Advice for Increasing 5K pace

caramel827 wrote: »

Eventually I do hope to pick up some speed but I think I'll focus on completing a few more 5Ks and then try each suggestion for at least 8 weeks (intervals and then trying to increase distance) and run a 5K after each 8 week session.

Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.

• 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down

You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

Doing intervals and weight training to build muscle is what really increases speed. (I may be too old for that!)

I'd be interested to read what that's based on?

It's always useful to read around coaching and alternative outlooks.

I looked up Lydiard on your recommendation. Very interesting. Mostly aimed at marathon distance, but perhaps applicable to improving 5k's as well. The point about building an aerobic base prior to interval training seems reasonable and is well taken.

Just like the OP, I mostly want to improve my 5k. I've been running 3-5 miles, but Iwill try adding in some even longer distances (however more slowly) and see if it helps my 5k performance.

stanmann571 wrote: »

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

caramel827 wrote: »

Eventually I do hope to pick up some speed but I think I'll focus on completing a few more 5Ks and then try each suggestion for at least 8 weeks (intervals and then trying to increase distance) and run a 5K after each 8 week session.

Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.

• 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down

You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.

And those would all be equally effective with half(or less) warmup/cooldown

I couldn't, in good conscience, agree with you. The purpose of a warm up is to prepare for the workout and reduce the risk of injury. From a coaching perspective the originator is currently on an 8 minute kilometre. At the Parkrun I go to that would place her in the lower third of finishers, possibly even in the lower 20%. To get into a mid-pack finish I'd be designing a plan to get her to a 6 minute mile, so a 25% improvement. In truth, just going longer will do that in the space of about 6-8 weeks, but as we're discussing intervals let's pretend that's a more effective mode of training.

The sessions I've listed are the speed phase of a 5K plan, so building on an aerobic base of someone who's already able to cover 6 miles, having built up to that over the first four weeks.

So assuming that warm up/ easy pace is an 8 minute mile you'd suggest an eight minute warm up before adding 400 metres at 25% faster. That's quite a jump. I'd support a shorter warm up for a lower pace differential, but at that point you're in the realms of just adding distance anyway.

There is a point about balancing fatigue and development, as fatigue sets in running form diminishes and injury risk increases. Again a good argument to build the aerobic base before indulging in speedwork.

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »

Doing intervals and weight training to build muscle is what really increases speed. (I may be too old for that!)

I'd be interested to read what that's based on?

It's always useful to read around coaching and alternative outlooks.

I looked up Lydiard on your recommendation. Very interesting. Mostly aimed at marathon distance, but perhaps applicable to improving 5k's as well. The point about building an aerobic base prior to interval training seems reasonable and is well taken.

Just like the OP, I mostly want to improve my 5k. I've been running 3-5 miles, but Iwill try adding in some even longer distances (however more slowly) and see if it helps my 5k performance.

He himself had most success at that distance but the principles are present in the vast majority ofstandard plans. Matt Fitzgerald wrote a fairly turgid book, along with a significantly over-complicated planning schema.

In practice a competitive 5K plan will have similar mileage to a mid-pack marathon plan, but the distribution of sessions will be different. Entering at about 30 miles per week and peaking at 50-60 miles per week. A marathoner or ultra runner might do one speedwork session per week, about a 10 mile run, whereas a 5K focus might do two, equally up to 8-10 miles each.

Fwiw my own experience was that at the end of C25K I was doing a 32 minute 5K, by the end of B210K I'd knocked that down to 27 minutes. At the end of a Half plan I was down to 24 minutes. I've not really focused on 5K myself as I'm an ultra runner, so beyond HM I've not made much improvement. Down to about 22 minutes now and I don't see any potential at the moment.

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

caramel827 wrote: »

Eventually I do hope to pick up some speed but I think I'll focus on completing a few more 5Ks and then try each suggestion for at least 8 weeks (intervals and then trying to increase distance) and run a 5K after each 8 week session.

Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.

• 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down

You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.

And those would all be equally effective with half(or less) warmup/cooldown

I couldn't, in good conscience, agree with you. The purpose of a warm up is to prepare for the workout and reduce the risk of injury. From a coaching perspective the originator is currently on an 8 minute kilometre. At the Parkrun I go to that would place her in the lower third of finishers, possibly even in the lower 20%. To get into a mid-pack finish I'd be designing a plan to get her to a 6 minute mile, so a 25% improvement. In truth, just going longer will do that in the space of about 6-8 weeks, but as we're discussing intervals let's pretend that's a more effective mode of training.

The sessions I've listed are the speed phase of a 5K plan, so building on an aerobic base of someone who's already able to cover 6 miles, having built up to that over the first four weeks.

So assuming that warm up/ easy pace is an 8 minute mile you'd suggest an eight minute warm up before adding 400 metres at 25% faster. That's quite a jump. I'd support a shorter warm up for a lower pace differential, but at that point you're in the realms of just adding distance anyway.

There is a point about balancing fatigue and development, as fatigue sets in running form diminishes and injury risk increases. Again a good argument to build the aerobic base before indulging in speedwork.

Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.

Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.

TavistockToad wrote: »

do the bridge to 10k next . the best way to increase your speed is to run farther.

Agreed, but use the 10% increase rule, so you don't over train and end up injuring yourself. And while increasing distance is what I have always heard is the best, I have also heard that Fartlek training can help run time (but I think this is a more advanced training technique for competition runners).

stanmann571 wrote: »

Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.

Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.

100% wrong.

"MeanderingMammal wrote: »

Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.

• 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down

You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.

And is thus totally inappropriate for someone who's running a 40-42 minute 5k.

thebiggreenmachine wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.

Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.

100% wrong.

LIke I said... your opinion is common... it's also silly and counterproductive for a beginning runner who just ran a 40 minute 5K and is running less than 10 miles a week.

spiriteagle99 wrote: »

I agree with MeanderingMamma about doing a good warmup before beginning intervals, both to increase total distance and to reduce risk of injury. It generally takes me about 1.5 - 2 miles before my body is completely warmed up. At that point, running becomes much easier and my pace improves. Trying to go fast too soon is likely to cause hamstring and other issues.

That may be true for you. It's not true for someone who's currently running less than 10 miles a week.

Doubling the distance run weekly is much more likely to cause injury for the person who asked the original question.

stanmann571 wrote: »

"MeanderingMammal wrote: »

Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.

• 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
• 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down

You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.

And is thus totally inappropriate for someone who's running a 40-42 minute 5k.

Which was the underlying point of illustrating what an intervals session means. I've already responded to you on this and highlighted that it's part of an improvement plan, and builds on a capacity development phase first.

For someone where the originator is the recommendation of interval training by the well meaning are wholly inappropriate.

I appreciate that we're coming from different places, your focus is on passing your annual fitness test. Personally I'll pass mine without getting out of warm up pace, but then my focus is on long distance. You run to pass the test.