Run: building muscle

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  • BrianSharpe
    BrianSharpe Posts: 9,248 Member
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    Dwayne Johnson does 45 minutes of cardio every morning before breakfast, then eats and goes to the gym and lifts, Brandon White from Buff Dudes does an hour of fasted cardio every morning also, these are just a couple of examples of people with a lot of muscle that still do conditioning, cardio being catabolic is a myth perpetuated by the lazy.

    If you are untrained you will gain some muscle as your body adapts, but you won't get jacked.

    And I'm pretty confident that Dwayne Johnson is not eating at a caloric deficit except when he may be cutting to look more ripped in a movie.

    I suspect that much of the myth of cardio being catabolic comes from the fact that most elite runners tend to have very slight builds but it is probably a chicken and egg situation. They're successful as runners because they're smallish (and worked their *kitten* off training), to lose significant amounts of lean muscle mass you have to be at an extreme caloric deficit for an extended period of time.
  • tomaattikastike
    tomaattikastike Posts: 62 Member
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    @Azdak, I certainly respect your credentials, but if the hill is steep enough, and you run up fast enough, I would say that it can give you a really good strength workout. This video is somewhat comical, but it still illustrates the point. The runner lifts his body by about 2 feet with every step (of course, it is also extremely demanding cardiovascularly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWGU-PmgVaM
  • BrianSharpe
    BrianSharpe Posts: 9,248 Member
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    @Azdak, I certainly respect your credentials, but if the hill is steep enough, and you run up fast enough, I would say that it can give you a really good strength workout. This video is somewhat comical, but it still illustrates the point. The runner lifts his body by about 2 feet with every step (of course, it is also extremely demanding cardiovascularly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWGU-PmgVaM

    Hence his saying that the adaptation is only to the extent needed. You the same in cyclists.....a recreational cyclist riding on relatively flat routes won't see a lot of growth in their quads, train for riding track or extremely hilly courses and it's a whole different story but it's still a case of adaptation based on need.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    @Azdak, I certainly respect your credentials, but if the hill is steep enough, and you run up fast enough, I would say that it can give you a really good strength workout. This video is somewhat comical, but it still illustrates the point. The runner lifts his body by about 2 feet with every step (of course, it is also extremely demanding cardiovascularly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWGU-PmgVaM


    Once again, not really. Yes it will increase leg strength at first for someone who does not lift weights. But it is not the same as doing squats, lunges, or any other progressive resistance training exercise. It will make you a better hill runner, and, as you say, it is great for cardio training. But it won’t result in progressively increasing leg strength.

    It’s not opinion, or moral judgement against hill running. Specific exercises result in very specific training adaptations. It’s conceivable that someone who doesn’t lift weights could run steps or run hills and feel “stronger” their legs and feel perfectly happy with that. Still doesn’t make it a “strength workout”.

  • Cherimoose
    Cherimoose Posts: 5,208 Member
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    sijomial wrote: »
    Cherimoose wrote: »
    Dwayne Johnson does 45 minutes of cardio every morning before breakfast, then eats and goes to the gym and lifts, Brandon White from Buff Dudes does an hour of fasted cardio every morning also, these are just a couple of examples of people with a lot of muscle that still do conditioning, cardio being catabolic is a myth perpetuated by the lazy. .

    Not to be the logical-fallacy police, but maybe their lifting counteracts some of the muscle lost from doing fasted cardio, and that they'd be even bigger without cardio. :+1:

    Why do you think he would lose any muscle from fasted cardio?

    I don't. I was pointing out the weak proof that an activity isn't catabolic since buff lifters do it. :+1:
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
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    I would say that trail running can develop the muscles to a degree. Especially stabilizer muscles.
  • pzarnosky
    pzarnosky Posts: 256 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    Cherimoose wrote: »
    Dwayne Johnson does 45 minutes of cardio every morning before breakfast, then eats and goes to the gym and lifts, Brandon White from Buff Dudes does an hour of fasted cardio every morning also, these are just a couple of examples of people with a lot of muscle that still do conditioning, cardio being catabolic is a myth perpetuated by the lazy. .

    Not to be the logical-fallacy police, but maybe their lifting counteracts some of the muscle lost from doing fasted cardio, and that they'd be even bigger without cardio. :+1:

    I'm also not sure I'd use Dwayne Johnson as the baseline for MFP scenarios.

    .... especially considering he isn't natty.

    I'm glad someone said it. The super special "supplements" they take bend the rules a bit.
  • mreichard
    mreichard Posts: 235 Member
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    scorpio516 wrote: »
    N=1

    I spend no time in the gym. I run. I bike a little. I'm usually in the top 5% of finishers in a 5k.
    I can squat 2x my body weight. I can bench about 50% of my body weight. I carry almost no fat on my legs.

    But unless you are my brother, I can't tell you how you'll adapt to running.

    I think you're right that it varies wildly by individual. When I was running a lot in my mid 40s, I used to train fairly hard for a recreational runner (a 19:00 5k in the middle of a 7 mile run was a typical tempo day). I didn't lift at all. I would have struggled to squat 50% of my body weight with good form, but I could probably bench 80% of my weight. Also, I've always been able to do at least 10 chin-ups regardless of training.
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
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    I'm not a high volume runner, but when I run semi- regularly, my squats and lunges get better and when I squat, my runs get better. To me, that's strength improvement.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    lorrpb wrote: »
    I'm not a high volume runner, but when I run semi- regularly, my squats and lunges get better and when I squat, my runs get better. To me, that's strength improvement.

    It's because your slow-twitch endurance muscles can help out your fast-twitch for lifting somewhat, and vice versa I think even more (especially think short increases to intensity like up a short hill at decent pace).

    For the running, unless you just plain did nothing and all the muscle atrophied, it's more likely your Central Nervous System is quickly getting accustomed to firing the whole muscle for use.

    Much like when you start lifting, many weeks of improvements (beyond finding the right working weight) are nothing more than form improvements allowing more weight, and the whole muscle being used better and better for more weight - that's strength improvements.
  • ijsantos2005
    ijsantos2005 Posts: 306 Member
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    scorpio516 wrote: »
    N=1

    I spend no time in the gym. I run. I bike a little. I'm usually in the top 5% of finishers in a 5k.
    I can quarter squat 2x my body weight. I can bench about 50% of my body weight. I carry almost no fat on my legs.

    But unless you are my brother, I can't tell you how you'll adapt to running.

    Fixed.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    scorpio516 wrote: »
    N=1

    I spend no time in the gym. I run. I bike a little. I'm usually in the top 5% of finishers in a 5k.
    I can quarter squat 2x my body weight. I can bench about 50% of my body weight. I carry almost no fat on my legs.

    But unless you are my brother, I can't tell you how you'll adapt to running.

    Fixed.

    Are you saying their written experience was incorrect and needed fixing?

    Or you are attempting to write about yourself and fixing their experience to match your own?

    Confusing way of doing it if the latter - rather presumptuous if the former.
  • SLLeask
    SLLeask Posts: 489 Member
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    JustRobby1 wrote: »
    Until relatively recently, all I did as far as exercise was run. This went on for the better part of a year with my miles per week creeping higher and higher eventually going into the 35ish range. Did I get "buff" from this? Nope. However, I did get as lean as I have ever been in my entire life. I have a 32 inch waist for the first time since probably 6th grade, my resting heart read is 49-51, and my cardiovascular system is straight up a force of nature.

    All of this being said, I have recently come to learn the benefits of strength and core work. Running is not going to develop this. While the gym is not really my cup of tea, I only go 2-3 times a week and even in the month or so since I started I have noticed a difference. I suspect my efforts will eventually make me a stronger runner. The program I am now doing was given to me by a gentleman here and it is mainly for people whose primary focus is running. It friggin killed me the first couple of weeks, but I am slowly adjusting:
    http://www.furman.edu/sites/first/Documents/16_oct2324.pdf

    Thanks so much for that pdf, and thanks to whoever gave it to you, that was just what I needed. I am training for a run, just a 10km, so have focused on just getting out and running. I knew I needed to do core work to help but wasn't really sure what would be best. This is brilliant! :D
  • JustRobby1
    JustRobby1 Posts: 674 Member
    edited October 2017
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    SLLeask wrote: »
    JustRobby1 wrote: »
    Until relatively recently, all I did as far as exercise was run. This went on for the better part of a year with my miles per week creeping higher and higher eventually going into the 35ish range. Did I get "buff" from this? Nope. However, I did get as lean as I have ever been in my entire life. I have a 32 inch waist for the first time since probably 6th grade, my resting heart read is 49-51, and my cardiovascular system is straight up a force of nature.

    All of this being said, I have recently come to learn the benefits of strength and core work. Running is not going to develop this. While the gym is not really my cup of tea, I only go 2-3 times a week and even in the month or so since I started I have noticed a difference. I suspect my efforts will eventually make me a stronger runner. The program I am now doing was given to me by a gentleman here and it is mainly for people whose primary focus is running. It friggin killed me the first couple of weeks, but I am slowly adjusting:
    http://www.furman.edu/sites/first/Documents/16_oct2324.pdf

    Thanks so much for that pdf, and thanks to whoever gave it to you, that was just what I needed. I am training for a run, just a 10km, so have focused on just getting out and running. I knew I needed to do core work to help but wasn't really sure what would be best. This is brilliant! :D

    Quite welcome, as I was hopeful it might prove useful for someone else in a similar situation. The regimen is not just about getting faster either, but also avoiding the types of injuries that are can happen with annoying regularity to distance runners.

    Best of luck as you train for your 10.
  • Tacklewasher
    Tacklewasher Posts: 7,122 Member
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    JustRobby1 wrote: »
    SLLeask wrote: »
    JustRobby1 wrote: »
    Until relatively recently, all I did as far as exercise was run. This went on for the better part of a year with my miles per week creeping higher and higher eventually going into the 35ish range. Did I get "buff" from this? Nope. However, I did get as lean as I have ever been in my entire life. I have a 32 inch waist for the first time since probably 6th grade, my resting heart read is 49-51, and my cardiovascular system is straight up a force of nature.

    All of this being said, I have recently come to learn the benefits of strength and core work. Running is not going to develop this. While the gym is not really my cup of tea, I only go 2-3 times a week and even in the month or so since I started I have noticed a difference. I suspect my efforts will eventually make me a stronger runner. The program I am now doing was given to me by a gentleman here and it is mainly for people whose primary focus is running. It friggin killed me the first couple of weeks, but I am slowly adjusting:
    http://www.furman.edu/sites/first/Documents/16_oct2324.pdf

    Thanks so much for that pdf, and thanks to whoever gave it to you, that was just what I needed. I am training for a run, just a 10km, so have focused on just getting out and running. I knew I needed to do core work to help but wasn't really sure what would be best. This is brilliant! :D

    Quite welcome, as I was hopeful it might prove useful for someone else in a similar situation. The regimen is not just about getting faster either, but also avoiding the types of injuries that are can happen with annoying regularity to distance runners.

    Best of luck as you train for your 10.

    Ditto. Trying to improve my running (5K @31:30 and 10K at 1:06:30) and know strength training is a big part of it.