Lose the fat then gain muscle? Right or wrong?
Abrahamsarah1
Posts: 9 Member
Hey guys, so im on ketosis and im losing the weight but my goal is to have muscle, so what i want to do is i want to first lose the fat and when im don with that i would like to start working to gain the muscle, is this a recommended way to do it or not?
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Replies
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When you first start strength training, and when you have plenty of fat to lose - you are in the unique position of being able to lose fat while gaining muscle.
It won't be fast or a huge amount - but it won't be available later with little to lose.
Start now - then when the fat is gone there will actually be something to see besides a smaller version of current self - called skinny fat.
Fat flapping where you don't want it, and bunching up, but at a healthy weight.
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Actually mixing weights with circuit and cardio help burn fat even after you stop working out.8
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Wrong.
Muscle takes far longer to build (rebuild) than people imagine.
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@sijomial
Why do you call it "irrelevant bonus"? My understanding is that if you are heavier you have more muscle to carry that weight around. You do say "Muscle takes far longer to build (rebuild) than people imagine". Wouldn't it then be best to try to lose as little of it as we are slimming down? I am geniunely curious.0 -
I think it's best to lose fat first, but that doesn't mean you can't work on gaining muscle as you lose the fat.
So start lifting while you cut down, as a beginner you should be able to build muscle and lose fat at the same time.0 -
Wrong.
Muscle takes far longer to build (rebuild) than people imagine.
Would agree with this. Years ago I stupidly lose a lot of weight and spent years trying to put muscle on to no avail. It was only when I came on here and started with a PT that I started to put the muscle on but that took a while and a lot of eating.0 -
@sijomial
Why do you call it "irrelevant bonus"? My understanding is that if you are heavier you have more muscle to carry that weight around. You do say "Muscle takes far longer to build (rebuild) than people imagine". Wouldn't it then be best to try to lose as little of it as we are slimming down? I am geniunely curious.
@joinn68
Because the goal of a workout isn't to earn a minuscule number of calories from EPOC.
Do circuit training if that progresses you towards your fitness, strength endurance, or sporting goals.
Do strength training if that helps you towards your strength/musculature goals.
Do cardio to progress towards your fitness goals.
Compromising your workout to earn maybe a couple of dozen extra calories make no sense. Also bear in mind all exercise has a varying degree of EPOC anyway.
Yes we agree - we should lose as little muscle as possible or even build a small amount whilst losing fat. That's why my first post in response to the title "Lose the fat then gain muscle? Right or wrong?" was Wrong.
The worst case from starting now instead of waiting is that you end up building a base of strength and technique whilst preserving the maximum amount of precious muscle.
Best case is that someone might actually cut down to a body they like!4 -
Last time I lost weight I did cardio only, this time I've been doing strength as well and have hit the same dress size measurements 10 pounds earlier than last time, I really recommend it and feel much healthier and in better shape, I think it's a really good idea to try to retain as much muscle as possible and future AbrahamSarah1 will thank you for giving them an easier starting point if you do want to build muscle. x5
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Wrong - lose fat and preserve as much muscle as you can; then when you get body fat low enough, bulk..4
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Wrong - lose fat and preserve as much muscle as you can; then when you get body fat low enough, bulk..
+1 Some responses seem to imply the question was lose fat vs strength train by talking about losing muscle on the way down. You should be strength training all the time. The only question then is are in a deficit or a surplus. My understanding is that when at a surplus, all other things being equal, more of the gain will be muscle when you body fat is lower. This is why you should lose first.1 -
Hey guys! Thanks so much for the feedback! So im not seriously overweight, i am extremely athletic and i already have a somewhat decent amount of muscle because im a competitive muay thai fighter, i just never really did too much weight lifting, all of the muscle i have today is from the muay thai training and bodyweight exercises that we do. The past few years i have gained 6 extra kilo because i have hypothyroidism and only now with the help of keto im able to shed off the extra weight.
Ive just never really been toned and and never had the body similar to the other fighters, that is my goal!
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sijomial and heybales pretty much said all that I would have and more. It is so much harder to build muscle, especially for a woman without the benefit of lots of testosterone. Keep what you have while losing fat!1
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@sijomial
Why do you call it "irrelevant bonus"? My understanding is that if you are heavier you have more muscle to carry that weight around. You do say "Muscle takes far longer to build (rebuild) than people imagine". Wouldn't it then be best to try to lose as little of it as we are slimming down? I am geniunely curious.
I'm sure you've noticed sijomial was referring to the EPOC comment specifically - but for others and the poster of the comment that got the comment:
https://www.onnit.com/academy/boost-epoc-burn-calories-youre-done-working/
"While boosting post-workout calorie burn is certainly beneficial, it’s not the be-all, end-all of workout goals. Even if you maximize your post-workout burn, you’re still only looking at an additional calorie burn of about 6-15% of your during-workout burn. In other words, if your workout burned about 400 calories, EPOC would only account for an additional calorie burn of about 24 to 60 calories. Finally, because human bodies are so freakin’ efficient, the more fit you become, the less significant EPOC becomes."
vs resistance training extra calorie burn from repair:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862249/
"There was a significant (P<0.05) increase in 24-hr EE in the RT (527 ± 220kJ/d) and C (270 ± 168kJ/d) groups, however, the difference between groups was not significant (P=0.30). Twenty-four hour fat oxidation (g/day) was not altered after RT, however; reductions in RQ assessed during both rest (P<0.05) and sleep (P<0.05) suggested increased fat oxidation in RT compared with C during these periods. SMR (8.4±8.6%) and RMR (7.4±8.7%) increased significantly in RT (P<0.001) but not in C, resulting in significant (P<0.001) between group differences for SMR with a trend for significant (P=0.07) between group differences for RMR."4 -
Dieting... ie.. calorie reduction... losing fat...losing weight... just like you can't spot reduce, your body is indiscriminate about where the weight comes from.. so... you can lose fat... but you will also lose muscle mass if you are not feeding yourself an appropriate level of calories. Forget weight and focus on body composition... body fat vs. Lean muscle mass... consider Dwayne Johnson... no one will ever consider him fat... but he consumes in excess of 5000 calories/ day to maintain his muscle mass... of course genetics and hard work play a part... but if you strength train...on a regular and consistent basis while properly fuelling your body... your body fat % will decline and your muscle mass will increase... most folks are spot on... you will lose weight by reducing intake and maintaining your current activity level... but that weight loss will be a combination of fat and muscle... strength train and eat healthy and you may not lose weight but you will be leaner, stronger, have more energy and be happier with your efforts sooner1
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Abrahamsarah1 wrote: »Hey guys! Thanks so much for the feedback! So im not seriously overweight, i am extremely athletic and i already have a somewhat decent amount of muscle because im a competitive muay thai fighter, i just never really did too much weight lifting, all of the muscle i have today is from the muay thai training and bodyweight exercises that we do. The past few years i have gained 6 extra kilo because i have hypothyroidism and only now with the help of keto im able to shed off the extra weight.
Ive just never really been toned and and never had the body similar to the other fighters, that is my goal!
in that case maybe shoot for a small deficit - 250 calories a day - which would give you half pound per week loss and keep doing your muay thai training?1 -
@joinn68
The worst case from starting now instead of waiting is that you end up building a base of strength and technique whilst preserving the maximum amount of precious muscle.
Best case is that someone might actually cut down to a body they like!
Thanks for clarifying. Yes that's what I was asking: Preserve muscle. Great!0 -
Personally I think people overstate muscle loss during a cut. It goes hand in hand with people underestimating how much bodyfat they need to lose to achieve a six pack.
If any real muscle is actually lost during a cut, then muscle memory will see it gained very quickly as soon as you start eating at maintenance.2 -
Personally I think people overstate muscle loss during a cut. It goes hand in hand with people underestimating how much bodyfat they need to lose to achieve a six pack.
If any real muscle is actually lost during a cut, then muscle memory will see it gained very quickly as soon as you start eating at maintenance.
Then consider me an overstated. I did not lift at all during 9 months of losing 60 lbs and lost way too much LBM. I wish I had lifted and lost slower.1 -
Do yourself a huge favor, in the end you will be glad you did.
Lift heavy now, while cutting calories.
At least 3x per week.
If you are a complete newb to lifting then start with full body lifting program.
Something like StrongLifts 5x51 -
Personally I think people overstate muscle loss during a cut. It goes hand in hand with people underestimating how much bodyfat they need to lose to achieve a six pack.
If any real muscle is actually lost during a cut, then muscle memory will see it gained very quickly as soon as you start eating at maintenance.
I kinda think if the person does at least some exercise that stimulates the muscle, then muscle loss will be minimal.
If they do nothing though....then loss of muscle will be higher. It is a very costly component of the body when in deficit. So if it isn't being used, not a big reason to keep it.2 -
Personally I think people overstate muscle loss during a cut. It goes hand in hand with people underestimating how much bodyfat they need to lose to achieve a six pack.
If any real muscle is actually lost during a cut, then muscle memory will see it gained very quickly as soon as you start eating at maintenance.
Are you talking muscle loss or strength loss?
Muscle isn't quick to go on no matter what you had before. Not sure how muscle memory would help there.
Just read the blogs of many professional body-builders and power lifters that didn't play on the safe side when cutting and hated the results.
And it didn't go on quick even for them. If any should have this muscle memory you reference to allow quick comeback - they should.
Studies have generally found (Lyle McDonald had a good writeup of studies on this IIRC) if no specific resistance training is done - about 20-30% LBM is lost in average diet.
Don't recall how reasonable or extreme "average diet" means, and obviously LBM doesn't mean all muscle, as you should require less water for instance with less fat to support (blood volume).
Considering most seem to diet extreme because they start from the bottom up from some minimum - I can see it being realistic number.
But considering studies have shown a reasonable deficit, enough protein, and some simple resistance training - can keep LBM - I don't think it's overstated to say many risk it very easily with what they do.
Not much protein, heavy on the cardio, and not very reasonable deficit.1 -
Come on guys, I didn't think I'd actually have to point out on a bodybuilding forum, that you have to continue lifting to preserve muscle mass while on a cut.0
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richardgavel wrote: »Personally I think people overstate muscle loss during a cut. It goes hand in hand with people underestimating how much bodyfat they need to lose to achieve a six pack.
If any real muscle is actually lost during a cut, then muscle memory will see it gained very quickly as soon as you start eating at maintenance.
Then consider me an overstated. I did not lift at all during 9 months of losing 60 lbs and lost way too much LBM. I wish I had lifted and lost slower.
Muscle loss is overstated assuming you are providing sufficient stimulus to the muscles and consuming enough protein.
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Come on guys, I didn't think I'd actually have to point out on a bodybuilding forum, that you have to continue lifting to preserve muscle mass while on a cut.
I'd agree if this was actually a body building forum. But it's a weight loss/ calorie counting/ general fitness forum. Many here don't or never have lifted. Just take a stroll through the fitness section and you will see what I mean. richardgavel is an example of that. He and many others have come to see the value of resistance training but there are still many who don't here and some who don't incorporate any exercise. The fact that the OP is even asking this question is also an example of what I am saying.2 -
I wouldn't bother with cardio.
Get yourself on StrongLifts 5x5, maintain your weight and bulk on training days. I only aim to put some weight on so I'm starting at 2400 calories and work from there.2 -
Come on guys, I didn't think I'd actually have to point out on a bodybuilding forum, that you have to continue lifting to preserve muscle mass while on a cut.
True, but in response to the OP's wording. It needed to be conveyed to him, that his plan is not the most optimal in the long run.0 -
True, but in response to the OP's wording. It needed to be conveyed to him, that his plan is not the most optimal in the long run.
True, which I did in a reply earlier.So start lifting while you cut down, as a beginner you should be able to build muscle and lose fat at the same time.
I think we're all on the same page then it comes to keeping muscle by lifting heavy while cutting.
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So we were just confirming what you said.
All good0 -
There are some interesting studies that have come out recently. Even in trained individuals you can loose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Just have a pretty hefty calorie deficit but keep your protein high and resistance train.1
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