Garmin's more advanced training data/features
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jjpptt2
Posts: 5,650 Member
Using/understanding basic garmin data (speed, distance, HR, cadence) is pretty straight forward. But is there any real value to tweaking your training/workouts based on some of Garmin's more advanced data features like training load, VO2 max, and recovery. What about aerobic vs anaerobic effect?
I wouldn't say I'm an average weekend warrior, because I'm probably a little beyond that, and I certainly want/expect to be more than that... but I'm not racing/competing right now either. My goals are ultimately based on improvement and enjoyment.
I'll start by saying I'm prone to skepticism when it comes to some of the more advanced data. Things like speed and distance and elevation are what they are... but the rest of it feels wildly approximated/assumed, based a little bit on my stats/performance and largely on a bunch of assumptions and averages.
So is it worth paying attention to any of those advanced metrics? Is there value/meaning to any of them, and if so, what/how? FWIW, I have a garmin 935 that is my main tracker.
TIA.
I wouldn't say I'm an average weekend warrior, because I'm probably a little beyond that, and I certainly want/expect to be more than that... but I'm not racing/competing right now either. My goals are ultimately based on improvement and enjoyment.
I'll start by saying I'm prone to skepticism when it comes to some of the more advanced data. Things like speed and distance and elevation are what they are... but the rest of it feels wildly approximated/assumed, based a little bit on my stats/performance and largely on a bunch of assumptions and averages.
So is it worth paying attention to any of those advanced metrics? Is there value/meaning to any of them, and if so, what/how? FWIW, I have a garmin 935 that is my main tracker.
TIA.
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The training status widget has said "peaking" right before I got most of my PRs this year.0
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NorthCascades wrote: »The training status widget has said "peaking" right before I got most of my PRs this year.
I haven't paid attention to that widget very consistently, but every time I do look it says "No Status". Maybe I should dig around and see if I can figure out what that widget is based on, and what it means.
ETA -
After a bit of reading, it looks like I don't run often enough, and I don't ride with a power meter, so getting a consistent training status will be iffy for me.0 -
Do you wear a chest strap when you exercise?0
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No, just the wrist-based HR from the 935.0
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How well does it work for you? Do the numbers look realistic?0
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I have a Fenix5S. I wear a chest strap HRM. The training status thing measures load and then looks at whether your calculated VO2max is going up/down/steady. My training status has been more of a weather report than anything else. If it’s hot/humid, my training status is unproductive, if it’s cooler/drier, it’s productive/peaking (depending on how much I’m doing). I think it will be more beneficial for me when the weather is more consistent. I will also note that I’ve never done a FTP test on the bike, but I have Garmin-produced FTP values (that it produced all on its own from indoor, spinning class type biking sessions - with just the cadence sensor and no speed/powermeter info...).
I do use another HRV measurement app as a training guide and have found that to be extremely useful (and never wrong) in terms of knowing where my body is for recovery/ready to work (vs just blindly following what’s on a training plan).
I think all data has the potential to be useful. But you need to understand where it’s coming from and what it means. The training status thing is intended to help keep you from overtraining, help manage load, peak VO2max, etc going into events. If you’re already doing those things, then you’re not missing much except a pretty colored chart and a semi-judgmental watch.0 -
The HR readings look pretty reasonable given my past experience with Garmin chest straps (min/max/average HR data over the duration of a workout), but overall calorie burns (the estimate/calculations) seem a bit higher than expected. Not outrageously so, just noticeably so.0
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The Garmin features are fun but they won't really teach you too much. Once you spend a bit of time with them, you'll figure out what makes them change on any given day and most of it is pretty common sense. That said, it is pretty neat when you can feel that a workout was good or bad and see a status change on your watch.
I don't really change my training to match Garmin's recommendations, instead I tend to use Garmin's information as validation that what I am doing is working/not working.
For example, having one or two rest days 5-6 days ahead of an event and then following those rest days up with a few easy workouts should pretty reliably get you to 'peaking' by the event day. Lo and behold, this is probably the same tapering strategy that you would have done anyway regardless of what Garmin told you. By the same token, aerobic vs. anaerobic is pretty straightforward and I don't think most of us need a watch to tell us what kind of workout we just did.
I think the Garmin stats might be helpful for people who have zero idea what an appropriate training schedule looks like (for example, the 20 year old kid who thinks it's OK to go hard all of the time) but if you're already somewhat knowledgeable about how to design a training program, then the Garmin data isn't quite as helpful.2 -
I'll echo @DX2JX2 and say that training a few days always makes my watch say peaking and is the only thing that has ever got it to say that. I think how many days depends on your training load.
I'm paying attention to the training load numbers, but much less to the amount it thinks is optional for me. I use TSS to manage my cycling, but as I add swimming and get ready for ski season, I need a non power way to stay on top of this. I'm hoping the training load feature can provide one. I half go by feel on this, but sometimes I'm way off.0 -
Probably not what you were asking but stride length is valuable info for Nordic skiing technique. I wish I had it available when I leaned to ski again as an adult.
I wish I had it when I bought my skis, it would have saved me a lot of time and effort choosing which ones. And I could have put that into enjoying them instead of doing A/B testing by feel.0 -
Hmmm. Feel like I've been missing the boat re: Garmin data since I track my training load in Training Peaks. Now I feel like I should dig around in the Connect app to see how it compares to TP.0
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I guess that's part of my issue/question/problem - I'm not sure what does or doesn't constitute effective training. Or more accurately, I don't know if/when I'm doing more harm than good.
Back when I was racing, I would focus my training around speed for short course events, and endurance for long-course races. Now, I don't have anything that specific to guide me, so I lack any real focus. I just want to get better at the things I enjoy doing - biking (road and mountain) and running (trail and road, but mostly trail). In most cases, I'm sure more time on the bike or more miles on my shoes is probably effective enough, but I do tend to fall into certain comfort zones, both in terms of effort (RPE) and duration.
Am I just rambling now? It feels like it, so I'll stop, wait for my morning caffeine to kick in, then come back to this thread.0 -
Hmmm. Feel like I've been missing the boat re: Garmin data since I track my training load in Training Peaks. Now I feel like I should dig around in the Connect app to see how it compares to TP.
I only have the basic TP account, so most of the more meaningful metrics aren't available to me.0 -
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Just a note that the bulk of the more advanced metrics depend on VO2Max calculations. And vo2max does not get calculated by Garmin for trail running activities and I’d imagine not for mountain biking either for the same reason (variability of terrain). So if the bulk of your activities are not road running/biking, the advanced metrics may not even be calculated often enough to be of value to you (I think you mentioned it said no data available?) as they are largely dependent on whatever your VO2max was calculated as that day in comparison to what it was the last time.
You also may need to use a chest strap to get the info. I know Garmin uses the HRV data in figuring your VO2max and that usually only comes from a chest strap. But since they introduced the all day stress measurement which is using HRV from the wrist HRM, the chest strap may not be required to get a VO2max anymore. I don’t know for sure.0 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »Just a note that the bulk of the more advanced metrics depend on VO2Max calculations. And vo2max does not get calculated by Garmin for trail running activities and I’d imagine not for mountain biking either for the same reason (variability of terrain). So if the bulk of your activities are not road running/biking, the advanced metrics may not even be calculated often enough to be of value to you (I think you mentioned it said no data available?) as they are largely dependent on whatever your VO2max was calculated as that day in comparison to what it was the last time.
You also may need to use a chest strap to get the info. I know Garmin uses the HRV data in figuring your VO2max and that usually only comes from a chest strap. But since they introduced the all day stress measurement which is using HRV from the wrist HRM, the chest strap may not be required to get a VO2max anymore. I don’t know for sure.
That explains a lot. Thanks.0 -
You'll get a VO2max number for any bike with a power meter. If you have power data the variability of the terrain doesn't matter.
But almost no one uses a power meter on an MTB.1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »You'll get a VO2max number for any bike with a power meter. If you have power data the variability of the terrain doesn't matter.
But almost no one uses a power meter on an MTB.
Makes sense.
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NorthCascades wrote: »
Will play around with it this weekend.1 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »Just a note that the bulk of the more advanced metrics depend on VO2Max calculations. And vo2max does not get calculated by Garmin for trail running activities and I’d imagine not for mountain biking either for the same reason (variability of terrain). So if the bulk of your activities are not road running/biking, the advanced metrics may not even be calculated often enough to be of value to you (I think you mentioned it said no data available?) as they are largely dependent on whatever your VO2max was calculated as that day in comparison to what it was the last time.
You also may need to use a chest strap to get the info. I know Garmin uses the HRV data in figuring your VO2max and that usually only comes from a chest strap. But since they introduced the all day stress measurement which is using HRV from the wrist HRM, the chest strap may not be required to get a VO2max anymore. I don’t know for sure.
Chest strap isn't needed for VO2max, but is required for LTHR and HRV stress (not the all-day stress measurement).2 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »Just a note that the bulk of the more advanced metrics depend on VO2Max calculations. And vo2max does not get calculated by Garmin for trail running activities and I’d imagine not for mountain biking either for the same reason (variability of terrain). So if the bulk of your activities are not road running/biking, the advanced metrics may not even be calculated often enough to be of value to you (I think you mentioned it said no data available?) as they are largely dependent on whatever your VO2max was calculated as that day in comparison to what it was the last time.
You also may need to use a chest strap to get the info. I know Garmin uses the HRV data in figuring your VO2max and that usually only comes from a chest strap. But since they introduced the all day stress measurement which is using HRV from the wrist HRM, the chest strap may not be required to get a VO2max anymore. I don’t know for sure.
Chest strap isn't needed for VO2max, but is required for LTHR and HRV stress (not the all-day stress measurement).
No kidding. Alright then. I guess that’s not affecting OP’s data (or lack thereof) or ability to collect future data.0 -
Duck_Puddle wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »Just a note that the bulk of the more advanced metrics depend on VO2Max calculations. And vo2max does not get calculated by Garmin for trail running activities and I’d imagine not for mountain biking either for the same reason (variability of terrain). So if the bulk of your activities are not road running/biking, the advanced metrics may not even be calculated often enough to be of value to you (I think you mentioned it said no data available?) as they are largely dependent on whatever your VO2max was calculated as that day in comparison to what it was the last time.
You also may need to use a chest strap to get the info. I know Garmin uses the HRV data in figuring your VO2max and that usually only comes from a chest strap. But since they introduced the all day stress measurement which is using HRV from the wrist HRM, the chest strap may not be required to get a VO2max anymore. I don’t know for sure.
Chest strap isn't needed for VO2max, but is required for LTHR and HRV stress (not the all-day stress measurement).
No kidding. Alright then. I guess that’s not affecting OP’s data (or lack thereof) or ability to collect future data.
But the road vs trail thing might. Since the weather has cooled, I haven't had my road bike out, but have done a bunch of stationary bike work, and a number of mountain bike rides. I've also done a few trail runs, but no road runs and my data seems to have dried up in that time.
Correlation or causation, i'm not sure... but if there's smoke, there's usually fire.1 -
I think a chest strap is required for auto FTP, too. I thought someone on their documentation team was drunk when I first read that, but it's true, and in theory is a better way to do it than what Golden Cheetah does. I'm practice, half the time this feature comes on it's after I've set a new 20 minute MMP record and it's just 95% of that.0
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The trail runs definitely won’t give you the training status info (or vo2max). I know I also don’t get a vo2max for treadmill or stationary bike activities either.0
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For what it's worth I've done one trail run this year, I spent a week in a wilderness with no bikes and it was too cold to swim. I got a VO2max estimate from it, a few points below normal. I was a lot slower on the trail so I thought it made sense.0
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I started fooling around with Garmin Connect on my phone, looking at VO2 max for running and cycling. While Connect tells me at a VO2 max of 57 I fall in the "superior" range for running and at a cycling VO2max of 48 I fall in the "good" range, I'm having trouble finding the screens/views that give me much more than that. For example, I get no data under Lactate Threshold. Wonder if that's because I need to set up an LT test in Garmin? Right now, my coach derives threshold from my workouts and sets my zones in TP. Is there a similar feature in Connect? Think I'll have to look at this on my home PC to get a little deeper into the app.0
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I started fooling around with Garmin Connect on my phone, looking at VO2 max for running and cycling. While Connect tells me at a VO2 max of 57 I fall in the "superior" range for running and at a cycling VO2max of 48 I fall in the "good" range, I'm having trouble finding the screens/views that give me much more than that. For example, I get no data under Lactate Threshold. Wonder if that's because I need to set up an LT test in Garmin? Right now, my coach derives threshold from my workouts and sets my zones in TP. Is there a similar feature in Connect? Think I'll have to look at this on my home PC to get a little deeper into the app.
I get LT values when running with a HRM strap (but not with OHR), haven't used Garmin's LT test. Once it determines an LT value, it asks if you want your heart rate zones set according to LT or leave them as is (default is based off MHR).0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »For what it's worth I've done one trail run this year, I spent a week in a wilderness with no bikes and it was too cold to swim. I got a VO2max estimate from it, a few points below normal. I was a lot slower on the trail so I thought it made sense.
I have a VO2max estimate, but it doesn't seem to be using data from the last few week (basically, since my road miles stopped). I also have no training status for the last few weeks.
Seems that, once again, Garmin is just a bit too fussy/specific for me. But this time, that's ok... because I bought the 935 knowing that I could wear it as an every day watch in addition to using it as a training tool. So I'm still getting my money's worth. But I'm still a little annoyed.0 -
I have a chest strap HRM for my 920.
Ok, I'm showing my ignorance here, since I get all data synced to TP and look at it there, only going back to the Connect app occasionally. So I assume it "asks" for my HR zone setting preferences in the Connect app after a session that captures LT?0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »For what it's worth I've done one trail run this year, I spent a week in a wilderness with no bikes and it was too cold to swim. I got a VO2max estimate from it, a few points below normal. I was a lot slower on the trail so I thought it made sense.
I have a VO2max estimate, but it doesn't seem to be using data from the last few week (basically, since my road miles stopped). I also have no training status for the last few weeks.
Seems that, once again, Garmin is just a bit too fussy/specific for me. But this time, that's ok... because I bought the 935 knowing that I could wear it as an every day watch in addition to using it as a training tool. So I'm still getting my money's worth. But I'm still a little annoyed.
From what I understand (may have come from DCR's review and/or the comments section), Garmin won't calculate a VO2max estimate from trail running. So if you're specifying your runs as trail runs, that would explain the lack of data.
[ETA:] Not sure how that relates to/affects Training Status.0
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