Please Help Me Understand :(
Replies
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I'm going to play the part of *that guy* and say severe caloric restriction, while not ideal or sustainable, is not going to destroy him if done correctly. Metabolic adaptation plays a heavy part in what happens with the amount of food we eat or don't eat. Will he lose fat mass? Yes. Will he lose lean mass? Yes. Does water and poop count as lean mass? Yes. Does anyone need excessive lean mass (by pure definition of "more than necessary") if our bodies are physically smaller? No.
It's not necessarily a bad thing. #Context
Dieting is, in itself, a very loose concept of starvation. You're reducing the influx of an outside source of energy to maintain size and weight. If you want to argue that, you're welcome to but it is what it is. The body is constantly going to protect itself to prevent from dying, and if his caloric intake is accurate, his body has protected itself for 3 weeks so far. Again, is it ideal or sustainable long-term? No.
Also, it seems that everyone here forgets that if you've lost weight, your own body fat has contributed to your daily caloric requirements during your energy deficit. It's literally stored energy and 330lbs on a 69 inch frame is maxed out on storage and has been forced to cram more into it.
But to argue everyone's point, it sounds like you're either on some kind of modified keto style of diet, so have a free meal every few days (2-3x) out of the week to spare the severe metabolic adaptation that comes as part of dieting too hard; i.e. drop in leptin, testosterone, thyroid and increases in cortisol and ghrelin.
And focus on protein as your main macro. If you're only getting ~8 oz of chicken per day as your source of protein, that's roughly 45g-50g of protein, which would calculate out to about 200kcal total out of your 1000kcal average. You would be losing a lot protein from your body at that point, which can and will come from skeletal and smooth muscle if necessary. If your dietary fat is taking up the bulk of your calories, switch that to protein as the bulk of your calories. 150-200g of protein would be 600-800kcal, which sounds a lot better. As long as you don't suffer from kidney disease, the protein amount is fine. The rest of your calories come from either higher carbs or higher fat or moderate amounts of both, but if your mostly sedentary and/or diabetic, then you don't really need as much carbs.
Finally, go see a doctor if you have any issues that might be hindering your progress. Scale weight isn't completely indicative of fat loss, but you should at least be seeing something unless you're drinking so much water that you're replacing what you should be losing in gravity manipulation.
While in some circumstances it might be okay for someone with a lot of weight to lose to carry a larger deficit, no one should be eating 800 cals per day unless they are being monitored by a doctor. In addition to energy, your body needs nutrition too, and there's no way a big guy is getting enough in 800 calories of chicken, a banana, and veggies. People doing doctor prescribed vlcd are given supplements and are monitored. In addition, struggling to eat a plain, limited, low cal diet use up their will power way before they lose enough weight and often end up rebounding hard. Even if OP manages to lose 3 or 4 lbs per week, he has a very long road ahead.
Having said thst, if he really hasn't lost any weight in 3 weeks. I'd guess he's eating more than he thinks.5 -
OP, how much weight have you lost in that time period?
Are you drinking any calories in the day?
Are you having snacks that you arent logging?1 -
I don't understand what you mean by don't see a difference...do you mean you can't see it in the mirror or you literally haven't lost any weight?5
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I am a 57 year old male. I started at 317 pounds.
In the first three weeks I lost 18.6 pounds with NO Exercise nor did I even start any exercise for the first 49 days or seven weeks.
Average deficit was 892 calories.
I didn't change to a more nutritious diet till much later on as my understanding of what I needed to eat to sustain my diet and not be hungry became apparent like more fruits and vegetables, etc., etc.
For most of that 49 day period I simply logged accurately which cut my intake and the weight FELL OFF!
In that 49 days I lost 27.8 pounds.
I have lost 63 pounds to date and I am half way through week 25.
It doesn't go in my pie hole till its weighed and logged period!
CI/CO is insanely easy!
Don't make it hard!
You eat less than you burn and you will lose weight!
Since everything about you is locked down may I suggest this idea to you.
Set your activity level to Sedentary and maintain your current weight.
Then try to come in 500 calories under that figure and BE RELENTLESS when it comes to weighing and logging your food.
I think you will find the results to be to your satisfaction.16 -
arrghmatey1 wrote: »I am a 57 year old male. I started at 317 pounds.
In the first three weeks I lost 18.6 pounds with NO Exercise nor did I even start any exercise for the first 49 days or seven weeks.
Average deficit was 892 calories.
I didn't change to a more nutritious diet till much later on as my understanding of what I needed to eat to sustain my diet and not be hungry became apparent like more fruits and vegetables, etc., etc.
For most of that 49 day period I simply logged accurately which cut my intake and the weight FELL OFF!
In that 49 days I lost 27.8 pounds.
I have lost 63 pounds to date and I am half way through week 25.
It doesn't go in my pie hole till its weighed and logged period!
CI/CO is insanely easy!
Don't make it hard!
You eat less than you burn and you will lose weight!
Since everything about you is locked down may I suggest this idea to you.
Set your activity level to Sedentary and maintain your current weight.
Then try to come in 500 calories under that figure and BE RELENTLESS when it comes to weighing and logging your food.
I think you will find the results to be to your satisfaction.
Really good man-to-man advice you just got!6 -
I'm going to play the part of *that guy* and say severe caloric restriction, while not ideal or sustainable, is not going to destroy him if done correctly. Metabolic adaptation plays a heavy part in what happens with the amount of food we eat or don't eat. Will he lose fat mass? Yes. Will he lose lean mass? Yes. Does water and poop count as lean mass? Yes. Does anyone need excessive lean mass (by pure definition of "more than necessary") if our bodies are physically smaller? No.
It's not necessarily a bad thing. #Context
Dieting is, in itself, a very loose concept of starvation. You're reducing the influx of an outside source of energy to maintain size and weight. If you want to argue that, you're welcome to but it is what it is. The body is constantly going to protect itself to prevent from dying, and if his caloric intake is accurate, his body has protected itself for 3 weeks so far. Again, is it ideal or sustainable long-term? No.
Also, it seems that everyone here forgets that if you've lost weight, your own body fat has contributed to your daily caloric requirements during your energy deficit. It's literally stored energy and 330lbs on a 69 inch frame is maxed out on storage and has been forced to cram more into it.
But to argue everyone's point, it sounds like you're either on some kind of modified keto style of diet, so have a free meal every few days (2-3x) out of the week to spare the severe metabolic adaptation that comes as part of dieting too hard; i.e. drop in leptin, testosterone, thyroid and increases in cortisol and ghrelin.
And focus on protein as your main macro. If you're only getting ~8 oz of chicken per day as your source of protein, that's roughly 45g-50g of protein, which would calculate out to about 200kcal total out of your 1000kcal average. You would be losing a lot protein from your body at that point, which can and will come from skeletal and smooth muscle if necessary. If your dietary fat is taking up the bulk of your calories, switch that to protein as the bulk of your calories. 150-200g of protein would be 600-800kcal, which sounds a lot better. As long as you don't suffer from kidney disease, the protein amount is fine. The rest of your calories come from either higher carbs or higher fat or moderate amounts of both, but if your mostly sedentary and/or diabetic, then you don't really need as much carbs.
Finally, go see a doctor if you have any issues that might be hindering your progress. Scale weight isn't completely indicative of fat loss, but you should at least be seeing something unless you're drinking so much water that you're replacing what you should be losing in gravity manipulation.
While in some circumstances it might be okay for someone with a lot of weight to lose to carry a larger deficit, no one should be eating 800 cals per day unless they are being monitored by a doctor. In addition to energy, your body needs nutrition too, and there's no way a big guy is getting enough in 800 calories of chicken, a banana, and veggies. People doing doctor prescribed vlcd are given supplements and are monitored. In addition, struggling to eat a plain, limited, low cal diet use up their will power way before they lose enough weight and often end up rebounding hard. Even if OP manages to lose 3 or 4 lbs per week, he has a very long road ahead.
Having said thst, if he really hasn't lost any weight in 3 weeks. I'd guess he's eating more than he thinks.
I agree. Vlcd has been documented as a prescribed and monitored method of rapid weight loss, yet it doesn't stop others from doing it without public admission. I realize that's also entrained ED and I'm in no way advocating it, but the premise of my post was that short term results in rapid fat loss have also been shown to maintain long term weight management. Without proper background knowledge, yes there have been consequences, and without accurate food recall or recording, it negates what should be a severe deficit.
My initial point was that 3 weeks of a self-induced vlcd hasn't caused any permanent metabolic damage. Underfeeding and overfeeding studies have demonstrated that it will adjust to maintain an acceptable level of homeostasis. If (operative word) the op was able to maintain a large deficit (short term) with a focus on whole foods that provide adequate protein and nutrient density, then I see it more as a benefit, since long term goals would either include more frequent meals and/or the inclusion of more energy dense nutrition at a more sustainable energy deficit.
On the other hand, if it's not working, then full stop and try a more sensible approach.0 -
Are you going by a change in the mirror, because that will take a long time to see. If you're saying you have not lost any scale weight, you're doing something terribly wrong or waking up to eat without noticing.
Like others have said, buy a food scale and weigh everything.1 -
vivelajackie wrote: »Dude, when I was over 400 I went for a no frills approach. Don't starve yourself to lose weight, which if you are being honest and only aiming at 800-1000 you are. And no, I'm not bringing up infamous starvation mode mythos here. Eat. Log. Stop torturing yourself to lose weight. Mfp would never recommend a cal goal that low.
Bolded is something to live by, imo
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yankeesfan299 wrote: »I'm not saying it's been easy staying at the calorie amount. First week was near death, but now it's not bad really, maybe it's just me. I keep busy and don't give much time to it anymore. As per the suggestions, I'll definitely read the forum stickies. And for measuring calories, I rely on packaging mainly as I assumed it would be correct. And to be blunt, but all my life I've tried dieting and exercising and different methods and I'm so fed up nothing works, so I've resorted to this. I've always trended positive in weight gain, I just need a change for once.
Losing weight is hard work. "sigh" use mfp as a learning tool, there is so much great information here (also some BS). The process is never perfect and you will encounter may bumps in the road. If your like me you have not gained all of you weigh in a short period of time, so don't force your body to lose it in a short period. You need to be able to sustain this life change and not be miserable.1 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »I'm not saying it's been easy staying at the calorie amount. First week was near death, but now it's not bad really, maybe it's just me. I keep busy and don't give much time to it anymore. As per the suggestions, I'll definitely read the forum stickies. And for measuring calories, I rely on packaging mainly as I assumed it would be correct. And to be blunt, but all my life I've tried dieting and exercising and different methods and I'm so fed up nothing works, so I've resorted to this. I've always trended positive in weight gain, I just need a change for once.
YOU AREN'T READING WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING. YOU ARE. NOT. EATING. ENOUGH. Start over. Reset your program. If you don't know how get someone to help you compute a healthy reduced calorie plan. Eat according to that plan.5 -
Before anything I would like to repeat what others are saying: what you are doing is not healthy nor sustainable, read the links and figure out a diet that you will be willing to continue doing even after the novelty of dieting wears off.
With that out of the way, what do you mean "not seeing a difference"? You mean no difference in weight or in the way you look/clothes fit...etc? Because you would only see a difference after losing quite a bit. It took me losing about 50 pounds to notice a difference in the way I looked.1 -
You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.0
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Did you read the stickies?2
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yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
It takes a good 15-20 pounds for me to lose a size in clothing. I wouldn't get frustrated with not being able to SEE a change in three weeks. You need to find a cheap scale and/or start measuring so that you will see your results. A food scale would be a great investment as well.2 -
You will definitely want to faithfully log your food after you have weighed it on a good quality digital food scale. I was mistakenly thinking an apple was 1 serving, then weighed my apple and found it was more than 2 servings even allowing for the core. Same can be said for bananas and other fruit. Work the plan as MFP has designed for you. Eat the calories they have allotted for you, eat back some if not all of your exercise calories. Drink at least 8 cups of water a day to stay hydrated. The life change works and it does not need to be drastic. You can still eat what you like just not as much as before and take the time to weigh and log.
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yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Actually, it's the opposite. The bigger you are, the less you'll be able to see even large-ish amounts of weight loss. When you're at a very low weight, even 3-5 pounds will make a huge difference. At a very high weight, 3-5 pounds is just a drop in the bucket. You need a scale.10 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Early on these boards, I saw someone give the analogy of unwinding a roll of toilet paper. When the roll is at its biggest, even though a lot more comes off with each revolution, it's not so easy to spot as it is when a quarter or half the roll is gone. The closer you get to goal, the more obvious the changes will be, but it does take time.
Trufax: I went bra shopping when I'd gone down to about 230 from 254. The only change in my size? Not sure if you know this as a man, but the bands are adjustable. I was able to go from the loosest to the median setting. But nothing had changed. I was starting to see some benefits, like not being as out of breath going up stairs. Clothes that had stretched as I expanded seemed to fit a little more comfortably. But 20+ pounds lost made no difference for that article of clothing.
25 pounds later, I went bra shopping again and this time, I was down between two and three sizes.
If you're not getting a scale, try a measuring tape. Results are a bit slower for that; you won't see much from week to week. But once every four to six weeks? You should see changes.6 -
If you had had weight loss surgery, you would be eating a similar amount of calories, so I don't believe that the amount of calories will cause you to hurt yourself. BUT, you would also be required to have a fair amount of protein, which you may not be getting with the small amount of chicken you're eating. Additionally, you'd be told to take a multi vitamin, calcium, B12, and vitamin D. If you plan on continuing this way (and I get it... I'm an all or nothing kind of person. I either over eat, or restrict), I would definitely throw in 2 protein shakes a day. You have PLENTY of room for the calories and the protein will help a number of physical things from happening.
You mentioned not seeing results - Are you actually weighing yourself or just looking for your clothes to fit better? It can take a while before your clothes feel different, depending on where you lose it first.1 -
I started my weight loss journey at 217 lbs, im down almost 25 lbs and can barely tell a difference when looking in the mirror. The only difference is that my pants are getting to big and I had to get some smaller sizes, but thats been three months. If I wasnt using a scale or measuring and just using the mirror and clothing as a guide, after a month I would be frustrated too. See if you can get a cheap sale even check craigslist for a used one.0
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yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Nobody's trying to pick you apart. However, you're running full-speed toward a cliff, and everyone else can see the edge, and they're trying to warn you that there's real danger up ahead. People are trying to keep you from starving yourself and then triggering bingeing, which is what tends to happen with crash diets. They're seeing 6 months down the road, and trying to tell you that the method you've picked is more likely to end with you gaining more weight than it is to end with sustainable weight loss.13 -
gabriellejayde wrote: »If you had had weight loss surgery, you would be eating a similar amount of calories, so I don't believe that the amount of calories will cause you to hurt yourself. BUT, you would also be required to have a fair amount of protein, which you may not be getting with the small amount of chicken you're eating. Additionally, you'd be told to take a multi vitamin, calcium, B12, and vitamin D. If you plan on continuing this way (and I get it... I'm an all or nothing kind of person. I either over eat, or restrict), I would definitely throw in 2 protein shakes a day. You have PLENTY of room for the calories and the protein will help a number of physical things from happening.
You mentioned not seeing results - Are you actually weighing yourself or just looking for your clothes to fit better? It can take a while before your clothes feel different, depending on where you lose it first.
If he had weight loss surgery he would be under a doctor's care. Eating so few calories without medical supervision is not safe or healthy.5 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Early on these boards, I saw someone give the analogy of unwinding a roll of toilet paper. When the roll is at its biggest, even though a lot more comes off with each revolution, it's not so easy to spot as it is when a quarter or half the roll is gone. The closer you get to goal, the more obvious the changes will be, but it does take time.
Trufax: I went bra shopping when I'd gone down to about 230 from 254. The only change in my size? Not sure if you know this as a man, but the bands are adjustable. I was able to go from the loosest to the median setting. But nothing had changed. I was starting to see some benefits, like not being as out of breath going up stairs. Clothes that had stretched as I expanded seemed to fit a little more comfortably. But 20+ pounds lost made no difference for that article of clothing.
25 pounds later, I went bra shopping again and this time, I was down between two and three sizes.
If you're not getting a scale, try a measuring tape. Results are a bit slower for that; you won't see much from week to week. But once every four to six weeks? You should see changes.
I was just about to use this analogy, but the one I read was of paper towels, not toilet paper, lol. It's genius stuff! Certainly made the first couple of months a lot better, when you're not really "seeing" any difference.0 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Nobody's trying to pick you apart. However, you're running full-speed toward a cliff, and everyone else can see the edge, and they're trying to warn you that there's real danger up ahead. People are trying to keep you from starving yourself and then triggering bingeing, which is what tends to happen with crash diets. They're seeing 6 months down the road, and trying to tell you that the method you've picked is more likely to end with you gaining more weight than it is to end with sustainable weight loss.
^^What AliceDark said! No one is going to pick you apart And like everyone else said, faithfully track your calories (and everything else) it really does help. And if you really truly feel like you are doing everything in your power to get healthy and you still aren't seeing (or feeling) a difference then you need to consult with your Dr. There are lots of things that can hinder your progress. Stick with it, stay on track and be honest with yourself about what you are eating (and drinking), log it, get a food scale, measuring cups, measuring spoons and be diligent about it, yes it takes time and yes it's a pain in the *kitten* some times (to me it is anyways) but if you aren't 200% in it you aren't going to get anywhere. Good luck!! 0 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Without a body weight scale, you don't know... 3 weeks is too little time to get a change that you can 'see' especially since we, as humans, are not great at being objective when it comes to how we look. Are there any public type scales you can use? Fitness center, doctor's office, etc. Something you can check, and then go back in a month and check again. Or get a scale for your home, even a $20-30 cheap scale will be better than nothing.
General error-proof method of weight loss:
1. Realistic expectations; for being over 300 pounds you can realistically expect to lose weight on average of about 2 pounds per week. As you get closer to goal it will likely slow down. The key is 'over time'. Meaning you may lose 1 pound some weeks, stay the same other weeks, and see a bigger drop on the scale occasionally. The human body is not a perfect machine.
2. Accurately and honestly log your calories. At 300+ pounds, you can afford to estimate food portions because your body uses a decent amount of energy for normal, day to day stuff. But try to account for foods, cooking oils, condiments, etc. And if at some point your weight is NOT moving (as in 4-6 weeks of no loss) then improve accuracy, estimate portions less.
3. Patience. This goes back to how weight loss happens over time. 12, 18 months. But between now and then you'll be improving your body's health and fitness, and accomplishing all sorts of great stuff that can mean a better, more active life.
Last thought: the goal of this process is NOT to see how little you can eat. Its to figure out how much you can eat and still lose weight at a reasonable pace. Your body uses approximately 2800 calories just to handle your daily bodily functions. For heart/brain/lung/kidney/etc. functions. That means you could sit on the couch ALL DAY, eat 1800 calories, and still average over 2 pounds per week lost. Because in addition to the 2800, your body uses energy to move you thru your day. Around your house, to/from your job, thru your hobbies, errands, etc. Plus more if you exercise.2 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
Just the opposite...you're bigger so it's going to take longer to see visible changes. The smaller you are, the more visibly pronounced smaller changes in weight are. Expecting to see any substantial visible change in a few weeks is simply not realistic at your size. To boot, we look at ourselves everyday in the mirror...visible changes are slow and often not really noticed since we're always looking at ourselves.1 -
yankeesfan299 wrote: »You guys are probably gonna pick me to pieces but I'm going off of physical change and how clothes fit. I figured since I am bigger, the changes should be more pronounced and obvious. I don't currently have a scale, I just moved in to my newborn apartment.
When I was pushing 400 lbs and started to lose weight, I was eating 1500 calories under a doctor's supervision. Also, it took about a 25 lb loss before I saw any changes in how my clothes fit, and about a 50 lb loss before anyone else really noticed that I was losing. If a 400 lb person loses 15 lbs and a 200 lb person loses 15 lbs, it's going to be way more noticeable on a 200 lb person.4 -
Im 6'3 and started at 275 lbs about a month and a half ago. I've been under averaging 650-850 calories with 1 high calorie day a week. My goal is 1800 at the moment. It's definitely not a long term plan, I think it did help me rest my eating habits.
Im down 16 pounds. I have a goal to lose another 10 in 3 weeks before I get home from deployment for my brothers wedding. I plan on ramping up to the 1200-1400 min deficit as recommended by MFP as I approach that weight.
I left out, I recently noticed being that low on calories not working the best in regards to bowel movements. I have tried upping my intake some the last week to fix that. Im on the fence how I feel about it. Something to consider
You need to be super meticulous with everything you put in your mouth. If its water log it, if its cholula hot sauce log it, if it has 0 calories log it. You need to get in the habit of being accountable for everything so you don't forget to account for anything in your daily intake.
As many others have said the key to weight loss is calories in less than calories out. You need to weigh everything don't rely on packages. If 1 teaspoon (4g) is x calories. Weigh the food then figure out how many calories are in your weight with simple math.
Theres a bunch of garbage database entries unfortunately. Google things, if in doubt take the average entries of the multiple entries and use that or the higher one, don't "shop" for the lowest entry as your robbing yourself in the long run.
My diary is open if you want to get some ideas of what I eat in a day. Im deployed overseas so my options for fresh healthy food with variety are limited but I make it work. Don't beat yourself up if you go over your goal one day, it happens. Log it, look at how it unfolded, and learn how your decisions impacted your day. Then move on, its life and theres always tomorrow.
Good luck, you'll get there!2 -
Take progress pics! When I get discouraged, I love looking back at 270lb me. It reminds you how far you have come.
And definitely get a scale.0 -
Ohh. Okay! OP, I bet you're totally losing weight. It took me maybe a month before there where any signs I could recognize of physical changes, even though the scale told me I was losing progressively.
So. First, don't fret, you're almost certainly losing. And second, take care of yourself and do this right! It's worth it!0 -
@yankeesfan299 You are starving yourself and your body will not let go of the fat it's carrying. I weigh 158 and am a 5'5" female and I eat 1500 a day.
At your weight, your BMR is probably around 2500 (didn't know your age).
I wouldn't eat less than 2000 calories a day if I were you. Try to keep it healthy, but your body won't release fat as long as it feels it has to store it to keep you alive.
Also be sure you're drinking lots of water. Your body will hold on to weight when it's dehydrated as well.0
This discussion has been closed.
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