Why hasn't MFP improved?
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diannethegeek wrote: »shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
Why ask us general users? There are various ways to send feedback to the developers that don't involve asking random users on the forums what the app developers are thinking. If it bothers you so much, I don't understand why you don't avail yourself of those other methods. You won't get answers from those of us who haunt these forums because we just don't have them. There are a lot of things most of us would like to see changed or fixed (hello, 0 mono and polyunsaturated fat goals). Instead we get a woo button and round avis. You either come to terms with it, complain where someone with some power might see it (none of the app developers or MFP staff visit the forums regularly as far as I can tell), or you find somewhere else to spend your hours. *shrug*
You have 12,000 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can understand why I'd post something I'd like to discuss on a discussion forum.12 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
Why ask us general users? There are various ways to send feedback to the developers that don't involve asking random users on the forums what the app developers are thinking. If it bothers you so much, I don't understand why you don't avail yourself of those other methods. You won't get answers from those of us who haunt these forums because we just don't have them. There are a lot of things most of us would like to see changed or fixed (hello, 0 mono and polyunsaturated fat goals). Instead we get a woo button and round avis. You either come to terms with it, complain where someone with some power might see it (none of the app developers or MFP staff visit the forums regularly as far as I can tell), or you find somewhere else to spend your hours. *shrug*
You have 12,000 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can understand why I'd post something I'd like to discuss on a discussion forum.
I can. However your responses and the way that you've shut down or pushed back against every response you've received indicates that you want answers rather than general discussion. We don't have answers for you. You'll continue to be disappointed if you look for them here. My 12,000 posts have taught me that.25 -
I've done no more than push back on people who have pushed back on my own ideas and suggestions.18
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shaunshaikh wrote: »I joined MFP in December 2010 or January 2011 to help me lose weight before my wedding. I lost it all, then gained it back and then some when I did my MBA while working, so I've come back to make my way back down.
Back in 2011, I was a big forum junkie like I am now, and what is striking to me is that the threads, questions, and mistakes are the same as 2011.- Naturally, there are daily threads debating the latest diet fad
- There are the threads about people who wonder why they aren't losing weight, and honestly the issues have not changed since 2011
- Finally, there still appear to be a large amount of people who don't understand appropriate goal setting or how the tool is supposed to be used.
And my question is this -- why hasn't MFP done literally anything to improve the education and outcomes in those areas in the tool itself? Sure, people may get the answers if they lurk in the forums enough, but even then you're surrounded by so much noise and uninformed people it may be hard for the truly educated to shine through.
Here are some low-hanging items I'm SHOCKED have not been addressed in 6-7 years of using this website/app:- Why doesn't MFP help people with realistic goal setting? There is not even a minimal amount of information about how many lbs/wk to use when setting your goal, so many novices default to 1,200 calories or 1,500 calories per day, then consequently burn out.
- Why doesn't MFP make it clear that you're supposed to eat back your exercise calories?
- Even worse, why does MFP give a false sense of accomplishment if someone severely undereats by telling them they'll lose a ton of weight in 5 weeks, rather than noting that their calorie consumption is below recommended levels and could lead to long term issues if sustained?
- Why does MFP still have an awful exercise calories burned database? The numbers are so inflated, either people are eating too much and are not seeing results or they ignore the number entirely and starve themselves. I'll see people claim 600 calories for going grocery shopping, it's absurd.
- Why does MFP handle the macro and micro nutrient goals and results so sloppily? For example, if I go over my goal in healthy fats, MFP will show me a red number as if I've violated something. Why doesn't it educate people on which things matter and which don't and when to pay attention to them?
- Why doesn't MFP trend weight recordings, like many other third party apps?
My suspicion is that this is about liability. If they are just a dumb counting tool, they can free themselves of any culpability of offering health or medical advice to anybody. I'm disappointed though, I think that this can tool can be more than that. Thanks to the great people of the forums I've learned so much, and it just makes me constantly sad to see how misled people can get. There is SO MUCH BAD INFORMATION out there in the world about health, I'm frustrated that MFP doesn't do more to be a beacon of (science-based) light.
I burned out my first time as well and had to consequently take breaks from MFP. From a business standpoint, they'd have a more consistent audience if they did more to encourage progress in those struggling.
Other suggestions:
-Put a warning when someone tries to either lose more than 1% of their bodyweight per week or if their deficit is more than 20% of their TDEE.
-Allow users to input exercise based on average heartrate, or something.
-Stop with the red and green numbers; if I go over my fiber (but am within my carbs) that's a GOOD thing! And if I go only 50 calories over my goal but I'm still within my goal for the week, that's also a good thing! There shouldn't be a glaring red number.
-Tailored tips which you can hide (like how to bust through a plateau if you're in one, or articles for first-time users when you're first starting out, or tips on how to get more protein if you struggle with that... etc). As far as MFP's interests, these tips can include blog article links as well as links to the forums, which will drive more traffic to the forums so it benefits them too.
These things WILL encourage more users to use it/stick with it. I don't buy that being deliberately confusing is helpful for them at all.7 -
MFP/UA has blog posts that addresses various amount of topics that are meant to educate users. People just need to take the time to read them.8
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I think that your suggestions are great ideas. Although if they were to be implemented, you would have to pay extra. I have always tracked my Whole Grains separately, and I suggested that they add that on the nutrition values, not sure if they do on the advanced version.
I was trying to remember the other day where I first found MFP, I was thinking it was About.com but I am not positive.
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MFP could put all the helpful information out there right in your face, and the people who ask the same questions over and over still aren't going to read it, and are still going to ask "how to lose belly fat", and "why aren't I losing weight after 2 days". These people get all of the useful information in the threads, and they blatantly disregard it and end up calling people mean, because we try to shout through a keyboard "LISTEN TO ME, A DETOX ISN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".
So true. From many posts it's obvious the stickies aren't being read. I don't think there is anything that can be done short of putting up an obstructive flashing banner with dancing bananas that reads "A DETOX ISN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".
As for OP:
The same things keep coming up because new people join the site every day, with the same access to misinformation and insecurities. MFP can't do much about that. We have stickies but they aren't being read. One thing I can think of that could use a lot of improvement information-wise is the official MFP blog, but then again, these aren't there for information, they're there for clicks so there is that.
#2 I completely agree with. A short paragraph explaining how it works should at least help some (others would just click through then jump on the forum to ask).
#3 is already being done
#4 is not MFP's fault. These numbers are almost standardized. Most forms of activity can't be estimated correctly anyway, so unfortunately this one is not MFP's or the user's fault, just so archaic calculations. Things like running and walking are actually fine on MFP because they can be tested.
It would be nice to have trend weight calculations.
I think a mistake people make is expect MFP to be a source of information. It's not and has never been. It's just a tool for counting calories with a few other bells and whistles. Correct information and educating the masses is not the main objective of MFP as a free (or more recently freemium) business model. Unless your service is selling information, information takes a back seat.
MFP changed with new features in the premium version, but other than that I agree than it hasn't changed much.10 -
I've never tried so I don't know but am I right MFP lets you close if 1200 gross? So if you are netting super low it will let you close? I think that's a flaw for sure.1
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magster4isu wrote: »MFP/UA has blog posts that addresses various amount of topics that are meant to educate users. People just need to take the time to read them.
The blog is dreadful, I'd never direct anyone to the MFP blogs.11 -
@shaunshaikh Consider something: The fasting for several days while consuming only black coffee or water "diet" is being used by the very wealthiest and most influential people in Silicon Valley and Manhattan. It is featured in Wired and Bloomberg. These people at the very tip of the wealth pyramid have a megaphone to shout to the whole world that they do lose weight, achieve mental clarity and leave it to the listener to assume "get rich quicker".
MFP, UA, and CICO haven't a chance against that.
One thing UA has done to improve MFP while keeping their Cash In lower than their Cash Out has been to accept nominations for 'most helpful posts'. The recently created graphic by @tinkerbellang83 has managed to rise above the noise and will serve to inform millions of women for as long as we have an internet.8 -
Good point Jerome1
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VintageFeline wrote: »I've never tried so I don't know but am I right MFP lets you close if 1200 gross? So if you are netting super low it will let you close? I think that's a flaw for sure.
I've just tested this (I never bother closing out my diary anymore) on my Sunday diary. I had a net of 977 kcal (consumed near 2000 kcal, burned around 1000) and it let me close out with a 16lb loss if I kept up for the 5 weeks.3 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »Back in 2011, I was a big forum junkie like I am now, and what is striking to me is that the threads, questions, and mistakes are the same as 2011.
- Naturally, there are daily threads debating the latest diet fad
Humans have been looking for quick diet fixes for decades. Check out the weight loss tips from the 1920s. This isn't a new thing and kind of impossible to avoid. Humans naturally want to find easy ways to look attractive and healthy without putting in the work. - There are the threads about people who wonder why they aren't losing weight, and honestly the issues have not changed since 2011
Same as above... human nature. Plus there is so much misinformation floating around on the internet and by word-of-mouth that it's hard for a lot of people to understand. - Finally, there still appear to be a large amount of people who don't understand appropriate goal setting or how the tool is supposed to be used.
I agree that these issues can be blamed on MFP, but really, look at how many users use this website. Most people get along fine and have zero issues understanding the website. The vocal minority post occasionally about it on the forum. It's simply impossible to create a website simple enough that EVERY person - of thousands of members - will understand it. Some people are new to using computers and everything will be confusing.
- Why doesn't MFP help people with realistic goal setting? There is not even a minimal amount of information about how many lbs/wk to use when setting your goal, so many novices default to 1,200 calories or 1,500 calories per day, then consequently burn out.
I agree that this could be improved. Perhaps MFP could create a quiz when you first join to allow you to mark off your goals in a more user-friendly way. "How many pounds do you wish to lose each week?" "How would you describe your activity level?" etc. - Why doesn't MFP make it clear that you're supposed to eat back your exercise calories?
I think this is fairly clear for most users - red means over-goal, green means you can eat more. But of course, it's never going to be clear enough for everyone. And even if they added some sort of pop-up or explaination, there will still be people who ignore it. - Even worse, why does MFP give a false sense of accomplishment if someone severely undereats by telling them they'll lose a ton of weight in 5 weeks, rather than noting that their calorie consumption is below recommended levels and could lead to long term issues if sustained?
Lazy/simple programming, I assume. This would be a quick fix and valuable, I think. - Why does MFP still have an awful exercise calories burned database? The numbers are so inflated, either people are eating too much and are not seeing results or they ignore the number entirely and starve themselves. I'll see people claim 600 calories for going grocery shopping, it's absurd.
I can't remember if exercises are user-submitted like the food database, or MFP-provided. But yes, either case, their algorithms could use some work. - Why does MFP handle the macro and micro nutrient goals and results so sloppily? For example, if I go over my goal in healthy fats, MFP will show me a red number as if I've violated something. Why doesn't it educate people on which things matter and which don't and when to pay attention to them?
Because people have different goals. Some people may not care about going over on their "healthy fats", while others may be on a medically supervised diet where going over macros can be an issue. - Why doesn't MFP trend weight recordings, like many other third party apps?
This would definitely be a nice feature, but would take some programming work. Either they don't think it's an important feature or they don't have the team to handle it.
2 - Naturally, there are daily threads debating the latest diet fad
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shaunshaikh wrote: »
That's such a cop out. Just because some people lose weight using this tool doesn't mean there aren't SOME features they couldn't improve. This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall. To be honest, I don't really care what they put behind a pay wall. I am just frustrated that they haven't improved the tool at all.1. Because they don't need to. If it didn't work for anyone then it wouldn't still exist all these years later, and at the end of the day it does what UA needs it to do.
When you say cop out, you're implying that they have a responsibility or duty to do more than they currently do. It's a free tool, and was not created using public funds so there is no responsibility to do anything more than the creator wants it to do. Simply put, they do not owe users a better free tool... they actually do not owe users a free tool at all.20 -
I feel pretty comfortable in arguing that if you put a tool out there that tens of millions of people are using to improve their health, you should occasionally look for ways to improve it.13
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I cant stand all of those personal recipes in the food base, should only be on your own page. Also my food items have so much stuff i dont even eat any more, taking up so much space, cant even delete them2
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I'll just address this one: 3.Even worse, why does MFP give a false sense of accomplishment if someone severely undereats by telling them they'll lose a ton of weight in 5 weeks, rather than noting that their calorie consumption is below recommended levels and could lead to long term issues if sustained?
The app DOES give you a warning when you close out your diary at too low of an intake. It won't show you the calculation at under 1,200 calories. It'll just say that you should be consuming more for health reasons, etc
Actually I just checked it now. Yesterday I ate way under(couldn't leave work for lunch), was at 1000 calories for the day. I closed it out and it told me I would weigh 138 in 5 weeks if I kept up the good work lol. Would be awesome but rather not skip lunch again.0 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »
For one, you used to be able to export your data for free.shaunshaikh wrote: »This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall.
That is not true. I have used MFP since 2012 and not one thing has been moved from the free version to behind a paywall. Everything behind a paywall is either an additional function to an existing feature or is a new feature. There are a couple things that no longer function properly, but they also do not function properly behind the paywall.
And again, not true. When I first joined, I looked for a function that exported my data. MFP did not have one built in. What was available were scripts coded by other users and hosted on third-party websites. Those are still out there and most are still available. There were and still are browser extensions (available mostly for Firefox and Chrome) created by other users. The majority of those third-party scripts still work. The third-party scripts that no long work were not blocked by MFP; those that broke did so because MFP updated its software, and the script owners never bothered updating their scripts.10 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »I feel pretty comfortable in arguing that if you put a tool out there that tens of millions of people are using to improve their health, you should occasionally look for ways to improve it.
I'm sure UA (and their stockholders, to whom they actually do have a responsibility) would gladly accept your funding to pay for this research and the resulting software development costs.11 -
There is a business case for making a better tool and thus allowing more people to be engaged in your tool, seeing your ads.nikkipoooo wrote: »shaunshaikh wrote: »I feel pretty comfortable in arguing that if you put a tool out there that tens of millions of people are using to improve their health, you should occasionally look for ways to improve it.
I'm sure UA (and their stockholders, to whom they actually do have a responsibility) would gladly accept your funding to pay for this research and the resulting software development costs.
I have the raw export files from back in 2011, I must have used a third party software then.shaunshaikh wrote: »
For one, you used to be able to export your data for free.shaunshaikh wrote: »This tool literally operates the same exact way it did in 2011, with the exception that some features that were once free are now behind a pay wall.
That is not true. I have used MFP since 2012 and not one thing has been moved from the free version to behind a paywall. Everything behind a paywall is either an additional function to an existing feature or is a new feature. There are a couple things that no longer function properly, but they also do not function properly behind the paywall.
And again, not true. When I first joined, I looked for a function that exported my data. MFP did not have one built in. What was available were scripts coded by other users and hosted on third-party websites. Those are still out there and most are still available. There were and still are browser extensions (available mostly for Firefox and Chrome) created by other users. The majority of those third-party scripts still work. The third-party scripts that no long work were not blocked by MFP; those that broke did so because MFP updated its software, and the script owners never bothered updating their scripts.
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VintageFeline wrote: »I've never tried so I don't know but am I right MFP lets you close if 1200 gross? So if you are netting super low it will let you close? I think that's a flaw for sure.
Yep, it's 1200 gross. I was going to point out this very thing. Just tested it with my diary from yesterday (there were valid reasons for the low net!!). And actually I think it lets you close at 1000 gross. You can have a negative net intake, and be fine and dandy for closing so long as you hit the gross number.0 -
Because there's so much info already available...3
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Also, I'm not sure why you're so opposed to me advocating for tool improvements. I just want to see minor improvements in the tool so that MORE people are setup for success. No, it won't magically fix everybody's experience, but using this tool is not as good as it could be. From the very onset of building a new profile, I think the experience could be improved in order to get people on a more sustainable path that helps them to stay engaged in the process longer and ultimately be part of the community longer and ultimately see the health results that they want. I compare this to other tools and social networks that I've utilized from 2011 to now, like Facebook, Twitter, TurboTax, Mint, etc. and they're all innovating and making money doing it. I'd like to see more innovation and improvements here to see improved outcomes.8
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One time this person at my office offered me cake. For free! But it didn't have the walnuts like I wanted. I mean, it would have been so easy for her to add walnuts; she knows I like them! I've told her!! And Sally, my other coworker, likes cream cheese frosting. And Bill likes royal icing. But this cake had ganache. The nerve! I just feel like if she's going to offer everyone some cake, she really should address everybody's wants and needs. I know she'll have to buy more ingredients and probably hire a few additional bakers, but really, she shouldn't be offering me free cake if she can't give me and every other person in the office exactly what they want.
Edited because grammar.48 -
Have you even posted any of your ideas in the Feedback forum? Why did you post here if you push back (sometimes a bit aggressively) on those who disagree?
My company's product is 100% built on feedback. However...I can't build out a new feature if I don't know that people need it in the first place. Know how I find out? People tell me through the appropriate channels--our Feedback button, in discovery conversations, email, etc.
If you haven't, please share your feedback with MFP. They are a great group and we have had some fun discussions. Just don't expect your changes to happen overnight or for them to happen at all. At times the things you want aren't feasbile.
Also remember that MFP is not your doctor/wife/mother/father/dog, so please don't expect them to act like that. MFP is used to support your weight loss in hopes you work with your doctor, not be your weight loss.14 -
Sorry if I came off as too aggressive, I didn't mean to put down anyone. I'm just genuinely passionate about the topic and get frustrated when people casually dismiss my constructive ideas.10
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And also, while you're lecturing me about being aggressive, can we stop treating me like I'm some lazy simpleton? I've been on this tool and forum for years. I've researched more than most in many sources and competing view points. I go the extra mile in many ways in terms of tracking my own progress and comparing progress to expected results the way any scientist would. I'm an engineer by trade and therefore I'm always looking for better solutions to the problem and constant improvement. It's the way I'm wired.Also remember that MFP is not your doctor/wife/mother/father/dog, so please don't expect them to act like that. MFP is used to support your weight loss in hopes you work with your doctor, not be your weight loss.9 -
shaunshaikh wrote: »Also, I'm not sure why you're so opposed to me advocating for tool improvements. I just want to see minor improvements in the tool so that MORE people are setup for success. No, it won't magically fix everybody's experience, but using this tool is not as good as it could be. From the very onset of building a new profile, I think the experience could be improved in order to get people on a more sustainable path that helps them to stay engaged in the process longer and ultimately be part of the community longer and ultimately see the health results that they want. I compare this to other tools and social networks that I've utilized from 2011 to now, like Facebook, Twitter, TurboTax, Mint, etc. and they're all innovating and making money doing it. I'd like to see more innovation and improvements here to see improved outcomes.
By all means, advocate for tool improvements. We all have some we want to see. But again, the developers won't see them here on this board. They are not here reading the boards. They hardly ever come here as far as I can tell. There are numerous ways to get their attention that would be better than posting here on the General Diet and Weight Loss board. I'm not trying to stop you from trying to improve the site/app. I'm trying to keep you from wasting your time by thinking that this post is a way that will get anything done. Go! Advocate! Just maybe aim for the proper feedback channels.13 -
The point remains that you're barking up the wrong tree. The Feedback forum would be the appropriate place to air your concerns, where they might actually be seen by somebody connected with MFP and in a position to do something with them.9
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IMO the only bad part about MFP is the forums. So much non scientific information. Figured by now they'd adopt some kind of Reddit vote system so that the valuable scientific forum posts can be up-voted and the bro-science threads can go away faster. Here hoping eventually.8
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