Was recommended not to do Stronglifts..
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Can you help me get some terminology straight? I think of the splits in TLS/BLS as working one muscle group at a time. But, should it not be referred to as such because of all the compound work? TIA!
BLS/TLS focuses on compound lifts with isolation lifts for accessory work.
Many bro-splits focus on isolation work and avoid as many compound lifts as is practical, or at least marginalize them in comparison to the amount of isolation work.
Mike Mathews (author of TLS/BLS) has nothing but good things to say about compound lift programs like Starting Strength and Wendler's 5/3/1.
In fact he frequently recommends them.
Thanks. I've been running programs from TLS for three years (with a recent blip up an upper/lower split) and I've just always had it in my head that I was focusing on one body part/day (that's how I framed it in my head even though I know that the compound moves target multiple areas), so I was having trouble understanding some of the comments. Got it now!0 -
I can maaaaaaaybe understand wanting to work individual muscle groups as a beginner, but only in the sense of getting a better understanding of your alignment/range of motion/body awareness. That being said, I'm sure he meant no harm in his suggestion, but certainly you know your body better than anyone else.
There is nothing wrong with StrongLifts, in fact, I started weight training with StrongLifts and saw amazing progress strength-wise. The only reason that I stopped is because my goals included gaining size as well as strength, so I transitioned to PHUL after doing SL for about 4 months.
Like many others have said, isolating one muscle group at a time won't really get you anywhere. Compound lifts that work several muscle groups together (like the ones recommended with SL) are the ones that will help you find more strength overall.
Best of luck whatever you choose!
one of the reasons people jump to isolation lifts first and for most is because when you google workouts- almost all of them include those.
And let's be real- doing curls and tricep extensions is intrinsically easier than learning how to properly squat or deadlift.
So- I absolutely get why people do it. It's what shoved out first and for most in training plans (I would, in an uneducated and completely unsubstantiated fashion postulate that stage competing is more visible than powerlifting- it's sexier and more appears more accessible (that's a different subject) than saw PL is).
but yeah- it's exhausting to me why beginner training programs don't ALL incorporate base technical lifts- they are arguably the firm foundation upon which ANY good athlete builds their success.
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After 20 years, I've done a lot of different programs and gotten A LOT of different advice. It always comes back to the basics
Squat (push)
Deadlift (pull)
Press(bench/pushup/dip)
Pull(Row/Pullup)
and
Situps/Crunches
You don't have to do everything on the list, but more importantly If it's not on the list, you don't have to do it.
There are variations.. and some of them are very good(in fact, I use a couple) But build the basics, build a base and then deviate and experiment and explore.
Any of the highly recommended , successful, science based programs are going to be variations on the theme. But the differences will be much more aesthetic than functional.6 -
If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious2 -
SL is a lot simpler than 5/3/1, and starting out (especially if you start with easy-for-you weights to make sure you are working on your form) you can progress in weight very quickly. 5/3/1 looked like a good program mainly for when you've started to stall a bit on progression.
Full body isn't an issue unless you are trying to do it every day. SL has rest days.
Compound lifts are definitely better for building actual usable strength versus isolation (and with less total time in the gym). Many compound lifts (especially in Stronglifts) will utilize your core for stability, so you will also be getting some ab work done for free.
You may want to lessen the squats if you have knee trouble (different position/keep lower weight/fewer sets or reps/only do on either A or B instead of both).
Pick up a set of 1.25 lb plates. You'll probably need them at some point and the gym probably doesn't have them.
Add accessory stuff if you have time, and don't feel like you've worked a certain muscle group enough that day/week.2 -
It can be really confusing and of course there can be exceptions to any rule.Thanks. I've been running programs from TLS for three years (with a recent blip up an upper/lower split) and I've just always had it in my head that I was focusing on one body part/day (that's how I framed it in my head even though I know that the compound moves target multiple areas), so I was having trouble understanding some of the comments. Got it now!
Look into the section of the book about "strength" or "power" weeks (I can't remember exactly what M.M. called them) to see where strength becomes a clear priory in TLS/BLS.
Notice how barbell and dumbbell exercises are often prioritized over cable machines in BLS/TLS.
The other distinction is the general rep range recommendation in BLS/TLS: 5-7 reps, right?
Not 8-12 or something more common with bodybuilding bro-part-splits.
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_dracarys_ wrote: »As I recall, you're the one who has the knee issue and is not wanting to squat with weight? That would be the ONLY reason I'd tell you not to do Stronglifts, since you'd squat every workout. His reasoning sounds very brosciency and I'd disregard his advice completely.
My ortho watches me squat with heavy weights. Sometimes he tells me take off 5 lbs if he doesn't like the sound my knee makes, sometimes he tells me to add 5 to see what that does. He says that strengthening the muscles around my knee will hold it together when my damaged ligament finally gives out.4 -
MelissaPhippsFeagins wrote: »_dracarys_ wrote: »As I recall, you're the one who has the knee issue and is not wanting to squat with weight? That would be the ONLY reason I'd tell you not to do Stronglifts, since you'd squat every workout. His reasoning sounds very brosciency and I'd disregard his advice completely.
My ortho watches me squat with heavy weights. Sometimes he tells me take off 5 lbs if he doesn't like the sound my knee makes, sometimes he tells me to add 5 to see what that does. He says that strengthening the muscles around my knee will hold it together when my damaged ligament finally gives out.
Yeah, I really only said that because I remember OP's other thread. I wasn't about to get into the whole "squatting can actually help your knee" thing in this thread. So when I said the bolded, I really meant "you" directly to the OP (because she already had said she wasn't going to squat), not "you" the general population.2 -
It can be really confusing and of course there can be exceptions to any rule.Thanks. I've been running programs from TLS for three years (with a recent blip up an upper/lower split) and I've just always had it in my head that I was focusing on one body part/day (that's how I framed it in my head even though I know that the compound moves target multiple areas), so I was having trouble understanding some of the comments. Got it now!
Look into the section of the book about "strength" or "power" weeks (I can't remember exactly what M.M. called them) to see where strength becomes a clear priory in TLS/BLS.
Notice how barbell and dumbbell exercises are often prioritized over cable machines in BLS/TLS.
The other distinction is the general rep range recommendation in BLS/TLS: 5-7 reps, right?
Not 8-12 or something more common with bodybuilding bro-part-splits.
Lower reps in BLS, but 8-10 is TLS. Then there is Beyond BLS, which brings in periodization.
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If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious
I just did a HIIT workout for the past 90 days and it just wasnt my favorite thing. I certainly lost weight and built muscle, but it got to a point I was just burnt out. I was doing it 6 days a week and was just over it. I have heard so much good about lifting weights, that I figured I would try it. I just want a workout that I enjoy at the end of the day. Running on a treadmill bores me to death after a while, and a whole schedule of cardio I usually end up evading workouts here and there.
Yes, defensive because this was my boyfriend that was being labeled an idiot, but also because I have had a hell week, and wasn't expecting all of these "Idiot" filled replies.
Im new to this. Will reiterate again. Total newbie. Yes I want to do a full body workout. No I did not intend to quit the Stronglifts I was planning on doing, but when the BF offered what sounded like a decent plan, I accepted. The intent was for him to teach me for a few, then me move on myself. Still will do.
The problem is I feel like most people replying assume I have an idea of workout types/lifts/gains/etc. I don't. So i dont know right from wrong.
When its explained as isolation lifts, I can see the issue. Like I told him, no I dont want big muscular arms muscles. I just want to recomp. Thats it.2 -
At middle age I personally feel that running SL5x5 or SS for more than 3 or 4 months (long enough to get the lifts down) is overrated for most people unless your end goal is just to keep moving more weight and you are not doing much else exercise-wise.SL is a lot simpler than 5/3/1, and starting out (especially if you start with easy-for-you weights to make sure you are working on your form) you can progress in weight very quickly. 5/3/1 looked like a good program mainly for when you've started to stall a bit on progression.
After the weights get heavy (say second reset of the same lift) move to 5/3/1, BLS/TLS or something similar, unless you are in some kind of hurry for raw poundages.
If that is the case then eat more and start looking toward things like Westside and the Texas Method.
If you are not willing or are unable to base much of your life around eating, lifting and sleeping then I feel it is counter-productive in the long-term to debate about 5x5 vs SS vs 5/3/1 vs any other good compound lift program, if at all.
I ran then 5/3/1 then Starting Strength, then SL5x5 because everyone kept saying 5/3/1 "was too slow" and "not for beginners."
I finally went back to 5/3/1 full-time and I do not regret it. There are a few reasons for this.
You can start just fine on any number of the 5/3/1 templates for beginners for a year and end up roughly the same place as you would a year after 5x5 or SS for example, once you factor in the stalls, resets, etc.
Yes, you might be a bit stronger on SL5x5 or SS because you add weight so much faster but there have also been several studies that indicate the speed at which strength is gained correlates to how fast it is lost.
One upside of of the 5/3/1 approach is that you do not need to recover like a 18 year old kid or eat like a pig the whole time to make it happen.
Another major upside -in my opinion- is that you have enough left in the tank to live your life.
As a coach I box (16oz gloves), train Filipino Martial Arts and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at least 3 (often 4) days a week.
Lifting with a goal of adding 5lbs to the bar every workout was causing performance issues in those contact sports at less than 5 months as a "beginner".
Little nagging twinges and pains were constant also. I kept having to reset weights because of missed rep targets.
If I wasn't doing anything else it may have been fine but I am not a couch potato outside of lifting.
I lift so I can be better in contact sports and life, not worse.
When I finally went back to 5/3/1 all of those issues went away. 6 months later I had new PRs in every lift.
I am now 46 and I can still fight harder and longer than many 20 or 30 year olds. I can also lift more than many of them.
Don't write off 5/3/1 just because it isn't as "fast" as some programs, even for beginners.
It can still have a place at the table. I am almost 50, I still train full-contact and it is was the perfect fit for me as a beginner.
4 of the fighters I coach have used it from Day One of quitting "bro-splits" and they are very pleased with the results.
5/3/1 isn't that complicated. People who say that probably haven't bothered to read the books.
Heck, apps and spreadsheets will do the calculations for you.
People should stop commenting that 5/3/1 "isn't for beginners" or is "too complicated" when they haven't read the books or even ran it for a full cycle.
There are pros and cons to even the best programs and they are not one-size-fits-all.
Find one you like that focuses on the big compound lifts at around 5RM and move on.1 -
If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious
I just did a HIIT workout for the past 90 days and it just wasnt my favorite thing. I certainly lost weight and built muscle, but it got to a point I was just burnt out. I was doing it 6 days a week and was just over it. I have heard so much good about lifting weights, that I figured I would try it. I just want a workout that I enjoy at the end of the day. Running on a treadmill bores me to death after a while, and a whole schedule of cardio I usually end up evading workouts here and there.
Yes, defensive because this was my boyfriend that was being labeled an idiot, but also because I have had a hell week, and wasn't expecting all of these "Idiot" filled replies.
Im new to this. Will reiterate again. Total newbie. Yes I want to do a full body workout. No I did not intend to quit the Stronglifts I was planning on doing, but when the BF offered what sounded like a decent plan, I accepted. The intent was for him to teach me for a few, then me move on myself. Still will do.
The problem is I feel like most people replying assume I have an idea of workout types/lifts/gains/etc. I don't. So i dont know right from wrong.
When its explained as isolation lifts, I can see the issue. Like I told him, no I dont want big muscular arms muscles. I just want to recomp. Thats it.
Thank you for your response.
I asked because I started out by doing HIIT 3-4 times a week for about 2 years, then transitioned into a lifting program by starting SL. I was still doing my HIIT on my "rest days" but then I dropped that and strictly did the SL program. I was terrified at first (ask quiksylver and Melissa) I had never in my life lifted more than a 15 lb. dumbbell and thought I would undoubtedly injure myself. But I did my research and started the program August 10th, 2015. Cut to almost 2 years later and my body has completely transformed and I would in no way consider myself bulky. I've definitely cut my BF% and raised muscle mass, and my body is curvier now than ever before. As a matter of fact, I would have never used the word curvy to describe myself before lifting.
I'm not sure why I shared all that, but if I had any advice, it would be this: start slow. Give the program a chance to work before switching to something else. If you want to listen to your boyfriend, then listen. If you don't, don't. In the end, you're the only one that can make that decision.
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I only read the first 2 pages, but I think it's just going to repeat from there.
Actually, I'm probably repeating anyway.
But, I would agree with the point of working with him to learn the lifts. Work with low weights (the bar, or less). If he is an experienced lifter he *probably* knows the correct form and can watch your form and help you correct it. This is important to avoid injury.
Once you have form down on the lifts, then you can start doing SL or another program you like.
FWIW, I think that "muscle group" means different things to different people. It could mean you work upper body (chest, arms, back) one day and lower body the next. Or it could mean that you work only pectorals one day, with bench press, chest fly, etc. Then you work glutes another day. Arms on their own day, with a lot of different types of bicep curls and tricep things. Abs another day. The first idea makes sense to me as a possible lifting routine (5/3/1 is sort of this upper body/lower body split, though there is a different "big lift" each day). The second, not a lot.0 -
If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious
I just did a HIIT workout for the past 90 days and it just wasnt my favorite thing. I certainly lost weight and built muscle, but it got to a point I was just burnt out. I was doing it 6 days a week and was just over it. I have heard so much good about lifting weights, that I figured I would try it. I just want a workout that I enjoy at the end of the day. Running on a treadmill bores me to death after a while, and a whole schedule of cardio I usually end up evading workouts here and there.
Yes, defensive because this was my boyfriend that was being labeled an idiot, but also because I have had a hell week, and wasn't expecting all of these "Idiot" filled replies.
Im new to this. Will reiterate again. Total newbie. Yes I want to do a full body workout. No I did not intend to quit the Stronglifts I was planning on doing, but when the BF offered what sounded like a decent plan, I accepted. The intent was for him to teach me for a few, then me move on myself. Still will do.
The problem is I feel like most people replying assume I have an idea of workout types/lifts/gains/etc. I don't. So i dont know right from wrong.
When its explained as isolation lifts, I can see the issue. Like I told him, no I dont want big muscular arms muscles. I just want to recomp. Thats it.
Big muscled arms takes a boat load of work- don't worry about that- I'm still trying to get huge after years of lifting- still not there.
Secondly- or firstly since it was really your first point- HIIT workouts 6 days a week IS to much- and you absolutely will get burnt out- they are good "fill in" workouts- like 2-3 times a week- but throwing yourself around with body weight high intensity training is hard on your body.
I did it for 2 or 3 years and I wound up with a shoulder injury from repetitive strain.
Definitely good to supplement but not really great for the main method of working out- so I wouldn't give up on them entirely you know? just do them once or twice a week or maybe once or twice a month.3 -
If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious
I just did a HIIT workout for the past 90 days and it just wasnt my favorite thing. I certainly lost weight and built muscle, but it got to a point I was just burnt out. I was doing it 6 days a week and was just over it. I have heard so much good about lifting weights, that I figured I would try it. I just want a workout that I enjoy at the end of the day. Running on a treadmill bores me to death after a while, and a whole schedule of cardio I usually end up evading workouts here and there.
Yes, defensive because this was my boyfriend that was being labeled an idiot, but also because I have had a hell week, and wasn't expecting all of these "Idiot" filled replies.
Im new to this. Will reiterate again. Total newbie. Yes I want to do a full body workout. No I did not intend to quit the Stronglifts I was planning on doing, but when the BF offered what sounded like a decent plan, I accepted. The intent was for him to teach me for a few, then me move on myself. Still will do.
The problem is I feel like most people replying assume I have an idea of workout types/lifts/gains/etc. I don't. So i dont know right from wrong.
When its explained as isolation lifts, I can see the issue. Like I told him, no I dont want big muscular arms muscles. I just want to recomp. Thats it.
Ultimately, you need to find a program that fits your goals. SL may or may not be the one that achieves that. Personally, it's a bit monotonous for my liking, but it provides a solid foundation and allows a person to maximize their results (most muscle recruitment) and minimize the amount of time required.
So I would ask, would you rather spend 30-60 minutes or 2 hours lifting?
Also, if you have knee issues, you really should work with a physical therapist. I did when I tore my MCL, and they pushed for people to rebuild and strengthen the muscles supporting the knee. This in turn, will reduce the chance of hurting yourself.2 -
I only read the first 2 pages, but I think it's just going to repeat from there.
Work with low weights (the bar, or less).
Yep- on the "or less". After a few months, I'm still working up to the actual (full-sized) empty bar on overhead press. (at some point before getting there on 5x5, I also lowered the weight and switched from 5x5 to 4x8 to try to cram my session into a shorter time period; and a few stalls before ordering 1.25 lb plates).
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Well i started with 55lbs because the bar was just too light, and 65lbs was just a little too much to do 5 x 5 times. That was for the bench press though.I only read the first 2 pages, but I think it's just going to repeat from there.
Work with low weights (the bar, or less).
Yep- on the "or less". After a few months, I'm still working up to the actual (full-sized) empty bar on overhead press. (at some point before getting there on 5x5, I also lowered the weight and switched from 5x5 to 4x8 to try to cram my session into a shorter time period; and a few stalls before ordering 1.25 lb plates).
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If you don't want to build muscle (forgive me if that's misunderstood), why are you doing lifting and not something more along the lines of a HIIT or circuit training program that uses very light weight and resistance more than anything?
Signed,
Curious
I just did a HIIT workout for the past 90 days and it just wasnt my favorite thing. I certainly lost weight and built muscle, but it got to a point I was just burnt out. I was doing it 6 days a week and was just over it. I have heard so much good about lifting weights, that I figured I would try it. I just want a workout that I enjoy at the end of the day. Running on a treadmill bores me to death after a while, and a whole schedule of cardio I usually end up evading workouts here and there.
Yes, defensive because this was my boyfriend that was being labeled an idiot, but also because I have had a hell week, and wasn't expecting all of these "Idiot" filled replies.
Im new to this. Will reiterate again. Total newbie. Yes I want to do a full body workout. No I did not intend to quit the Stronglifts I was planning on doing, but when the BF offered what sounded like a decent plan, I accepted. The intent was for him to teach me for a few, then me move on myself. Still will do.
The problem is I feel like most people replying assume I have an idea of workout types/lifts/gains/etc. I don't. So i dont know right from wrong.
When its explained as isolation lifts, I can see the issue. Like I told him, no I dont want big muscular arms muscles. I just want to recomp. Thats it.
I think a lot of the initial reactions to your OP is due in large part to the OP sounding like this was an actual program you were going to be doing for some stretch...there wasn't ever mention of anything about it being temporary to learn or ease in or anything like that. It just sounded like no SL and do this instead which would raise the eyebrows of basically anyone who's spent any bit of time in the weight room.
Ultimately, you need to find a program that works for you and what you want to do. There's nothing wrong with SL though it's not really my cup of tea. I do a full body program that includes a body weight day, a moderate rep/weight day, and a heavy 5x5 day with an all power (Olympic lifts) day thrown into the 4 week cycle...my trainer put it together and it basically emphasizes general fitness and athleticism which is what I'm after.2 -
Probably enough has been said on this.
But, you know what the best program for starting out is?
It's the one that is the most fun and that you will stick with.
If working out with your boyfriend, and following his advice, makes it more fun. Do that.
You can get rigorous and serious once you have a habit.2
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