McDougall Diet
Replies
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Tried30UserNames wrote: »notlunchmuffin wrote: »i KNEW almost everyone would hate this thread. imo mcdougal is awesome. they crucified jesus too so don't worry about it op
The majority of people on this site do seem to be avidly against any type of alternative or experimental ways of eating or anything similar, and they like to gang up and silence any dissenting opinion. It is just MFP's way and you have to learn to live with it. The thing I find most humorous about this slavish devotion to one's local gp is that doctors don't even study nutrition in medical school for more than about 30 seconds. Your doctor is likely not as knowledgeable about nutrition and weight loss as your average new Weight Watchers member.
The majority of the people on this site are avidly against named diets that have arbitrary rules that discourage balanced eating.
McDougall is cool in that he's not afraid of starch, but his stance on fat and protein is... odd.
Why are you implying that people here get their ideas on nutrition from a "slavish devotion" to information gleaned from gp's?
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Tried30UserNames wrote: »notlunchmuffin wrote: »i KNEW almost everyone would hate this thread. imo mcdougal is awesome. they crucified jesus too so don't worry about it op
The majority of people on this site do seem to be avidly against any type of alternative or experimental ways of eating or anything similar, and they like to gang up and silence any dissenting opinion. It is just MFP's way and you have to learn to live with it. The thing I find most humorous about this slavish devotion to one's local gp is that doctors don't even study nutrition in medical school for more than about 30 seconds. Your doctor is likely not as knowledgeable about nutrition and weight loss as your average new Weight Watchers member.
i beg to differ. most people on this site are against woo and unnecessary restrictions which an op presents as necessary to weight loss and which are not, in fact, necessary for weight loss.
nobody says "don't do keto" "don't be vegan" "don't drink green tea." but there is going to be push back always if what you're doing is being propounded as the ONE TRUE WAY. or if you extrapolate what works for you as a hard and fast set of rules that should work for everyone. the only works for everyone is CICO, how you get there is up to you and that's what is constantly being said. this is especially true if someone comes to the forums and says that they WANT to be doing a particular diet but they struggle with it, because it's important for people to know that there are a million ways to get to CI<CO.10 -
singingflutela ... Did he? The only thing I've witnessed on the videos I watched was testimonials of those that have had success with the diet. Testimonials from folks.
The thing is, I am not here to speak for him and defend his diet, but it looks super interesting for me and better than 99.9% of the diets out there - especially the idiotic LCHF diets ...
Well I have been on an "idiotic" LCHF diet for over a year and half for the purpose of controlling RA and I have had great success. I don't know why you would post insulting other people's choices and then get offended that you didn't get support. Basically you are your own person and if vegan works for you go for it. It doesn't work for me. The less grains I eat the better I feel. Honestly the less vegetables I eat the better I feel. It sounds like you have thrived on a similar diet in the past so why not try it again. I'm not going call whatever diet makes you feel best idiotic because to each their own.
The thing that I think is idiotic (poor word choice) is promoting more meat consumption considering what is happening with the environment knowing that how we 'grow' that meat is one of the biggest culprits in environmental degradation (not to mention how absolutely ethically horrible factory farms are to animals themselves) ... Also, I have a few friends that went along with the diet and went into a bit of an overdrive stuffing themselves with steaks and little of anything else and it for some reason got on my nerves.
If it worked for your RA, more power to you.
It's just that to promote this diet as a way for everyone to eat ... doesn't seem very sustainable.
I apologize for offending, that was actually not my intention. I just felt attacked for mentioning McDougall's diet and I guess I got defensive.1 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »Tried30UserNames wrote: »notlunchmuffin wrote: »i KNEW almost everyone would hate this thread. imo mcdougal is awesome. they crucified jesus too so don't worry about it op
The majority of people on this site do seem to be avidly against any type of alternative or experimental ways of eating or anything similar, and they like to gang up and silence any dissenting opinion. It is just MFP's way and you have to learn to live with it. The thing I find most humorous about this slavish devotion to one's local gp is that doctors don't even study nutrition in medical school for more than about 30 seconds. Your doctor is likely not as knowledgeable about nutrition and weight loss as your average new Weight Watchers member.
i beg to differ. most people on this site are against woo and unnecessary restrictions which an op presents as necessary to weight loss and which are not, in fact, necessary for weight loss.
nobody says "don't do keto" "don't be vegan" "don't drink green tea." but there is going to be push back always if what you're doing is being propounded as the ONE TRUE WAY. or if you extrapolate what works for you as a hard and fast set of rules that should work for everyone. the only works for everyone is CICO, how you get there is up to you and that's what is constantly being said. this is especially true if someone comes to the forums and says that they WANT to be doing a particular diet but they struggle with it, because it's important for people to know that there are a million ways to get to CI<CO.
OMG, am I actually saying that? I think you need to re-read what I wrote because I did not say it - ever.
What I did say, though, is that I do not need to lose weight like three separate times.
I also said that I'm interested in this diet for following reasons: 1. to diminish inflammation in my body, 2. to become vegan, 3. to become healthier ...
I never said that his way is 'the one true way.' If he says so, that's on him and we're all adults (hopefully) and have brains and can decide on our own. I want to give this diet a try. I came on here to seek support. Instead ... well, the thread speaks for itself.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »There's a thread running right now in the general discussion section with a video link to a talk by Brad Schoenfeld on dieting and fat loss. One of the points he addresses is the importance of protein intake during dieting and why this is so.
There is nothing wrong with veganism (I'm a vegetarian and toy with the idea of transitioning one day myself) or consuming a diet that has a lot of starch. McDougall is weirdly anti-protein, though, and this has serious implications for dieting AND aging people. The importance of preservation of muscle while dieting and while aging cannot be stressed enough. Adequate protein intake and resistance training of some sort protect against lean tissue loss.
Even if you're not dieting, you will be getting older. Sarcopenia is a scary, scary thing. Look up pictures of x-rays of older people with it.
I urge you to carefully consider your choices with undertaking any eating plan that demonizes any macro-nutrient, especially one as important as protein.
Thanks for the suggestion. Finally a comment that doesn't make fun of or criticise my choice/the diet and instead makes a real point.
I'll take that into consideration.0 -
singingflutela ... Did he? The only thing I've witnessed on the videos I watched was testimonials of those that have had success with the diet. Testimonials from folks.
The thing is, I am not here to speak for him and defend his diet, but it looks super interesting for me and better than 99.9% of the diets out there - especially the idiotic LCHF diets ...
Well I have been on an "idiotic" LCHF diet for over a year and half for the purpose of controlling RA and I have had great success. I don't know why you would post insulting other people's choices and then get offended that you didn't get support. Basically you are your own person and if vegan works for you go for it. It doesn't work for me. The less grains I eat the better I feel. Honestly the less vegetables I eat the better I feel. It sounds like you have thrived on a similar diet in the past so why not try it again. I'm not going call whatever diet makes you feel best idiotic because to each their own.
The thing that I think is idiotic (poor word choice) is promoting more meat consumption considering what is happening with the environment knowing that how we 'grow' that meat is one of the biggest culprits in environmental degradation (not to mention how absolutely ethically horrible factory farms are to animals themselves) ...
Most people who don't LCHF eat meat.
Some people who LCHF don't eat meat.
Many or most people who transition from a higher carb diet to LCHF do not increase the amount of meat they eat.
Therefore, calling LCHF out specifically based on your views about meat-eating doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
I also find that some or even a lot of people who LCHF (as well as various other nutrition or ethically-concerned meat eaters) are more likely to focus on sources of meat other than factory farming and which are less problematic for the environment. They may be interested in consuming grass fed or free range animals, buy from local farms they are familiar with, hunt, buy from people they know who hunt and fish, etc. There's also a legitimate argument as to whether there are more environmentally-sound ways to raise animals for food than we currently do. I have relatives who have been ranchers in western Nebraska for some time, and there are areas around there and in the west of the country in general where grazing animals is probably more environmentally appropriate than trying to farm (and irrigate). There are reasons why this is not where our farming dollar is focused -- factory farming is more profitable -- but it's not so simple as meat or not if you want to make it about the environmental issues, IMO.Also, I have a few friends that went along with the diet and went into a bit of an overdrive stuffing themselves with steaks and little of anything else and it for some reason got on my nerves.
IMO, this would be a silly approach to a LCHF diet. Not that people don't do it, I'm sure they do, but that seems like more of a high protein diet.3 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »Tried30UserNames wrote: »notlunchmuffin wrote: »i KNEW almost everyone would hate this thread. imo mcdougal is awesome. they crucified jesus too so don't worry about it op
The majority of people on this site do seem to be avidly against any type of alternative or experimental ways of eating or anything similar, and they like to gang up and silence any dissenting opinion. It is just MFP's way and you have to learn to live with it. The thing I find most humorous about this slavish devotion to one's local gp is that doctors don't even study nutrition in medical school for more than about 30 seconds. Your doctor is likely not as knowledgeable about nutrition and weight loss as your average new Weight Watchers member.
i beg to differ. most people on this site are against woo and unnecessary restrictions which an op presents as necessary to weight loss and which are not, in fact, necessary for weight loss.
nobody says "don't do keto" "don't be vegan" "don't drink green tea." but there is going to be push back always if what you're doing is being propounded as the ONE TRUE WAY. or if you extrapolate what works for you as a hard and fast set of rules that should work for everyone. the only works for everyone is CICO, how you get there is up to you and that's what is constantly being said. this is especially true if someone comes to the forums and says that they WANT to be doing a particular diet but they struggle with it, because it's important for people to know that there are a million ways to get to CI<CO.
Exactly this!1 -
VintageFeline ... I have psoriasis guttate (that's an autoimmune disease) and I've recently been having issues with specific joints where I have mild but persistent pain.
I don't go to doctors, I usually try to take care of whatever issue I have on my own and go to a doctor only if it's gotten so bad I cannot manage it on my own. Plus, most doctors do one thing and one thing only: prescribe medication.
Flaring in the big toe sounds like goute2 -
paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
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rakowskidp wrote: »singingflutela ... Did he? The only thing I've witnessed on the videos I watched was testimonials of those that have had success with the diet. Testimonials from folks.
The thing is, I am not here to speak for him and defend his diet, but it looks super interesting for me and better than 99.9% of the diets out there - especially the idiotic LCHF diets ...
My wife has lost 100+ pounds on LCHF, her cholesterol and glucose numbers are pristine, and her ulcerative colitis is in remission. I'm not a big fan of LCHF, and in fact eat almost the opposite (low-ish fat, high-ish carb vegetarian), but her results speak for themselves.
That is very good! I'm very happy for your wife.
I expressed myself poorly.
The part that I consider idiotic about the diet is the promotion of elevated consumption of meat because of my environmental concerns. I should have said that initially.0 -
So this guy can cure all of these autoimmune diseases through food, but he wont tell you how to do it with out charging you? Sounds like a wonderful man. It's great that you will go to the doctor so they can tell you what is wrong with you but won't trust what they say otherwise.
Hmm. No, he doesn't and he doesn't claim he does.
He's not charging me anything. His start up program is for free and all the information about he diet is also available free on the internet. I bought his recipe book because I've heard good things about it and I suck at cooking - need lots of inspiration, etc.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »No, I've never heard/nor done the diet and probably would never do so. I don't think I should have to buy anything (besides my own food) to make a diet work. If his diet is mainly a vegan one, then why do you have to buy products and not just vegetables, fruits, soy/tempeh you'd like to cook with?
I am not a fan of the McDougall diet (I think it restricts too many foods and promotes an unhealthy fear of fat), but you don't *have* to buy specific products to do it. McDougall sells some convenience-type foods that fit into the guidelines of the diet (like soup cups), but you can do the plan without any of them. It's no different than Weight Watchers have some branded foods that easily fit into the plan.
Oh ok. When she mentioned she bought some products it sounded like the only way to progress with the diet was by buying his products.
It's basically just cutting down on protein and fat, eliminating animal products and vegetable oils (added oils in general), not eating that many nuts either, and getting most of your calories from starches (potatoes, bread, pasta).
I heard a discussion with him about his disagreement with Fuhrman, and he actually thinks that too many vegetables and fruits is not recommended and starches as the main source of calories is better because nature and we don't know the effect of eating so many micronutrients as with Fuhrman.
If someone wants to try it, whatever, but I fail to see why one would pick it over other forms of veganism (which I think is great for ethical reasons or if you like it), unless you just want an excuse to eat lots of starches.
Haha, yeah, I actually really like starches, but I did not think about it this way ... before now
I have to say I adore sweet potatoes ... I could just eat sweet potatoes for the rest of my life and be happy, haha. 0 -
paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).7 -
singingflutelady wrote: »GottaBurnEm ... I see what you are saying. That said, the man has so many testimonials from folks that saw a major decline in their symptoms especially in those with RA (rheumatoid arthritis), that I simply can't overlook that. I also don't see how he could be a quack considering all he advocates for is pretty much a vegan diet, minus the vegetable oils. I mean, even on his website, folks are recommending me another author's books for recipes and inspiration ... He just doesn't strike me as a charlatan. There are others that do (they usually are not actual medical doctors + internists), but he seems legit to me. Can I vouch for that? No, but I've never been a diet follower. I've actually never ever followed a diet in my life. I've only been a vegan because of animal welfare before.
I myself actually believe that most of our ailments come from food. I know how food affects me. I know how I feel after I eat a huge sugar filled candy bar vs. salad with no dressing or oil. I can totally see that if the lining of our intestine gets eroded, it allows things to enter our bloodstream that were never meant to and that can kick off an autoimmune reaction. This is something that not only McDougall says, there are a plethora of other docs that say the very same thing.
What would it cost to follow a vegan diet for a month to see if anything gets better? Can't hurt. Literally - cannot hurt.
IN my case, my psoriasis was kicked off by a strep throat infection. I have it super mild - it persists only on my scalp, but it's not bad, if I leave it alone, it doesn't bother me, if I start digging, I'm digging myself into a hole... I have a spot or two somewhere on my body from time to time, but nothing that actually bothers me. I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
I'm a little let down because I started this thread to get more support, not to have people talk me down from it and call the author of the diet a quack ... without an iota of proof.
Isn't the fact that he claims cures for incurable diseases proof enough? That's pretty much the definition of a quack.
I checked and he doesn't seem to claim any 'cure.' He does claim that most of our autoimmune/chronic diseases stem from what we eat ... which seems rather logical to me, plus he is not the only doctor saying that.
Also, I like the fact he is an actual medical doctor ...0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »GottaBurnEm ... I see what you are saying. That said, the man has so many testimonials from folks that saw a major decline in their symptoms especially in those with RA (rheumatoid arthritis), that I simply can't overlook that. I also don't see how he could be a quack considering all he advocates for is pretty much a vegan diet, minus the vegetable oils. I mean, even on his website, folks are recommending me another author's books for recipes and inspiration ... He just doesn't strike me as a charlatan. There are others that do (they usually are not actual medical doctors + internists), but he seems legit to me. Can I vouch for that? No, but I've never been a diet follower. I've actually never ever followed a diet in my life. I've only been a vegan because of animal welfare before.
I myself actually believe that most of our ailments come from food. I know how food affects me. I know how I feel after I eat a huge sugar filled candy bar vs. salad with no dressing or oil. I can totally see that if the lining of our intestine gets eroded, it allows things to enter our bloodstream that were never meant to and that can kick off an autoimmune reaction. This is something that not only McDougall says, there are a plethora of other docs that say the very same thing.
What would it cost to follow a vegan diet for a month to see if anything gets better? Can't hurt. Literally - cannot hurt.
IN my case, my psoriasis was kicked off by a strep throat infection. I have it super mild - it persists only on my scalp, but it's not bad, if I leave it alone, it doesn't bother me, if I start digging, I'm digging myself into a hole... I have a spot or two somewhere on my body from time to time, but nothing that actually bothers me. I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
I'm a little let down because I started this thread to get more support, not to have people talk me down from it and call the author of the diet a quack ... without an iota of proof.
Isn't the fact that he claims cures for incurable diseases proof enough? That's pretty much the definition of a quack. I checked and he doesn't seem to claim any 'cure.' He does claim that most of our autoimmune/chronic diseases stem from what we eat ... which seems rather logical to me, plus he is not the only doctor saying that.
Also, I like the fact he is an actual medical doctor ...
How is that logical when autoimmune diseases are, for the most part, genetic?3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).
How do you know that his treatment doesn't help those with MS? What are you basing your judgment call on? He does seem to be basing lots of his science on other scientists' research. Look, I'm not saying he's got 'the' cure, but maybe he does have something? Maybe there's not just *one* cure for a disease? I really don't get why folks are so repulsed by it ...
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janejellyroll wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).
How do you know that his treatment doesn't help those with MS? What are you basing your judgment call on? He does seem to be basing lots of his science on other scientists' research. Look, I'm not saying he's got 'the' cure, but maybe he does have something? Maybe there's not just *one* cure for a disease? I really don't get why folks are so repulsed by it ...
There is no cure for MS.
That's the point.
Anyone who uses the word "cure" in a sentence with MS is making an outrageous claim.
MS sufferers experience the disease in widely varying ways, and for some it flares and remits. Make no mistake, someone in remission is not "cured". They still have MS. It's merely managed at that point.5 -
FYI: the word "cure" is used many times on this page of McDougall "success stories." Some of the time it's used in relation to diseases/disorders that are often helped by weight loss (high blood pressure, Type 2 Diabetes), but it's also used in relation to things like arthritis, autoimmune disorders, and acne. There are also stories about the diet as a "treatment" for cancer and a "cure" for Chohn's Disease.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/3 -
@misch_ka I know you feel the need to defend your choice. I think people have made very valid points about this guy, but as I said about Furhman, just take what advice is useful from McDougall, and go for it. You'll know soon enough if it is working for you or not. Your choice is not wrong as long as you know you shouldn't expect miracles, which you have stated you are not. So start with it, and adjust it as you go along if needed. However it turns out, I wish you luck.
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paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
Why, if it actually did help MS, would you expect it to help psoriasis. Brain lesions are very different from overproduction of skin or joint swelling.
And if it did help MS, after all these decades, there should be an actual scientific study about it. I know this diet has been around for 30 or 40 years. That's plenty of time for an actual study or two.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).
How do you know that his treatment doesn't help those with MS? What are you basing your judgment call on? He does seem to be basing lots of his science on other scientists' research. Look, I'm not saying he's got 'the' cure, but maybe he does have something? Maybe there's not just *one* cure for a disease? I really don't get why folks are so repulsed by it ...
I have no idea if it helps those with MS, "help" isn't the claim that is being made. The claim that is being made is that 90% of those in the early stages of MS will be able to stop their disease through diet. Stop, not help. And the word "cure" is applied by McDougall himself to this process.
I haven't done the research myself, but there are two options to choose from here.
The first option is that there is, in fact, a cure for 90% of MS cases but that this is being ignored by doctors and researchers who have dedicated their lives to treating and researching MS and they're fine with watching people suffer and die from something that is completely preventable. The second option is that a man who makes his living selling diet information is using inflated claims for the result of his diet in order to spur sales of his books (and the pricey live-in programs sold on his website, $6,060 per person or $5,460 if you agree to share a room).
Which do you think is more likely?3 -
Precisely. If this woe is as miraculous as it sounds, there oughta be a few studies that prove it.Why, if it actually did help MS, would you expect it to help psoriasis. Brain lesions are very different from overproduction of skin or joint swelling.
And if it did help MS, after all these decades, there should be an actual scientific study about it. I know this diet has been around for 30 or 40 years. That's plenty of time for an actual study or two.
1 -
OP, are you still getting routine bloodwork panels done, even if you're not going to the doctor on a regular basis? Here's the numbers that McDougall says we all need to be at-
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/free-mcdougall-program/steps-to-recovery/track-your-progress/
I get bloodwork done twice a year, due to my medical history, so I just pulled out my last panel and I found it interesting that I'm solidly within the ranges that he recommends, and my last test was done while I was eating a fairly typical SAD woe. I wonder what McDougall would do with that, since he claims that many of the foods I eat are flat out poison and is wreaking havoc on my health. This is why I just can't respect or trust what he's promoting.
eta: clarification
1 -
I just listened to one of the "success" stories where the claim was made that the diet "cured" RA.
McDougall came on at the end and explained his theory on why autoimmune diseases are diet based.
LEAKY GUT. (For those who don't know what this is, it's the false theory that the gum membrane is permeable and that undigested proteins pass through it and the body recognizes these as invaders and forms antibodies against them. The whole thing is whack and I cannot square it with how there are genes present for certain autoimmune diseases like Chron's, RA, and celiac disease.).
Save me.
OP. McDougall is basing his claims on diet helping autoimmune conditions on a flawed premise. Leaky gut is psuedo-science and is laughed at in serious medical circles.
Again, be a vegan if you'd like. Eat whole foods, they're great. But find someone who gives sound advice and doesn't make outlandish claims to get your nutrition advice from.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »GottaBurnEm ... I see what you are saying. That said, the man has so many testimonials from folks that saw a major decline in their symptoms especially in those with RA (rheumatoid arthritis), that I simply can't overlook that. I also don't see how he could be a quack considering all he advocates for is pretty much a vegan diet, minus the vegetable oils. I mean, even on his website, folks are recommending me another author's books for recipes and inspiration ... He just doesn't strike me as a charlatan. There are others that do (they usually are not actual medical doctors + internists), but he seems legit to me. Can I vouch for that? No, but I've never been a diet follower. I've actually never ever followed a diet in my life. I've only been a vegan because of animal welfare before.
I myself actually believe that most of our ailments come from food. I know how food affects me. I know how I feel after I eat a huge sugar filled candy bar vs. salad with no dressing or oil. I can totally see that if the lining of our intestine gets eroded, it allows things to enter our bloodstream that were never meant to and that can kick off an autoimmune reaction. This is something that not only McDougall says, there are a plethora of other docs that say the very same thing.
What would it cost to follow a vegan diet for a month to see if anything gets better? Can't hurt. Literally - cannot hurt.
IN my case, my psoriasis was kicked off by a strep throat infection. I have it super mild - it persists only on my scalp, but it's not bad, if I leave it alone, it doesn't bother me, if I start digging, I'm digging myself into a hole... I have a spot or two somewhere on my body from time to time, but nothing that actually bothers me. I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
I'm a little let down because I started this thread to get more support, not to have people talk me down from it and call the author of the diet a quack ... without an iota of proof.
Isn't the fact that he claims cures for incurable diseases proof enough? That's pretty much the definition of a quack. I checked and he doesn't seem to claim any 'cure.' He does claim that most of our autoimmune/chronic diseases stem from what we eat ... which seems rather logical to me, plus he is not the only doctor saying that.
Also, I like the fact he is an actual medical doctor ...
How is that logical when autoimmune diseases are, for the most part, genetic?
From what I read, even that is debated - to what degree they actually are genetic. Also, some genetic issues need 'unlocking,' research suggests. My psoriasis was kicked off by strep throat. I don't think it's genetic at all because there's not a soul in my family that has psoriasis. I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not interested in discussing this further 0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I just listened to one of the "success" stories where the claim was made that the diet "cured" RA.
McDougall came on at the end and explained his theory on why autoimmune diseases are diet based.
LEAKY GUT. (For those who don't know what this is, it's the false theory that the gum membrane is permeable and that undigested proteins pass through it and the body recognizes these as invaders and forms antibodies against them. The whole thing is whack and I cannot square it with how there are genes present for certain autoimmune diseases like Chron's, RA, and celiac disease.).
Save me.
OP. McDougall is basing his claims on diet helping autoimmune conditions on a flawed premise. Leaky gut is psuedo-science and is laughed at in serious medical circles.
It's also kind of funny given that the other big proponents of leaky gut blame grains. Which are, of course, starches.
I'm personally going to say eat a balanced diet with sufficient protein, essential fats, and a good amount and variety of vegetables. Whole foods are great if you like to cook or are willing to do so (I am a fan). The remainder of calories are pretty optional and what works for people will vary, depending in part on whatever allergies or health issues you have, probably avoid getting them too much from industrial seed oils, refined grains, added sugar, processed meats, and go with what fits your ethics, taste, and what satiates you. Make sure to get some activity in your life and find a way to deal with stress and don't smoke or drink to excess.1 -
rakowskidp wrote: »
Precisely. If this woe is as miraculous as it sounds, there oughta be a few studies that prove it.Why, if it actually did help MS, would you expect it to help psoriasis. Brain lesions are very different from overproduction of skin or joint swelling.
And if it did help MS, after all these decades, there should be an actual scientific study about it. I know this diet has been around for 30 or 40 years. That's plenty of time for an actual study or two.
His diet does not sound miraculous to me at all.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).
How do you know that his treatment doesn't help those with MS? What are you basing your judgment call on? He does seem to be basing lots of his science on other scientists' research. Look, I'm not saying he's got 'the' cure, but maybe he does have something? Maybe there's not just *one* cure for a disease? I really don't get why folks are so repulsed by it ...
I have no idea if it helps those with MS, "help" isn't the claim that is being made. The claim that is being made is that 90% of those in the early stages of MS will be able to stop their disease through diet. Stop, not help. And the word "cure" is applied by McDougall himself to this process.
I haven't done the research myself, but there are two options to choose from here.
The first option is that there is, in fact, a cure for 90% of MS cases but that this is being ignored by doctors and researchers who have dedicated their lives to treating and researching MS and they're fine with watching people suffer and die from something that is completely preventable. The second option is that a man who makes his living selling diet information is using inflated claims for the result of his diet in order to spur sales of his books (and the pricey live-in programs sold on his website, $6,060 per person or $5,460 if you agree to share a room).
Which do you think is more likely?paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
Why, if it actually did help MS, would you expect it to help psoriasis. Brain lesions are very different from overproduction of skin or joint swelling.
And if it did help MS, after all these decades, there should be an actual scientific study about it. I know this diet has been around for 30 or 40 years. That's plenty of time for an actual study or two.
Because they're both autoimmune diseases. I was more interested in his claims concerning RA. It was others in the thread that zeroed in on the MS.
Both RA and psoriasis are autoimmune diseases.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I just listened to one of the "success" stories where the claim was made that the diet "cured" RA.
McDougall came on at the end and explained his theory on why autoimmune diseases are diet based.
LEAKY GUT. (For those who don't know what this is, it's the false theory that the gum membrane is permeable and that undigested proteins pass through it and the body recognizes these as invaders and forms antibodies against them. The whole thing is whack and I cannot square it with how there are genes present for certain autoimmune diseases like Chron's, RA, and celiac disease.).
Save me.
OP. McDougall is basing his claims on diet helping autoimmune conditions on a flawed premise. Leaky gut is psuedo-science and is laughed at in serious medical circles.
It's also kind of funny given that the other big proponents of leaky gut blame grains. Which are, of course, starches.
I'm personally going to say eat a balanced diet with sufficient protein, essential fats, and a good amount and variety of vegetables. Whole foods are great if you like to cook or are willing to do so (I am a fan). The remainder of calories are pretty optional and what works for people will vary, depending in part on whatever allergies or health issues you have, probably avoid getting them too much from industrial seed oils, refined grains, added sugar, processed meats, and go with what fits your ethics, taste, and what satiates you. Make sure to get some activity in your life and find a way to deal with stress and don't smoke or drink to excess.
Adding to this to eat these foods in an appropriate number of calories to maintain a healthy body weight.
That's all the nutrition advice you need.
1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
This page on his website is literally titled "Curing Multiple Sclerosis" and it claims that diet "stops the disease" for 90% of those in the early stages of the disease.
I get that this is something that you want to try. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try it. However, it does influence my opinion of McDougall's ethics and the reliability of the rest of the information on his site. One doesn't have to actually claim one has a "miracle cure" in order to make claims that aren't well supported by evidence and may serve to give false hope to people who are suffering (or, even worse, lead people to avoid legitimate medical treatments because they'd decided to follow McDougall's plan instead).
How do you know that his treatment doesn't help those with MS? What are you basing your judgment call on? He does seem to be basing lots of his science on other scientists' research. Look, I'm not saying he's got 'the' cure, but maybe he does have something? Maybe there's not just *one* cure for a disease? I really don't get why folks are so repulsed by it ...
I have no idea if it helps those with MS, "help" isn't the claim that is being made. The claim that is being made is that 90% of those in the early stages of MS will be able to stop their disease through diet. Stop, not help. And the word "cure" is applied by McDougall himself to this process.
I haven't done the research myself, but there are two options to choose from here.
The first option is that there is, in fact, a cure for 90% of MS cases but that this is being ignored by doctors and researchers who have dedicated their lives to treating and researching MS and they're fine with watching people suffer and die from something that is completely preventable. The second option is that a man who makes his living selling diet information is using inflated claims for the result of his diet in order to spur sales of his books (and the pricey live-in programs sold on his website, $6,060 per person or $5,460 if you agree to share a room).
Which do you think is more likely?paperpudding wrote: »I've recently started having an issue with my big toe joint, which can also be due to bad shoes and a shoulder pain that can also be due to imbalance of my spine due to my scoliosis/lordosis that I've had since I was born ... I don't really want to find out what is causing it, I just want to lower the level of inflammation (or completely eliminate it) in my body and going vegan sounds great to my animal loving ears (except the vegetable oil - what's up with the vegetable oil).
You don't want to find out what is causing your problems but you are just going to put your faith in a diet with no scientific basis????
And everyone who states there is no scientific basis to these claims is just being negative and non supportive???
That seems silly to me.
If you want to eat a vegan diet for whatever reason, do so.
But don't make silly unfounded claims that it cures MS etc and then complain when you get called out on them
I make no such claims. McDougall made a claim that many of his patients with MS improved or it at least slowed the progression down (I read the article on his website a fortnight ago, don't quote me on that), he did not actually claim he has a miracle cure for MS.
I myself don't have RA or MS. I have psoriasis, but only on my skin and it's so mild that I get one dime-sized spot a year somewhere on my body and it's only a little more persistent on my scalp, which actually doesn't bother me much.
I said that I do believe I have elevated levels of inflammation in my body. I think that (because I know my body) and even my chiropractor says so (I have scoliosis, out of whack spine and I go to him to a couple of adjustments a year when it gets too bad). If I went to a doctor with this, he or she'd just look at me like I'm a hypochondriac. If any of my pain gets worse, I'll sure go, but now it seems to early to have anything 'diagnosed,' as I don't think there is anything to diagnose.
I want to try this diet. That was the point of this thread. Plus asking if anyone else follows it.
Why, if it actually did help MS, would you expect it to help psoriasis. Brain lesions are very different from overproduction of skin or joint swelling.
And if it did help MS, after all these decades, there should be an actual scientific study about it. I know this diet has been around for 30 or 40 years. That's plenty of time for an actual study or two.
Because they're both autoimmune diseases. I was more interested in his claims concerning RA. It was others in the thread that zeroed in on the MS.
Both RA and psoriasis are autoimmune diseases.
Claims are not facts. He's never published any scientific studies.1
This discussion has been closed.
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