Recomp on a moderate ketogenic diet - any thoughts?
sevas717
Posts: 27 Member
I've been on a traditional ketogenic diet (30% protein, 65% fat, 5% carbs) since July, 2017, and have lost 46 lbs already (from 245 to 199 lbs, I'm 5'8"). Also, since about Aug 1st I have included two days of fasting (24 hrs of <200 kCal intake). At first, losses were due solely to caloric deficiency, but in September I started going to the gym 6x a week, focusing on strength training with post-lifting cardio. Now I've caught the bug, and am excited and motivated to make muscle mass gains, as my next wellness goal. Problem is, there seems to be some controversy about the ideal diet for this. Do I bulk and cut? Do I try and recomp? So much conflicting stuff out there, and this isn't my field (I'm a scientist, but I study cancer, not exercise phys).
I've been doing some reading of literature, and it seems there is a good evidence base for a moderate ketogenic diet that can still provide good hypertrophic response. However, I can only get so much from papers, and I'm wondering if others have some real-life wisdom to contribute to the discussion. I'd love to hear your take on this!
My plan: slowly increase carbs and protein so that I am on a more moderate ketogenic diet (35% protein, 55% fat, 10% carbs). Increasing my caloric intake on non-fasting days (Mon, Tue, Thurs, Sat) to at least maintenance (~2400 kCal). Lift on those days (alternating between lower and upper body focus, or cycling between olympic lifts). On fasting days (Tue, Fri ~ 240 kCal) do HIIT cardio only. On Sunday, eat less (1200kCal) and rest (day off
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The hope is to "recomp" by lifting on non-fasting days and doing HIIT on fasting days, still maintain moderate ketone levels (love the effect on concentration and energy) but enough carbs and protein for muscle hypertrophy. Do you think that will allow me to continue to loose weight while maximizing muscle gains (which I think have been slow for me, with the more trad ketogenic macros).
I've been doing some reading of literature, and it seems there is a good evidence base for a moderate ketogenic diet that can still provide good hypertrophic response. However, I can only get so much from papers, and I'm wondering if others have some real-life wisdom to contribute to the discussion. I'd love to hear your take on this!
My plan: slowly increase carbs and protein so that I am on a more moderate ketogenic diet (35% protein, 55% fat, 10% carbs). Increasing my caloric intake on non-fasting days (Mon, Tue, Thurs, Sat) to at least maintenance (~2400 kCal). Lift on those days (alternating between lower and upper body focus, or cycling between olympic lifts). On fasting days (Tue, Fri ~ 240 kCal) do HIIT cardio only. On Sunday, eat less (1200kCal) and rest (day off
.The hope is to "recomp" by lifting on non-fasting days and doing HIIT on fasting days, still maintain moderate ketone levels (love the effect on concentration and energy) but enough carbs and protein for muscle hypertrophy. Do you think that will allow me to continue to loose weight while maximizing muscle gains (which I think have been slow for me, with the more trad ketogenic macros).
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Replies
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At 199 lbs and 5'8" you still need to cut. You are still overfat and insulin sensitivity and muscle gains favor the lean..
Typically keto diets are not very favorable to muscle gains. But you can incorporate refeeds (ckd) and time carbs around your lifting. I have seen this as a effective but they were also noobs to lifting so it might have been coincidental or noob gains.
Also, id probably do the opposite of what you are doing. Fasting, cardio post lifting and keto arent that effective. Fasting will not support recovery.
Eta, you are averaging 1600ish calories per day which tends to be low for a male who is active. And i suspect your fasting days are super low on protein. More reasons, this doesn't seem like a good approach.5 -
Don't overthink things. I get that it's exciting, but I can't tell you how many people I've seen get mentally burned out trying to research all of the minor aspects of health and fitness. Get your protein, follow a program with progressive overload (and if you're a beginner, one that involves linear progression), and if your goal is to recomp, make sure your calories match up with your total weekly energy expenditure. Be consistent with all of these things and you will see progress, though I should note that at your height and weight, I don't recommend recomping, especially since it sounds like you haven't been lifting seriously for more than a month and a half. Please cut.
Protein: Most would recommend you shoot for somewhere between 0.8g-1g per lb of bodyweight a day. 200g of protein is a lot. If that sounds fun to you, go for it, but I'd recommend finding your lean body mass (LBM) and then eating 1g per lb of LBM.
Fat and carbs: It's gonna be harder to lift without carbs. That's it. The glucose you get from gluconeogenesis isn't very sufficient for explosive exercises, but you'll manage. Everyone does. If you're doing a keto diet then there's no reason to be concerned about fat, but if for whatever reason you decide to introduce carbs into your system, try to get at least 0.3g-0.4g of fat per lb of bodyweight a day. You won't die if you don't, but fat regulates hormones and testosterone is a hormone and all that.0 -
Hmm, good advice here @psuLemon and @ent3rsandman . Thanks. Fasting for me is not solely for fitness reasons, but I can increase caloric intake on those days via vegan diet if needed to support recovery. Thanks for the advice.
(BTW, I don't mind overthinking things I do it for a living. 2 -
I've been doing keto and lifting for the past 6 months. I've lost 33 pounds - not a lot on keto. My muscle gain is undeniable. I'm lifting 4x as heavy and my major muscles are rock hard.
I have a carb cheat meal (all the vegetables!) once a month.
Would I lift more with more carbs? Maybe. But at this point I'm used to what I'm doing. It hasn't stopped me.
Additionally, I started running, and I'm up to a 1.5 hour run 3x a week.
The idea that "you need carbs for output" is completely bogus.5 -
ent3rsandman wrote: »Don't overthink things. I get that it's exciting, but I can't tell you how many people I've seen get mentally burned out trying to research all of the minor aspects of health and fitness. Get your protein, follow a program with progressive overload (and if you're a beginner, one that involves linear progression), and if your goal is to recomp, make sure your calories match up with your total weekly energy expenditure. Be consistent with all of these things and you will see progress, though I should note that at your height and weight, I don't recommend recomping, especially since it sounds like you haven't been lifting seriously for more than a month and a half. Please cut.
Protein: Most would recommend you shoot for somewhere between 0.8g-1g per lb of bodyweight a day. 200g of protein is a lot. If that sounds fun to you, go for it, but I'd recommend finding your lean body mass (LBM) and then eating 1g per lb of LBM.
Fat and carbs: It's gonna be harder to lift without carbs. That's it. The glucose you get from gluconeogenesis isn't very sufficient for explosive exercises, but you'll manage. Everyone does. If you're doing a keto diet then there's no reason to be concerned about fat, but if for whatever reason you decide to introduce carbs into your system, try to get at least 0.3g-0.4g of fat per lb of bodyweight a day. You won't die if you don't, but fat regulates hormones and testosterone is a hormone and all that.
Do you really think a 5'8" male at almost 200 lbs can recomp? That isnt over thinking, its evaluating the obvious. Recomps are not effective when you are still significantly overweight.2 -
I've been doing keto and lifting for the past 6 months. I've lost 33 pounds - not a lot on keto. My muscle gain is undeniable. I'm lifting 4x as heavy and my major muscles are rock hard.
I have a carb cheat meal (all the vegetables!) once a month.
Would I lift more with more carbs? Maybe. But at this point I'm used to what I'm doing. It hasn't stopped me.
Additionally, I started running, and I'm up to a 1.5 hour run 3x a week.
The idea that "you need carbs for output" is completely bogus.
People commonly confuse muscle definition and strength gains for muscle gains. Its highly unlikely that you gained muscle in a deficit, even more so with keto.6 -
I've been doing keto and lifting for the past 6 months. I've lost 33 pounds - not a lot on keto. My muscle gain is undeniable. I'm lifting 4x as heavy and my major muscles are rock hard.
I have a carb cheat meal (all the vegetables!) once a month.
Would I lift more with more carbs? Maybe. But at this point I'm used to what I'm doing. It hasn't stopped me.
Additionally, I started running, and I'm up to a 1.5 hour run 3x a week.
The idea that "you need carbs for output" is completely bogus.
People commonly confuse muscle definition and strength gains for muscle gains. Its highly unlikely that you gained muscle in a deficit, even more so with keto.
Well, I've lost fat, lost weight, and gained inches around my arms and legs and lost inches around my waist and hips. So...4 -
Same here. Based on an extensive anti-Keto post history, I suggest taking psuLemon's opinion with a grain of salt. Recent studies I've read have confirmed muscle gain on ketogenic diet, albeit in mice. Still, it shows it is possible.12
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Same here. Based on an extensive anti-Keto post history, I suggest taking psuLemon's opinion with a grain of salt. Recent studies I've read have confirmed muscle gain on ketogenic diet, albeit in mice. Still, it shows it is possible.
Mice =/= humans.
PS: psuLemon isn't anti-keto as you have wrongly assumed. He's anti unsubstantiated claims of *any* particular way of eating. It's just that keto seems to have the most of them.
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Same here. Based on an extensive anti-Keto post history, I suggest taking psuLemon's opinion with a grain of salt. Recent studies I've read have confirmed muscle gain on ketogenic diet, albeit in mice. Still, it shows it is possible.
What a very uneducated comment. I am not anti-keto at all. In fact, I have several ketogenic clients. But go ahead and try to recomp while being overfat. Doesn't bother me.5 -
I've been doing keto and lifting for the past 6 months. I've lost 33 pounds - not a lot on keto. My muscle gain is undeniable. I'm lifting 4x as heavy and my major muscles are rock hard.
I have a carb cheat meal (all the vegetables!) once a month.
Would I lift more with more carbs? Maybe. But at this point I'm used to what I'm doing. It hasn't stopped me.
Additionally, I started running, and I'm up to a 1.5 hour run 3x a week.
The idea that "you need carbs for output" is completely bogus.
People commonly confuse muscle definition and strength gains for muscle gains. Its highly unlikely that you gained muscle in a deficit, even more so with keto.
Well, I've lost fat, lost weight, and gained inches around my arms and legs and lost inches around my waist and hips. So...
There are a variety of things that can influence inches, such as increase blood flow, swelling, and if you were completely new to lifting, possible noob gains. But without dexa scans all you can do is make suppositions about what occurred. The studies in humans doesn't really support muscle gains during isocaloric positions.6 -
Same here. Based on an extensive anti-Keto post history, I suggest taking psuLemon's opinion with a grain of salt. Recent studies I've read have confirmed muscle gain on ketogenic diet, albeit in mice. Still, it shows it is possible.
That's both rude and incorrect.
psuLemon gives consistently helpful and balanced advice based on science, knowledge and experience irrespective of people's personal dietary choices.
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So, I am going to chime in on this....
I would not necessarily say that @psuLemon is anit-Keto. Have I seen all of "his" posts? No, sir! I have posted about Keto (due to higher A1C levels for a decade and my concern about loosing my strength and and and) and have found his posts very informative. So, not taking sides or defending anyone, necessarily. Just sharing my experiences (limited, fo sure....).
Anyway, I am still recovering from something and have not been in the gym for eight weeks at this point (or was it 12?.....any way, a long <kitten> time) and have been using this "can't go in the gym" wisely. Been playing with nutrition and really looking at a Keto Diet.
Health is first and foremost with me. Big numbers (for me) and Gym PRs are second. Health goals are first. The gym goals are second. I am looking at Keto hard but am thinking that I might move in that direction and see how things go. Once I get in the gym, that is. That is where I am going to see how things work for me. Don't really give a <kitten> how it works for others. Well, I mean, I do, of course! But I am really interested in how it works for me.
So, to the recomp question.....
Dude, no offense. I have never spoken with you before and you likely have never seen any of my posts. *AND* I am going to reference something that I really do not agree with, so call my a hypocrite right out of the gate. But, at your weight and height BMI (yes, those three nasty letters) has you as obese. Understand the spirit of that comment from me....I am not anyone who criticizes anyone. But, a recomp might not be the best idea - regardless of what type of "feed the machine" you follow.
Why am I suggesting that? A cut would possibly be a better idea at this point to get you to a "leaner" state. So, maybe loose another 20lbs of so? Via a cut. So, for the next 12 - 16 weeks consider that. Once you get to 180lbs (or so....) then consider a recomp.
A bulk and a cut are the same thing - clearly, just in the opposite direction. A cut is below maintenance caloric intake with the goal of loosing weight | body fat (not necessarily the same thing, mind you) and a bulk is above maintenance caloric intake with the goal of adding size, muscle, strength. A side benefit to a bulk is that you add body fat (largely in part due to the caloric surplus). Both are very focused and somewhat extreme and neither is sustainable (read: you can not go on a 'cut for life' or a 'bulk for life').
A recomp is where you eat at maintenance and lift as if you were on a bulk (well, more in that direction). This is sustainable. It is also slow.......does it work? Abso - freaking - lutely! Could you do this? Again, absolutely. But a cut might be a good thing. A really good thing.
Now, and I am not getting personal - but I do not see why you are doing Keto? I am interested - as mentioned - because of the higher A1C value that I have had for the last decade. You do not have to answer this question....but it might help.
And, I agree.....there is a ton of information out there. It really depends on whom you believe. There are lots and lots and lots of folks out there who say "Keto and lifting heavy, good luck!" and there are others who say "Keto and lifting heavy, heck yes! Been doing it for a good while". Theory tells me that Keto and lifting heavy do not mix well. But, an on-line TDEE calculator tells me that I should be at 2200 Calories based on gender, age, height and weight and I am close to that, but not exactly. So, that thing is off - for me. Might the 'theory' be off for me, too? Only one real way to find out.
And, indirectly, I have. I have mentioned this before....I have played with higher carb days "the day before before" and "the day of" heavy lifting days (usually, squats and dead lifts). I am *MUCH* strong on a higher carb day on heavy lifts days than before. So, that likely tells me a lot about me. But, who knows. I will move in that direction.
Anyway, I would suggest a cut.....get that 10% body weight gone.....via a cut....and then re-evaluate. All with the caveat.....not sure if there is a medical reason for you going Keto.
Hope this helps, man! Very interested in how things go for you.2 -
I want to take a little while to internalize all of these excellent points, but in the meantime please allow me to apologize. I reread my earlier comment and clearly it was an overly emotional response. I picked up on what I noticed was some pushback on some of my earlier kept-related comments, and my response lacked to humility I should have had as a newbie. Clearly PSU has been in this scene a lot longer than me, and I still have a lot to learn. I make no excuses for my overreaction and apologize to the MFP community. I have honestly had great results with ketogenesis, despite (as was pointed out several times) still being "fat" and my passion for seeing those results in other people was not adequately briddled.4
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*keto related0
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An interesting article with input from Alan Aragon and Susan Kliener. A group of studies listed. Keto has beneficial application for some things like Insulin Resistance but, from the info in this article, it is less than ideal for training gains.
http://www.bodyforwife.com/keto-and-low-carb-diets-kill-performance/
Based on the info provided, I agree with others that you are likely at too high a BF% to consider recomp. I'm guessing you are at mid to high 20s at your height and weight. Ideal recomp range is 15% or lower. Probably the right strategy would be to cut while lifting to preserve max muscle mass till in that range or till you are happy with how you look.4 -
An interesting article with input from Alan Aragon and Susan Kliener. A group of studies listed. Keto has beneficial application for some things like Insulin Resistance but, from the info in this article, it is less than ideal for training gains.
http://www.bodyforwife.com/keto-and-low-carb-diets-kill-performance/
Based on the info provided, I agree with others that you are likely at too high a BF% to consider recomp. I'm guessing you are at mid to high 20s at your height and weight. Ideal recomp range is 15% or lower. Probably the right strategy would be to cut while lifting to preserve max muscle mass till in that range or till you are happy with how you look.
Perfect, based on this and other comments, I agree. Just finishing up a solid cardio session now! I'll update everyone when I get to 15% BF. Any thoughts on how to confirm this? (I have a pretty wide frame (i.e. Shoulders) so sometimes I think the targets are not quite on the mark in terms of weight.)0 -
There are several ways to get your body fat %. The ones that are most available are not so great in terms of accuracy or consistency. Talking about the scales mostly. There are calipers that you can purchase and have someone do for you (but those are not so great, either). The best way would be a dexa scan. However, not likely super afforable. Well, generally speaking.
If you go to a gym and they have Personal Trainers there maybe you could ask them?0 -
You can also post pics and get an eyeball guess from the experienced here. I'm not fussed on exact numbers, I go by the mirror and the thoughts of a couple of knowledgeable friends. Maybe one day I'll get a Bodpod/DEXA done but not sure I'll ever care enough. Not like I'm a physique competitor.2
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Both of the responses above are good ones. There are several methods. The most reliable are dexa scans and Hydrostatic body composition testing. But as Vintage says, it doesn't really matter if the numbers are dead on. A visual works. When abs are beginning to show and you are fairly lean, you can tell. There are also online sources for pictures of men at different body fat% for a visual reference.0
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We have radically different diets (I'm a high carb cyclist) but your current stats (height & weight) and eating pattern are similar to where I started from. I was 198lbs @ 5'9" on a good day.
Lost at rate of about 1lb/week to get to my initial goal of 175lbs. Lifting weights and lots of cardio the whole time. I followed the 5:2 eating pattern of five days at maintenance and two days at c.600 calories. I certainly couldn't have done HIIT on a fasting day like you do but did LISS cardio or strength training after a period of acclimatisation.
Apart from the expected fat loss scans also showed small loss of lean mass despite "doing the right things" of high protein, strength training, moderate deficit.
Then recomped at a tiny deficit interspersed with periods of maintenance to lose next 7lbs. Gained muscle/lean mass while losing fat at approximate ratio of 1:2. It appeared that, for me at least, calorie deficit/rate of loss had to be really small, as little as 1lb/month to recomp while losing weight.
Strength increase during this period was really good (+50% on some lifts).
You have an age advantage I'm sure (I was 52 when I started dieting). I also had the disadvantage of being very limited on lower body weight training by injury as well as my cycling commitments so didn't get much increase in lower body measurements.
I probably only got to 15% body fat when I dieted down to 161lbs but I've actually "recomped back up" to 168lbs since then. No accurate idea of current BF% as it's not of any real interest to me these days.
PS - Abs appearing but without much definition seems a reasonable (and free!) guess for 15% BF.
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I want to take a little while to internalize all of these excellent points, but in the meantime please allow me to apologize. I reread my earlier comment and clearly it was an overly emotional response. I picked up on what I noticed was some pushback on some of my earlier kept-related comments, and my response lacked to humility I should have had as a newbie. Clearly PSU has been in this scene a lot longer than me, and I still have a lot to learn. I make no excuses for my overreaction and apologize to the MFP community. I have honestly had great results with ketogenesis, despite (as was pointed out several times) still being "fat" and my passion for seeing those results in other people was not adequately briddled.
No worries.
Honestly, I was just trying to be honest with you. I don't think you are in a good position to recomp. As others mentioned, men should be closer to the 15 -18% body fat range.
One of my recent keto people I worked with to recomp. In six months, she went from 21% bf down to 16%. All confirmed with multiple dexa scans; but keep in mind that LBM =/= muscle (it's everything not fat muscle). We had her at 50g a carbs per day, with almost 100% of those carbs around her lifting sessions. Additionally, I had her set at 1g of pro/lb of bw (higher than most keto'ers). And finally, and this is very important, she was a completely new lifter. Like, never has done weight training. So we went from nothing (all cardio) to incorporating a 3 day full body routine focused on primary the core lifts (DL, Squat, Bench, OHP).
Now, having said that, being overfat does put you in a beneficial position as you can use fat stores for energy and may have some ability to improve your body. If you are trying to maximize whatever potential you can, I'd recommend a handful of things. First, follow a structured progressive overload program, like one from the list below. Second, I'd consider putting protein to at least 140 to 160g. If you can, I'd spread it out (if there is any theoretical benefit, it would come from consistent protein to enable MPS). And lastly, I'd time some carbs around your training session.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
When you talk HIIT, are we talking true HIIT (sprinting) or at we talking more tabata/calisthenics/plyometrics/etc? If it's true HIIT, there may be a recovery issue, which could impede muscle growth and/or inhibit volume gains.
Personally, diet compliance is the most important. So if you don't want to modify it, then no biggy. At best, I can make some suggestions to help improve the performance that you can obtain.1 -
Yeah. I didn't say it would be pretty or effective. I can poke a hole in a wall with a plastic fork once every day for the rest of my life. It may take 80 years but is something going to change between day 1 and day 29,200? Yeah.Do you really think a 5'8" male at almost 200 lbs can recomp? That isnt over thinking, its evaluating the obvious. Recomps are not effective when you are still significantly overweight.
He's not overthinking cutting or bulking or recomping; he's overthinking the rest of his post.
Stuff like this is what I'm talking about.Same here. Based on an extensive anti-Keto post history, I suggest taking psuLemon's opinion with a grain of salt. Recent studies I've read have confirmed muscle gain on ketogenic diet, albeit in mice. Still, it shows it is possible.3
This discussion has been closed.
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