Why hasn't MFP improved?
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The info is there for the people who want it. Most people are too lazy, impatient, too intent on doing whatever nonsense they found on the internet or netflix, etc to bother with actually learning anything. Those who actually want to learn and make the effort to lose the weight can easily get the information they need here. Those who want a quick fix will ignore it.18
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[/quote]I still don't understand why MFP hasn't taken the common misuse and misunderstanding of their tool and tried to improve it?
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1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
2. They do enough to prevent people from trying to set unrealistic goals (by having generally accepted recommended maximums and minimums, and by sending the "You didn't eat enough, so this day won't count message" when people try to flout those recommendations)... they are NOT users' paid dieticians, and therefore it's not really their job to provide really individualized diet plans, so one-size-fits-most is the best you're going to get.
3. By providing a forum, and tons of supplemental reading material they actually are addressing misunderstanding by giving truly motivated people a means to become more educated. The tool itself can't explain everything and actually teach people how to get healthy because it was never meant to do that.15 -
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
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When you set up your goals it suggests you set it for one pound per week loss. That's a good safe boundary.
On the setup it gives you links and info about how the numbers are generated, if you look for that info. BMR, Mifflin St Joer, Activity levels, etc.
There are a million setup threads at the top of the forums.
If someone is 18, presumably they know how to read. I fail to see how this tool isn't self explanatory, or how you would be able to force people to read the stickies. Even if you forced them to read the stickies, they would either understand or not understand.
Good luck changing the world!10 -
Meh, the website and app aren't great but they work. The rest of it is down to the user really.8
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shaunshaikh wrote: »This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall.
That is not true. I have used MFP since 2012 and not one thing has been moved from the free version to behind a paywall. Everything behind a paywall is either an additional function to an existing feature or is a new feature. There are a couple things that no longer function properly, but they also do not function properly behind the paywall.8 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
Why ask us general users? There are various ways to send feedback to the developers that don't involve asking random users on the forums what the app developers are thinking. If it bothers you so much, I don't understand why you don't avail yourself of those other methods. You won't get answers from those of us who haunt these forums because we just don't have them. There are a lot of things most of us would like to see changed or fixed (hello, 0 mono and polyunsaturated fat goals). Instead we get a woo button and round avis. You either come to terms with it, complain where someone with some power might see it (none of the app developers or MFP staff visit the forums regularly as far as I can tell), or you find somewhere else to spend your hours. *shrug*18 -
The stickies provide everything a user needs to have a better understanding not just of how MFP and weight loss works, but also good reasons for setting realistic goals.
The issue is that most people never read the stickies, as far as I can tell from their posts. Even when they're provided direct links and told that all their questions can be answered there, a lot of them seem to come back to their thread and listen to the handful of posters who told them what they want to hear, while ignoring the veterans. You can't really fix that.
Oftentimes, people want an answer to their question now, and they want it providedto them. They don't want to have to put in the "work" of reading stickies and having a better understanding of what they're doing. So, even if the info is right in front of them in a way they can't ignore, I doubt it would make much difference. I mean, look at the most basic set-up choice: choose your activity level based on your job (or however it's worded) and then examples of jobs are provided. Yet, day in and day out, there are posts that clearly show the poster, whether OP or responder, doesn't understand that exercise is not included.
However, at least the forum activity allows others to learn. Sadly, they do have to learn to sort through the noise and pure garbage, but it doesn't really take too long if you're even semi-active on the boards to start to be able to do so. I've been here since 2012. I've learned a lot just from reading the forums. So, while those who post may not be taking the good advice of others, I bet there are lots of lurkers who do. MFP works well enough once you get the hang of it, especially for something that's free.
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shaunshaikh wrote: »I joined MFP in December 2010 or January 2011 to help me lose weight before my wedding. I lost it all, then gained it back and then some when I did my MBA while working, so I've come back to make my way back down.
Back in 2011, I was a big forum junkie like I am now, and what is striking to me is that the threads, questions, and mistakes are the same as 2011.- Naturally, there are daily threads debating the latest diet fad
- There are the threads about people who wonder why they aren't losing weight, and honestly the issues have not changed since 2011
- Finally, there still appear to be a large amount of people who don't understand appropriate goal setting or how the tool is supposed to be used.
And my question is this -- why hasn't MFP done literally anything to improve the education and outcomes in those areas in the tool itself? Sure, people may get the answers if they lurk in the forums enough, but even then you're surrounded by so much noise and uninformed people it may be hard for the truly educated to shine through.
Here are some low-hanging items I'm SHOCKED have not been addressed in 6-7 years of using this website/app:- Why doesn't MFP help people with realistic goal setting? There is not even a minimal amount of information about how many lbs/wk to use when setting your goal, so many novices default to 1,200 calories or 1,500 calories per day, then consequently burn out.
- Why doesn't MFP make it clear that you're supposed to eat back your exercise calories?
- Even worse, why does MFP give a false sense of accomplishment if someone severely undereats by telling them they'll lose a ton of weight in 5 weeks, rather than noting that their calorie consumption is below recommended levels and could lead to long term issues if sustained?
- Why does MFP still have an awful exercise calories burned database? The numbers are so inflated, either people are eating too much and are not seeing results or they ignore the number entirely and starve themselves. I'll see people claim 600 calories for going grocery shopping, it's absurd.
- Why does MFP handle the macro and micro nutrient goals and results so sloppily? For example, if I go over my goal in healthy fats, MFP will show me a red number as if I've violated something. Why doesn't it educate people on which things matter and which don't and when to pay attention to them?
- Why doesn't MFP trend weight recordings, like many other third party apps?
My suspicion is that this is about liability. If they are just a dumb counting tool, they can free themselves of any culpability of offering health or medical advice to anybody. I'm disappointed though, I think that this can tool can be more than that. Thanks to the great people of the forums I've learned so much, and it just makes me constantly sad to see how misled people can get. There is SO MUCH BAD INFORMATION out there in the world about health, I'm frustrated that MFP doesn't do more to be a beacon of (science-based) light.
So I became a member after 2011...2013 to be exact...
So here are my answers...
when I came here I set my goal at 1 lb a week because I am a reasonable person.
and Logged my exercise and got immediately I was suppose to eat the calories from exercise back...
it gave me a warning if I ate below 1200 so I got that it wasn't a good thing...
the exercise calories I ate back were bang on...and yes I ate 100% of them so they aren't inflated for everyone. (keep in mind I logged with a food scale from almost the start)
I think that if people want this information they find it on their own....didn't take me long to get it figured out...and I've been here maintaining now for a long time...
MFP shouldn't be liable...even doctors (regular GPs) shouldn't be giving out some of the nutritional advice etc they do...and they should be liable.
MFP is fine...you expect far too much from them considering it's free and it's a cop out that the user should be spoon fed the info.32 -
For one, you used to be able to export your data for free.shaunshaikh wrote: »This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall.
That is not true. I have used MFP since 2012 and not one thing has been moved from the free version to behind a paywall. Everything behind a paywall is either an additional function to an existing feature or is a new feature. There are a couple things that no longer function properly, but they also do not function properly behind the paywall.
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diannethegeek wrote: »shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
Why ask us general users? There are various ways to send feedback to the developers that don't involve asking random users on the forums what the app developers are thinking. If it bothers you so much, I don't understand why you don't avail yourself of those other methods. You won't get answers from those of us who haunt these forums because we just don't have them. There are a lot of things most of us would like to see changed or fixed (hello, 0 mono and polyunsaturated fat goals). Instead we get a woo button and round avis. You either come to terms with it, complain where someone with some power might see it (none of the app developers or MFP staff visit the forums regularly as far as I can tell), or you find somewhere else to spend your hours. *shrug*
You have 12,000 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can understand why I'd post something I'd like to discuss on a discussion forum.12 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
Why ask us general users? There are various ways to send feedback to the developers that don't involve asking random users on the forums what the app developers are thinking. If it bothers you so much, I don't understand why you don't avail yourself of those other methods. You won't get answers from those of us who haunt these forums because we just don't have them. There are a lot of things most of us would like to see changed or fixed (hello, 0 mono and polyunsaturated fat goals). Instead we get a woo button and round avis. You either come to terms with it, complain where someone with some power might see it (none of the app developers or MFP staff visit the forums regularly as far as I can tell), or you find somewhere else to spend your hours. *shrug*
You have 12,000 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can understand why I'd post something I'd like to discuss on a discussion forum.
I can. However your responses and the way that you've shut down or pushed back against every response you've received indicates that you want answers rather than general discussion. We don't have answers for you. You'll continue to be disappointed if you look for them here. My 12,000 posts have taught me that.25 -
I've done no more than push back on people who have pushed back on my own ideas and suggestions.18
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shaunshaikh wrote: »I joined MFP in December 2010 or January 2011 to help me lose weight before my wedding. I lost it all, then gained it back and then some when I did my MBA while working, so I've come back to make my way back down.
Back in 2011, I was a big forum junkie like I am now, and what is striking to me is that the threads, questions, and mistakes are the same as 2011.- Naturally, there are daily threads debating the latest diet fad
- There are the threads about people who wonder why they aren't losing weight, and honestly the issues have not changed since 2011
- Finally, there still appear to be a large amount of people who don't understand appropriate goal setting or how the tool is supposed to be used.
And my question is this -- why hasn't MFP done literally anything to improve the education and outcomes in those areas in the tool itself? Sure, people may get the answers if they lurk in the forums enough, but even then you're surrounded by so much noise and uninformed people it may be hard for the truly educated to shine through.
Here are some low-hanging items I'm SHOCKED have not been addressed in 6-7 years of using this website/app:- Why doesn't MFP help people with realistic goal setting? There is not even a minimal amount of information about how many lbs/wk to use when setting your goal, so many novices default to 1,200 calories or 1,500 calories per day, then consequently burn out.
- Why doesn't MFP make it clear that you're supposed to eat back your exercise calories?
- Even worse, why does MFP give a false sense of accomplishment if someone severely undereats by telling them they'll lose a ton of weight in 5 weeks, rather than noting that their calorie consumption is below recommended levels and could lead to long term issues if sustained?
- Why does MFP still have an awful exercise calories burned database? The numbers are so inflated, either people are eating too much and are not seeing results or they ignore the number entirely and starve themselves. I'll see people claim 600 calories for going grocery shopping, it's absurd.
- Why does MFP handle the macro and micro nutrient goals and results so sloppily? For example, if I go over my goal in healthy fats, MFP will show me a red number as if I've violated something. Why doesn't it educate people on which things matter and which don't and when to pay attention to them?
- Why doesn't MFP trend weight recordings, like many other third party apps?
My suspicion is that this is about liability. If they are just a dumb counting tool, they can free themselves of any culpability of offering health or medical advice to anybody. I'm disappointed though, I think that this can tool can be more than that. Thanks to the great people of the forums I've learned so much, and it just makes me constantly sad to see how misled people can get. There is SO MUCH BAD INFORMATION out there in the world about health, I'm frustrated that MFP doesn't do more to be a beacon of (science-based) light.
I burned out my first time as well and had to consequently take breaks from MFP. From a business standpoint, they'd have a more consistent audience if they did more to encourage progress in those struggling.
Other suggestions:
-Put a warning when someone tries to either lose more than 1% of their bodyweight per week or if their deficit is more than 20% of their TDEE.
-Allow users to input exercise based on average heartrate, or something.
-Stop with the red and green numbers; if I go over my fiber (but am within my carbs) that's a GOOD thing! And if I go only 50 calories over my goal but I'm still within my goal for the week, that's also a good thing! There shouldn't be a glaring red number.
-Tailored tips which you can hide (like how to bust through a plateau if you're in one, or articles for first-time users when you're first starting out, or tips on how to get more protein if you struggle with that... etc). As far as MFP's interests, these tips can include blog article links as well as links to the forums, which will drive more traffic to the forums so it benefits them too.
These things WILL encourage more users to use it/stick with it. I don't buy that being deliberately confusing is helpful for them at all.7 -
MFP/UA has blog posts that addresses various amount of topics that are meant to educate users. People just need to take the time to read them.8
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I think that your suggestions are great ideas. Although if they were to be implemented, you would have to pay extra. I have always tracked my Whole Grains separately, and I suggested that they add that on the nutrition values, not sure if they do on the advanced version.
I was trying to remember the other day where I first found MFP, I was thinking it was About.com but I am not positive.
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MFP could put all the helpful information out there right in your face, and the people who ask the same questions over and over still aren't going to read it, and are still going to ask "how to lose belly fat", and "why aren't I losing weight after 2 days". These people get all of the useful information in the threads, and they blatantly disregard it and end up calling people mean, because we try to shout through a keyboard "LISTEN TO ME, A DETOX ISN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".
So true. From many posts it's obvious the stickies aren't being read. I don't think there is anything that can be done short of putting up an obstructive flashing banner with dancing bananas that reads "A DETOX ISN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".
As for OP:
The same things keep coming up because new people join the site every day, with the same access to misinformation and insecurities. MFP can't do much about that. We have stickies but they aren't being read. One thing I can think of that could use a lot of improvement information-wise is the official MFP blog, but then again, these aren't there for information, they're there for clicks so there is that.
#2 I completely agree with. A short paragraph explaining how it works should at least help some (others would just click through then jump on the forum to ask).
#3 is already being done
#4 is not MFP's fault. These numbers are almost standardized. Most forms of activity can't be estimated correctly anyway, so unfortunately this one is not MFP's or the user's fault, just so archaic calculations. Things like running and walking are actually fine on MFP because they can be tested.
It would be nice to have trend weight calculations.
I think a mistake people make is expect MFP to be a source of information. It's not and has never been. It's just a tool for counting calories with a few other bells and whistles. Correct information and educating the masses is not the main objective of MFP as a free (or more recently freemium) business model. Unless your service is selling information, information takes a back seat.
MFP changed with new features in the premium version, but other than that I agree than it hasn't changed much.10 -
I've never tried so I don't know but am I right MFP lets you close if 1200 gross? So if you are netting super low it will let you close? I think that's a flaw for sure.1
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magster4isu wrote: »MFP/UA has blog posts that addresses various amount of topics that are meant to educate users. People just need to take the time to read them.
The blog is dreadful, I'd never direct anyone to the MFP blogs.11 -
@shaunshaikh Consider something: The fasting for several days while consuming only black coffee or water "diet" is being used by the very wealthiest and most influential people in Silicon Valley and Manhattan. It is featured in Wired and Bloomberg. These people at the very tip of the wealth pyramid have a megaphone to shout to the whole world that they do lose weight, achieve mental clarity and leave it to the listener to assume "get rich quicker".
MFP, UA, and CICO haven't a chance against that.
One thing UA has done to improve MFP while keeping their Cash In lower than their Cash Out has been to accept nominations for 'most helpful posts'. The recently created graphic by @tinkerbellang83 has managed to rise above the noise and will serve to inform millions of women for as long as we have an internet.8
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