Muscle maintenance without exercise?
sardelsa
Posts: 9,812 Member
A question in the main forums got me thinking. Just out of curiosity...can you maintain muscle in maintenance without exercise/resistance training? I would imagine, over enough time...you lose muscle and gain fat, the opposite of a recomp?
For example.. if someone finds they are unable to workout for a few months but wants to maintain their physique and muscle mass (as much as possible).
Or perhaps if someone finds themselves too bulky/muscular (rare I know, but I am sure it happens)..and wants to stay around the same weight... it is possible to lose muscle and gain fat over time.
I wonder how long it takes for the body to start to lose muscle over time, if anyone has any articles or insight!
Thanks!
For example.. if someone finds they are unable to workout for a few months but wants to maintain their physique and muscle mass (as much as possible).
Or perhaps if someone finds themselves too bulky/muscular (rare I know, but I am sure it happens)..and wants to stay around the same weight... it is possible to lose muscle and gain fat over time.
I wonder how long it takes for the body to start to lose muscle over time, if anyone has any articles or insight!
Thanks!
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Replies
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My understanding is losing muscle is not so easy to do...I have always been muscular...then got lazy and added some padding to that muscle. I am now trying to reduce some of that mass, and it is not easy. There are different kinds of muscles and different ways to make them work (so my trainer tells me). So, I have had to change how I work out to actually change that mass.2
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Often wondered this too. I have no idea the answer. I was always under the impression that you 'use it or lose it'. So I assume that I would need to moderately continue to lift weights to maintain. Kinda the way I think about running and losing running fitness. I am probably way off base..
Sticking around to see what others say.1 -
"Immobilization and disuse
Athletes and physically active individuals may be forced to short term immobilization of a limb or even to bed rest due to acute injury or illness. The consequences of gravitational unloading have been extensively investigated in recent years (Ohira et al., 2002; Urso, 2009). One of the most typical adaptations to immobilization is muscle atrophy, accompanied with decreases in functional capacity. Antigravity muscles (e.g., gastrocnemius and soleus) are most susceptible to atrophy following bed rest (Clark, 2009). The loss of muscle strength during a period of 4–6 weeks of unloading has been largely attributed to the loss of contractile proteins (Degens and Always, 2006; Urso, 2009), but it exceeds the loss of muscle mass due to neurological factors (Clark, 2009). Disuse-induced deficits in central activation may account for about 50% of the between – person variability in the loss of knee extensor strength after 3 weeks of bed rest (Kawakami et al., 2001). Deschenes et al. (2002) hypothesized that the loss of strength resulting from a 2-week unilateral lower limb unloading, was due to impaired neural activation of the affected muscle. In that study they immobilized the lower limb of healthy young college students in a light weight orthopedic knee brace at an angle of 70°, with the purpose to eliminate weight bearing activity. After 2 weeks of immobilization, peak isokinetic torque of the knee extensors across a range of velocities was reduced by an average of 17.2% with greater losses in slow than in fast contraction velocities. The reduction in torque was coupled by reduced EMG activity, but the ratio of total torque/EMG was unchanged. Muscle fiber composition remained unchanged in the 2-week unloading period." Find the whole paper here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355468/5 -
Google "muscle atrophy". Perhaps even "NASA muscle atrophy". Astro- and Cosmo-nauts are the extreme example of losing muscle in zero gravity, but on Earth we lose muscle if we don't use it, especially if we don't eat enough protein. How fast do we lose 1%? A male eating all the protein he needs and lifts and exercises perfectly is going to lose 1% of his body muscle each year after he's 50. It's quicker than you think.4
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JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Google "muscle atrophy". Perhaps even "NASA muscle atrophy". Astro- and Cosmo-nauts are the extreme example of losing muscle in zero gravity, but on Earth we lose muscle if we don't use it, especially if we don't eat enough protein. How fast do we lose 1%? A male eating all the protein he needs and lifts and exercises perfectly is going to lose 1% of his body muscle each year after he's 50. It's quicker than you think.
I am approaching 50 (less than a year). I am kinda sad now to learn of this 'gradual decrease in the ability to maintain skeletal muscle function and mass' known as sarcopenia.0 -
Be of good cheer @RoxieDawn, the anti-aging folks are making real progress at reversing each of the pathologies of senility. Subscribe to John Mauldin's free newsletter for his this week report on the latest conference of the Buck Institute.3
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There is a lady on here who is documenting her atrophy due to not being able to lift (after an operation) and it might answer part of your question OP. She is doing cardio only...scroll through her videos to the pertinent ones...
https://www.youtube.com/user/robertasaum/videos
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I always used to be someone who gained muscle mass relatively quickly but also seemed to lose it quickly compared to my peers. When I don't train I fairly quickly look like someone who doesn't train.
Conversely I worked with someone who got in fantastic shape and after 3 years of not training at all still looked in good shape and although he lost definition he lost very little size.
But there's a world of difference between simply not training but still being active (slow decline) and not being able to use certain muscles at all. When I was 31 an idiot car driver used my knee to disassemble the front of his car and I was completely non-weight bearing on one leg for best part of 3 months. Lost 5" of quad circumference.
It's a long time ago but I think recall the rehab Physio saying muscle mass is being lost from as little as two weeks of inactivity.
First thing noticed was CNS switching off. During a period of complete bed rest I couldn't even tense my quads when asked. I thought I was sending the right signals they weren't getting to my leg or my leg muscles weren't responding.
So the first thing to go is strength and then followed by muscle mass. The reverse of when you are returning to training when you can rapidly gain/regain strength without adding mass.
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Very interesting topic and one I was just thinking about. I recently had a cervical disk replaced and 2 weeks ago got cleared for exercise other than walking and physical therapy. And then 10 days ago some idiot ran a red light and t-boned my car (I think the universe hates me), so I'm back to no exercise other than walking and can't even go back to PT for two weeks. I've been really concerned about losing any progress I made and it sounds like it happens pretty fast (not that I have a ton of muscle but I'd kind of like to keep what little I do have!).1
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All you have to do is look at older people who do not use their muscles to know that some will be lost if you don't use them. They don't go completely away but strength and some mass will be lost.0
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Very interesting topic and one I was just thinking about. I recently had a cervical disk replaced and 2 weeks ago got cleared for exercise other than walking and physical therapy. And then 10 days ago some idiot ran a red light and t-boned my car (I think the universe hates me), so I'm back to no exercise other than walking and can't even go back to PT for two weeks. I've been really concerned about losing any progress I made and it sounds like it happens pretty fast (not that I have a ton of muscle but I'd kind of like to keep what little I do have!).
I don't have any advice for you, but dang. I'm sorry for your misfortune and hope things rapidly improve for you!4 -
Very interesting topic and one I was just thinking about. I recently had a cervical disk replaced and 2 weeks ago got cleared for exercise other than walking and physical therapy. And then 10 days ago some idiot ran a red light and t-boned my car (I think the universe hates me), so I'm back to no exercise other than walking and can't even go back to PT for two weeks. I've been really concerned about losing any progress I made and it sounds like it happens pretty fast (not that I have a ton of muscle but I'd kind of like to keep what little I do have!).
I don't have any advice for you, but dang. I'm sorry for your misfortune and hope things rapidly improve for you!
Thank you! Nothing to do but keep pushing forward - I figure I'm due for some good luck soon. Might be a good time to play the lottery!
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »All you have to do is look at older people who do not use their muscles to know that some will be lost if you don't use them. They don't go completely away but strength and some mass will be lost.
Oh I know it will happen over time, just curious if it is weeks, months..if the person is maintaining.
When I was pregnant with my second my nausea was so bad in the first tri that I had to stop lifting for a few months. I probably lost some muscle but it wasn't too bad.. maybe since I wasn't in a catabolic state.. or was I.. pregnancy is a whole different discussion I'm sure.
Thanks all for your input!1 -
Lyle McDonald discusses the topic of muscle retention/maintenance in many different articles on his site, but a lot of them have to do with preserving muscle/LBM in the face of a deficit. This one talks about maintenance in the transition phase between cutting and bulking (which is more or less maintenance): https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/transition-phase-between-dieting-gaining.html/
He says (there and elsewhere) that you can reduce volume and frequency by about 2/3 while maintaining intensity (weight on the bar) and successfully maintain what you have.4 -
I'm no expert in this but I'll give my opinion/impression.
I'd assume that yes, if you exercise hard and build up a good amount of muscle and then you stop exercising that overtime you will indeed lose that muscle. I don't think it "turns to fat" unless you are in caloric excess anyways, I think it probably just degrades and the body doesn't bother to rebuild it. I get the sense that this takes a long time though.
I've also found, again through personal experience so take this as an anecdote, that it "seems" that if I work really hard to build up a certain amount of muscle and then I get lazy and 4 years later I've lost it all that if I start up again with a strict exercise routine that I rebuild that muscle much quicker and easier than the first time but only up to the point that I reached before and then it becomes very slow again. Almost as if my body "remembers" how much muscle I once had.
That could be "woo". Not sure what is actually going on scientificially speaking, just how it "seemed" from an uninformed perspective.3 -
@Aaron_K123
Would agree with your impression.
Following my injury when I lost 5" of quad muscle (in a huge calorie surplus) I regained 3" very quickly purely from learning to walk again and then walking stairs (while in a calorie deficit).
Meanwhile my traps did the obverse, growing significantly while on crutches (I got called "Coke bottle shoulders" when I returned to work!) and then returning to normal when I was off crutches.
I've also had a few periods of heavy training and then life gets in the way and I lose condition. I can always progress bench press very quickly back to previous levels (c. 100kg) along with muscle growth without too much difficulty and then my progress slows to a snail's pace.
@sardelsa
My experience is that muscle use/stimulation is far and away more important than being in a calorie surplus/deficit/maintenance.0 -
Hmm unless injury there's no excuse to be completely inactive for months. I was out of the gym for 2 months, all i did was jump rope, pull ups/chins & a variation of press ups 3-4 times a week. I returned to the gym pretty much the same just less conditioned. Probably 2-3 lbs of muscle mass loss if that.0
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I had foot surgery about 10 yrs ago. Right foot was in a cast and plastic boot for about 4 months before ai could walk on it again.
Right calf was 1"smaller in diameter than left calf after cast/boot were removed and remains the same now despite heavy lifting doing DLs and SQTs (but no isolated calf raises).
Loss of strength is lost even quicker. Took a month off from all lifting and could only lift about 75% of 1RM for DL and SQT after resuming lifts Working my way back up.
Haven't done any BPs or OHPs yet because of elbow tendonitis but expect the same problem when I resume those lifts as well.
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Based solely on my experience, I was pretty muscular and just stopped lifting and exercising for 2-3 years. I retained most of my muscle for quite a while, it was only after a while my weight crept up with fat gain. Once I lost weight and started strength training again, I was pretty much back to very near my previous size pretty quickly.0
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Here is an interesting article on this as I was researching last night what happens when you stop going to the gym for a week.
https://www.sciencealert.com/what-happens-when-you-stop-exercising0 -
Based solely on my experience, I was pretty muscular and just stopped lifting and exercising for 2-3 years. I retained most of my muscle for quite a while, it was only after a while my weight crept up with fat gain. Once I lost weight and started strength training again, I was pretty much back to very near my previous size pretty quickly.Based solely on my experience, I was pretty muscular and just stopped lifting and exercising for 2-3 years. I retained most of my muscle for quite a while, it was only after a while my weight crept up with fat gain. Once I lost weight and started strength training again, I was pretty much back to very near my previous size pretty quickly.
Yeah this happened to me. I was super lean and peak fitness then stopped totally for a few years and gained a lot of fat whilst on an anti depressant. Once I got back to the gym and my old style of eating I quite quickly returned to being very lean and having muscle definition.0 -
The reason why you may be saying lose muscle and gain fat - is because many that stopped exercising didn't adjust calorie intake correctly, and that can be difficult even if you had great records while working out.
So eating in excess for a while probably helped the retain muscle, though it likely shrunk, while the fat went on.
The opposite I've seen happen too, knowing intake must be adjusted, but now going too low and losing some weight and some muscle just not being built back up again.
Saw one study that said about 75g of protein from muscle a day is in normal breakdown process, to be rebuilt if protein intake needs are met of course.
I've also seen people that indeed gained weight after not working out, and kept a decent amount of strength and from appearances muscle size - when called upon to use it.
But they were still active in general. Perhaps with decent strength still able/willing to do things that required strength.
Compared to the injured/sick/losing weight side of the story and non-use.2 -
I'm 51 and I can still keep and even gain a little muscle if my macros are on point and I lift heavy 5 times a week. The progress is less and slower every year.
In the case of an injury or a vacation keeping me out of the gym for even just a week the muscle loss is very obvious in the mirror and on the scale... and the strength loss is striking when I get back into the gym.
On the up side muscle memory is a real phenomenon. You can get muscle BACK much quicker than you can grow it in the first place. (on the down side, the injury rate is higher with age... I have had 3 bouts of nasty tendonitis (in 3 different places) in the last 18 months or so.)0 -
I am 50....have not been in the gym for three months. No bed rest or anything like that. But no training at all (still some NEAT....still pretty active). Muscle definition has indeed changed. Nutrition - been playing with things so protein intake has not been where it would have been were I not playing with differrnt ideas.
Not interested in hearing about age-related "things" - to be honest. Just seem like a bunch of excuses. And not being aggressive with that.......just how I really feel. I fight that stuff with "Really? Look at me!" (not being egotistical with that).
Anyway, love this question. Will document my "recovery" (go back in the gym tomorrow).
But, would say that "use it or loose it" does apply!!!!0 -
A question in the main forums got me thinking. Just out of curiosity...can you maintain muscle in maintenance without exercise/resistance training? I would imagine, over enough time...you lose muscle and gain fat, the opposite of a recomp?
For example.. if someone finds they are unable to workout for a few months but wants to maintain their physique and muscle mass (as much as possible).
Or perhaps if someone finds themselves too bulky/muscular (rare I know, but I am sure it happens)..and wants to stay around the same weight... it is possible to lose muscle and gain fat over time.
I wonder how long it takes for the body to start to lose muscle over time, if anyone has any articles or insight!
Thanks!
So concerned about this right now! Great thread! I am getting surgery on 11/15 and will have 3-6 weeks of no leg work outs (although you bet I'm gonna end up finding a way to do extensions or something along those lines, I can't do 3-6 weeks of back/arms/abs and mild bike riding LOL). I'm so concerned that I'm just going to turn into fat and mush and not hold an ounce of all the muscle I've spent years working towards.
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peaceout_aly wrote: »A question in the main forums got me thinking. Just out of curiosity...can you maintain muscle in maintenance without exercise/resistance training? I would imagine, over enough time...you lose muscle and gain fat, the opposite of a recomp?
For example.. if someone finds they are unable to workout for a few months but wants to maintain their physique and muscle mass (as much as possible).
Or perhaps if someone finds themselves too bulky/muscular (rare I know, but I am sure it happens)..and wants to stay around the same weight... it is possible to lose muscle and gain fat over time.
I wonder how long it takes for the body to start to lose muscle over time, if anyone has any articles or insight!
Thanks!
So concerned about this right now! Great thread! I am getting surgery on 11/15 and will have 3-6 weeks of no leg work outs (although you bet I'm gonna end up finding a way to do extensions or something along those lines, I can't do 3-6 weeks of back/arms/abs and mild bike riding LOL). I'm so concerned that I'm just going to turn into fat and mush and not hold an ounce of all the muscle I've spent years working towards.
Don't eat in a diet during recovery.
First you don't know how much extra energy your body needs for repair and you'll likely get a slight deficit anyway.
Second diet with no resistance workouts will just be asking for muscle not being built back up and lost away.
3-6 weeks really not that bad if not bed-ridden - merely getting around will use a lot of body muscles, so stay active as you can.
And ask your PT about leg curls/extension - if you can focus your mind clearly on just using quads/hamstrings and not engaging muscles attached to something you shouldn't be moving - not bad. But one distracted movement in that case could be really bad - so be sure you have that ability first.
Practice now.1 -
i have limited experience and what i have is just anecdotal, but fwiw the last time i freaked out about hurting a knee my gp was pretty hipped on me continuing to move any way that i could until it settled down. she told me people start to lose muscle 'within a week' of complete inactivity. she may have been thinking of a specific population since she and i are both in our early 50's.
also anecdotally, it does seem to come back pretty quick. that's providing any underlying/causative issues have been fully resolved though. otherwise i find that whatever set me off just lies there and lurks waiting for me to get back to the requisite weight/volume to set it back off.0
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