Advice for Increasing 5K pace
Replies
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »caramel827 wrote: »Eventually I do hope to pick up some speed but I think I'll focus on completing a few more 5Ks and then try each suggestion for at least 8 weeks (intervals and then trying to increase distance) and run a 5K after each 8 week session.
Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.- 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.
And those would all be equally effective with half(or less) warmup/cooldown
I couldn't, in good conscience, agree with you. The purpose of a warm up is to prepare for the workout and reduce the risk of injury. From a coaching perspective the originator is currently on an 8 minute kilometre. At the Parkrun I go to that would place her in the lower third of finishers, possibly even in the lower 20%. To get into a mid-pack finish I'd be designing a plan to get her to a 6 minute mile, so a 25% improvement. In truth, just going longer will do that in the space of about 6-8 weeks, but as we're discussing intervals let's pretend that's a more effective mode of training.
The sessions I've listed are the speed phase of a 5K plan, so building on an aerobic base of someone who's already able to cover 6 miles, having built up to that over the first four weeks.
So assuming that warm up/ easy pace is an 8 minute mile you'd suggest an eight minute warm up before adding 400 metres at 25% faster. That's quite a jump. I'd support a shorter warm up for a lower pace differential, but at that point you're in the realms of just adding distance anyway.
There is a point about balancing fatigue and development, as fatigue sets in running form diminishes and injury risk increases. Again a good argument to build the aerobic base before indulging in speedwork.
Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.
Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.
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Well done on your first 5k! I agree - increasing your distance will help you run 5k faster. I've also used intervals to get used to running at a faster pace, which seems to have helped my 5k timr. You may also be interested in doing some cross training - working on your core especially can help with your running performance too.
As an avid runner, running 5 days a week, I highly agree with this. When you're ready, start running a bit farther.2 -
TavistockToad wrote: »do the bridge to 10k next . the best way to increase your speed is to run farther.
Agreed, but use the 10% increase rule, so you don't over train and end up injuring yourself. And while increasing distance is what I have always heard is the best, I have also heard that Fartlek training can help run time (but I think this is a more advanced training technique for competition runners).1 -
You're doing it right, just keep going forward and listen to your body. You have a good plan and good ideas - just go for it and have some fun.
-- ten year runner1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.
Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.
100% wrong.1 -
I agree with MeanderingMamma about doing a good warmup before beginning intervals, both to increase total distance and to reduce risk of injury. It generally takes me about 1.5 - 2 miles before my body is completely warmed up. At that point, running becomes much easier and my pace improves. Trying to go fast too soon is likely to cause hamstring and other issues.2
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"MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.- 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.
And is thus totally inappropriate for someone who's running a 40-42 minute 5k.thebiggreenmachine wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Doing a 20 minute warmup for 10 minutes of work isn't just silly, it's counterproductive. Ditto for the cooldown, It's common, but that doesn't make it less silly or less counterproductive.
Speed work is speed work, and capacity building is capacity building, and there's no reason to do them on the same day.
100% wrong.
LIke I said... your opinion is common... it's also silly and counterproductive for a beginning runner who just ran a 40 minute 5K and is running less than 10 miles a week.spiriteagle99 wrote: »I agree with MeanderingMamma about doing a good warmup before beginning intervals, both to increase total distance and to reduce risk of injury. It generally takes me about 1.5 - 2 miles before my body is completely warmed up. At that point, running becomes much easier and my pace improves. Trying to go fast too soon is likely to cause hamstring and other issues.
That may be true for you. It's not true for someone who's currently running less than 10 miles a week.
Doubling the distance run weekly is much more likely to cause injury for the person who asked the original question.1 -
These are great suggestions, can't wait to try them! Thanks everyone!0
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stanmann571 wrote: »"MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.- 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.
And is thus totally inappropriate for someone who's running a 40-42 minute 5k.
Which was the underlying point of illustrating what an intervals session means. I've already responded to you on this and highlighted that it's part of an improvement plan, and builds on a capacity development phase first.
For someone where the originator is the recommendation of interval training by the well meaning are wholly inappropriate.
I appreciate that we're coming from different places, your focus is on passing your annual fitness test. Personally I'll pass mine without getting out of warm up pace, but then my focus is on long distance. You run to pass the test.0 -
Great job on the 5k! I have been jogging 5k's lately as well, but have yet to do an event. Just keep going and it will get better
You will see a time improvement the more that you do it! 1 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »"MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Can I make the suggestion that you try it the other way round, build your aerobic capacity, and then use intervals. To illustrate these are a few interval sessions that are appropriate to someone improving their 5K time.- 2 mile warm-up, 5 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2 mile warm-up, 4 x 600 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 3 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 6 x 400 meters at 5k goal race pace with 100m slower rest, hammer interval 6 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
- 2-3 mile warm-up, 4 x 800 meters at 5k goal race pace with 200m slower rest, hammer interval 4 as fast as you can, 1-2 mile cool down
You'll note that the most basic of those covers nearly 5 miles with the longest covering 8 miles.
And is thus totally inappropriate for someone who's running a 40-42 minute 5k.
Which was the underlying point of illustrating what an intervals session means. I've already responded to you on this and highlighted that it's part of an improvement plan, and builds on a capacity development phase first.
For someone where the originator is the recommendation of interval training by the well meaning are wholly inappropriate.
I appreciate that we're coming from different places, your focus is on passing your annual fitness test. Personally I'll pass mine without getting out of warm up pace, but then my focus is on long distance. You run to pass the test.
I appreciate that your ivory tower position is that everyone should want to run 30 miles a week and 3-4 marathons a year.
It's neither practical nor applicable to the rest of the world where we don't get paid to train, and doing more than 15 miles a week means sacrificing time with family or other necessary activities.4 -
stanmann571 wrote: »I appreciate that your ivory tower position is that everyone should want to run 30 miles a week and 3-4 marathons a year.
The originator wants to improve her 5K time. Moving from 9 miles per week to 18 miles per week, of easy paced running, will do that. If she wants to make more improvement moving up to 24 miles per week would make that viable by adding a speed session, whilst managing injury risk.
It really is that simple.It's neither practical nor applicable to the rest of the world where we don't get paid to train, and doing more than 15 miles a week means sacrificing time with family or other necessary activities.
I wish I did get paid to train, that way I'd have done more than three marathons, two ultras, a half marathon, 10K and eight 5Ks so-far this year. I've got another two marathons and a night-time half before the end of the year though, which I'm quite looking forward to.
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »I appreciate that your ivory tower position is that everyone should want to run 30 miles a week and 3-4 marathons a year.
The originator wants to improve her 5K time. Moving from 9 miles per week to 18 miles per week, of easy paced running, will do that. If she wants to make more improvement moving up to 24 miles per week would make that viable by adding a speed session, whilst managing injury risk.
It really is that simple.
Except there's no need to go to 18 miles per week when 12 is more than sufficient. Which can easily include a speed session.
Your advice is consistently both nonapplicable and unhelpful for casual and recreational runners.1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »I appreciate that your ivory tower position is that everyone should want to run 30 miles a week and 3-4 marathons a year.
The originator wants to improve her 5K time. Moving from 9 miles per week to 18 miles per week, of easy paced running, will do that. If she wants to make more improvement moving up to 24 miles per week would make that viable by adding a speed session, whilst managing injury risk.
It really is that simple.
Except there's no need to go to 18 miles per week when 12 is more than sufficient. Which can easily include a speed session.
Your advice is consistently both nonapplicable and unhelpful for casual and recreational runners.
In your opinion, of course.
Personally I'll stick with advice that's founded in coaching principles, for recreational short distance runners. 18 miles is only three hours worth of running.
When well meaning people post nonsense advice, in quite comfortable challenging it.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »I appreciate that your ivory tower position is that everyone should want to run 30 miles a week and 3-4 marathons a year.
The originator wants to improve her 5K time. Moving from 9 miles per week to 18 miles per week, of easy paced running, will do that. If she wants to make more improvement moving up to 24 miles per week would make that viable by adding a speed session, whilst managing injury risk.
It really is that simple.
Except there's no need to go to 18 miles per week when 12 is more than sufficient. Which can easily include a speed session.
Your advice is consistently both nonapplicable and unhelpful for casual and recreational runners.
In your opinion, of course.
Personally I'll stick with advice that's founded in coaching principles, for recreational short distance runners. 18 miles is only three hours worth of running.
When well meaning people post nonsense advice, in quite comfortable challenging it.
Me too.0 -
Well, 18 miles would take me 4 hours, because I'm slow.
OP, I'm where you are. I've made one run each week my long run, and am gradually increasing that each week while keeping my other runs shorter. I've found that my shorter runs are just naturally getting faster.
That's just my personal experience, and I'm still a newbie.2 -
This might already be in this long thread, but try using map my run set up to alert you to pace every quarter mile. If your mind drifts and your pace slows, you'll know to speed up.0
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Wow- the different viewpoints really give a lot to think about! And yes, I am absolutely a casual runner. I am actually more of a walker- yep I'm the person you want to move out the way when you are racing lol. I started walking a year ago, running in March with finally completing a 5K in August. (As one poster stated with family and work I was making time for it but probably not enough). Tomorrow I'm signed up for a 4 miler which I will probably run some and walk some.
I do think there is something to the distance thing. I remember thinking I could never ever walk 5K. I just did a 10K and I'm signed up for a 15K in a month.
But running... well the thought of running that length gives me chills lol but I do think there is something to adding distance also adding speed. I'm going to keep at it and listen to my body as someone suggested.
I think I am still in a complete versus compete mode but I will compete against myself only for now!
Thanks so much for all the advice- keep it coming!1 -
caramel827 wrote: »Wow- the different viewpoints really give a lot to think about! And yes, I am absolutely a casual runner. I am actually more of a walker
I thought it might be useful to give a bit of context to some of the advice. On this side of the pond there are two routes for coaches to train in; on-track and off-track. Off track has three levels of training, two of which are largely aimed at coaching casual or recreational runners. The Leader in Running and Walking Fitness, and Leader in Running Fitness are pretty much aimed at guiding new runners to 5K, improving pace at short distances of up to 10K. Coach in Running Fitness would prepare someone to design bespoke training plans and guide at longer distances.
Much of the advice upthread is straight out of the LiRF playbook.
I'd also add that there is nothing wrong with using a run/ walk method. A friend does that at all her races, and runs regular marathons and ultras.
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