern. With my kids, they know which foods are healthy and which are junk. They have also decided on their own what foods they love and will treat themselves to. Neither of my children chose any junk food as their treats. My elder daughter loves fruit salad my younger daughter loves mac and cheese. I have never denied them any crisps or candies...they can have them whenever they want but they know calories and know a little bit of these things goes a long way/creates a lot of energy so they know to not eat a lot at once. I've thrown out Halloween candy because they don't get around to eating all of it. Now every family and child is different, but for our family blocking off junk food and calling it treats would have made my kids desire it far more than it's worth because the food would be viewed psychologically as a treat and a reward for a hard weeks work at school or cleaning their room. Even if they didn't especially like the junk food, their minds are so impressionable they would still want the junk food as it's a symbol of their parent's approval and pride. Then they'd eat it and act like they want more because that is communicating to the parent that the kid wants too please their parent and get the reward/treat as often as possible. I just feel it creates an unhealthy relationship with junk food by glamourising it.
I guess that's where we'll have to disagree. I don't see it as glamourizing it, it's a treat...no more no less. But at the same time it's teaching the kid that this specific type of food should make up a small portion of their diet, but it's still okay to have (same thing as mac and cheese)... Nowhere is did I (or the OP) call it a reward for doing something. They got 150 calories (about 1% of their weekly intake) from the cupboard. Don't see the big deal.
Exactly. It's not something we take away if they're naughty or they can't have if they don't finish their dinner etc. It's just something they get; I'm certainly not making a big deal about it at all lol
0 -
Europe.
1 kid.
Obviously kids don't want to eat broccoli as a treat. But a macaroon, pineapple, gelato or frozen yogurt or a strawberry tart is so much better then this trashy fried stuff made from chemicals and I don't know what else.
We in general have culture of enjoying good quality food and beautiful life, and fried chemicals are not a part of it.
You may want to be careful, high horses buck too.
2
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