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Should the USDA's 'MyPlate' guidelines remain as is, be modified or be scrapped altogether?
PrimalForLife
Posts: 28 Member
in Debate Club
The 'MyPlate' guidelines don't *seem* to be helping Americans solve the growing obesity problem - should the guidelines remain as is, be modified, or be scrapped altogether? Why?
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Replies
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I think they're fine for the most part...people don't follow them...you could change the guidelines however you like, but if people don't follow them, it doesn't matter.
I don't think obesity has anything to do with my plate guidelines. I don't see double decker bacon cheeseburgers and extra large fries and 32 ounce big gulps or a bunch of high calorie, low nutrient ultra processed foods on my plate...14 -
I think nutritional guidelines should be based on how people like to eat, not how we "should" eat. It should be balanced more healthily - not restrict fat. Differentiate better between fruit and vegetables, not count juice and dried fruit. Not get hung up in details that are bound to be misinterpreted. It could be rearranged to look more like real meals, and should aim to convey the overall message of variety, balance, home cooked and family meals. I don't know if the current model is viable even with modifications. Brazil's nutritional guidelines are almost perfect and should be the gold standard.4
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I think they're fine for the most part...people don't follow them...you could change the guidelines however you like, but if people don't follow them, it doesn't matter.
I don't think obesity has anything to do with my plate guidelines. I don't see double decker bacon cheeseburgers and extra large fries and 32 ounce big gulps or a bunch of high calorie, low nutrient ultra processed foods on my plate...
I agree 'if people don't follow them, (the guidelines) don't matter'. I thought the guidelines were introduced with 'Let'sMove' to try to combat childhood obesity, no?0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I think nutritional guidelines should be based on how people like to eat, not how we "should" eat. It should be balanced more healthily - not restrict fat. Differentiate better between fruit and vegetables, not count juice and dried fruit. Not get hung up in details that are bound to be misinterpreted. It could be rearranged to look more like real meals, and should aim to convey the overall message of variety, balance, home cooked and family meals. I don't know if the current model is viable even with modifications. Brazil's nutritional guidelines are almost perfect and should be the gold standard.
I found these (http://www.fao.org/nutrition/education/food-based-dietary-guidelines/regions/countries/brazil/en/) - is that what you are referring to?0 -
Yes, that's the one.PrimalForLife wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I think nutritional guidelines should be based on how people like to eat, not how we "should" eat. It should be balanced more healthily - not restrict fat. Differentiate better between fruit and vegetables, not count juice and dried fruit. Not get hung up in details that are bound to be misinterpreted. It could be rearranged to look more like real meals, and should aim to convey the overall message of variety, balance, home cooked and family meals. I don't know if the current model is viable even with modifications. Brazil's nutritional guidelines are almost perfect and should be the gold standard.
I found these (http://www.fao.org/nutrition/education/food-based-dietary-guidelines/regions/countries/brazil/en/) - is that what you are referring to?0 -
I think they are fine and agree that most people don't follow them. The myplate website is pretty good IMO and I think it's a good read for people who are entirely clueless about how to eat.4
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I don't think any guidelines are going to change the fact that most people don't follow guidelines. I also think they aren't perfect -- even the Harvard Nutrition ones I prefer (https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/) can be criticized in one way or another. However, I think given that they are trying to simplify things and aimed at kids, I think they are pretty good.
Also, since this is a common topic at MFP, I rather like this, from the website: http://www.eatright.org/resource/food/nutrition/nutrition-facts-and-food-labels/avoiding-processed-foods1 -
Anyway, more specifically, here are examples of the advice from MyPlate, which is reasonable and simple, IMO:
"There is more than one way to eat healthfully and everyone has their own eating style. Make healthier choices that reflect your preferences, culture, traditions, and budget. Choose fruits, vegetables, grains, dairy, and protein foods to get the most nutrition and meet your personal calorie needs. Aim for a variety of foods and beverages from each food group and limit saturated fat, sodium, and added sugars."
"What and how much you eat and drink, along with regular physical activity, can help you manage your weight and lower your risk of disease."
"Create an eating style that can improve your health now and in the future by making small changes over time. Consider changes that reflect your personal preferences, culture and traditions. Think of each change as a “win” as you build positive habits and find solutions that reflect your healthy eating style. Each change is a MyWin that can help you build your healthy eating style. Use the tips and links below to find little victories that work for you."
"MAKE HALF YOUR PLATE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES" (their all caps, not mine)
"Vary your veggies to include green, red, and orange choices.
Add fresh, frozen, or canned vegetables to salads, side dishes, and recipes."
"Choose whole-grain foods more often than refined grains. Make at least half the amount of grains you eat each day whole grains.
Find high fiber, whole-grain foods by reading the Nutrition Facts label and ingredients list."
"Mix up your protein foods to include seafood, beans, nuts, seeds, soy, eggs, lean meats, and poultry.
Select seafood twice a week, including fish and shellfish.
Add beans or peas, unsalted nuts and seeds, and soy in main dishes and snacks."
"Read the Nutrition Facts labels to find products with less saturated fat and sodium.
Use the ingredient list to find choices with less added sugars.
Cut back on sugary beverages such as fruit drinks and soda."2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Anyway, more specifically, here are examples of the advice from MyPlate, which is reasonable and simple, IMO:
"There is more than one way to eat healthfully and everyone has their own eating style. Make healthier choices that reflect your preferences, culture, traditions, and budget. Choose fruits, vegetables, grains, dairy, and protein foods to get the most nutrition and meet your personal calorie needs. Aim for a variety of foods and beverages from each food group and limit saturated fat, sodium, and added sugars."
"What and how much you eat and drink, along with regular physical activity, can help you manage your weight and lower your risk of disease."
"Create an eating style that can improve your health now and in the future by making small changes over time. Consider changes that reflect your personal preferences, culture and traditions. Think of each change as a “win” as you build positive habits and find solutions that reflect your healthy eating style. Each change is a MyWin that can help you build your healthy eating style. Use the tips and links below to find little victories that work for you."
"MAKE HALF YOUR PLATE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES" (their all caps, not mine)
"Vary your veggies to include green, red, and orange choices.
Add fresh, frozen, or canned vegetables to salads, side dishes, and recipes."
"Choose whole-grain foods more often than refined grains. Make at least half the amount of grains you eat each day whole grains.
Find high fiber, whole-grain foods by reading the Nutrition Facts label and ingredients list."
"Mix up your protein foods to include seafood, beans, nuts, seeds, soy, eggs, lean meats, and poultry.
Select seafood twice a week, including fish and shellfish.
Add beans or peas, unsalted nuts and seeds, and soy in main dishes and snacks."
"Read the Nutrition Facts labels to find products with less saturated fat and sodium.
Use the ingredient list to find choices with less added sugars.
Cut back on sugary beverages such as fruit drinks and soda."
I'm down with all of this.
The problem, I agree isn't the guidelines even if they're flawed. It's that people don't follow them. It's that people don't move as much as they used to. It's that people eat too much even if they are following the guidelines (this was true for me, for example).
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I don't think I'd even go so far as to say they are "flawed"...more that they are very generalized, which they would have to be. They do address that on their site as @lemurcat12 posted.2
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I don't think I'd even go so far as to say they are "flawed"...more that they are very generalized, which they would have to be. They do address that on their site as @lemurcat12 posted.
That's a much better way of phrasing it. I like that. "Generalized".2 -
PrimalForLife wrote: »The 'MyPlate' guidelines don't *seem* to be helping Americans solve the growing obesity problem - should the guidelines remain as is, be modified, or be scrapped altogether? Why?
Do the guidelines mention anything about CICO? Because they should. If they are aiming to help people with obesity, it’s all about CICO.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I don't think I'd even go so far as to say they are "flawed"...more that they are very generalized, which they would have to be. They do address that on their site as @lemurcat12 posted.
That's a much better way of phrasing it. I like that. "Generalized".
Yep, they have to do something that is reasonable for 80-90% of the population, and I think they succeeded at that.
As others have said, following them is a whole other story.2 -
They are not based on good science. Scrap'em.10
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monkeefan1974 wrote: »PrimalForLife wrote: »The 'MyPlate' guidelines don't *seem* to be helping Americans solve the growing obesity problem - should the guidelines remain as is, be modified, or be scrapped altogether? Why?
Do the guidelines mention anything about CICO? Because they should. If they are aiming to help people with obesity, it’s all about CICO.
They don't specifically mention CICO, they just focus on portion control and eating more fruits/veggies (which in general are lower calorie then most other foods). I feel this is an indirect way to mention CICO. Some of the more detailed dietary guidelines do mention it.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
More along the lines of they need to prove their guidelines are based on more than tradition. Why is the departmen of agriculture telling people what to eat? That seems like a bit of a conflict of interest.
I would assume nutritional guidelines would be based on what would be best for the people's health. Proof that those foods will make you the healthiest that a food could. I don't see it for all of their recommendations.
Much of the recommendations seem fine. Lots of colourful veggies - great. Whole fruits - good. Variety of protein foods - good but I would add that you need a moderate amount and include examples, and I don't think nuts and seeds are great protein sources. Limit added sugar to under 10% a day - okay but that is still over 10 teaspoons of sugar (on top of what is in whole foods) a day. That is a fair bit.
I dislike that they say to limit saturate fat to below 10% since there is not good science to support it. The same goes for limiting sodium to under 2300 mg a day - good science says that is too low for most people. I see no science that would explain why fat free or low fat dairy is more nutritious than full fat dairy. If worried about the calories why not state that less should be consumed than no fat? Seems a simple fix. I also think dairy should be written as something thatn can be consumed and not something that should be consumed. We do not need cow milk - it can be part of a healthy diet but many people do better without it.
I dislike that they say grains should be eaten. Why? they are not needed for good health and I doubt they contribute much if people are eating meats, veggies, and fruits. I think grains can be an option for many who are healthy but for the metabolicaly unhealthy, they should probably be limited or avoided until they are metabolically healthy.
I did not find any discussion on CICO either. Is it even in there?
Its not all bad but enough of it is pointless that they should drop a sizeable chunk of it or start over.... Or perhaps the government, and dept. of agriculture, should just back out of giving dietary advice.13 -
monkeefan1974 wrote: »PrimalForLife wrote: »The 'MyPlate' guidelines don't *seem* to be helping Americans solve the growing obesity problem - should the guidelines remain as is, be modified, or be scrapped altogether? Why?
Do the guidelines mention anything about CICO? Because they should. If they are aiming to help people with obesity, it’s all about CICO.
They don't specifically mention CICO, they just focus on portion control and eating more fruits/veggies (which in general are lower calorie then most other foods). I feel this is an indirect way to mention CICO. Some of the more detailed dietary guidelines do mention it.
Simply based on how bad the obesity epidemic is and my own observations, here lies a big part of the problem... the majority of people are NOT good at estimating calories in foods/portions or estimating calories burned in exercise. This is why the public needs to be better informed about CICO in a very direct manner and it should be made a priority.
Just telling people to “control portions” means nothing, just telling people to “moderately exercise” means nothing.
As we calorie counters on mfp know, even small miscalculations of calories add up over time and affect our weight.
It’s a shame how we just keep trying to cover up the elephant in the room with band-aids.
There is an obesity crisis in this country, not just adults either, children and even babies are overweight and obese! It’s time to take real action here and educate the masses. We can put people on the moon but we can’t directly educate the population about CICO, really? We can make cute colorful pictures of what an ideal plate should look like but can’t tell people the truth about calories and how we are seriously disabling our quality of life and ultimately our nation with them? I think it’s time to take off the kid gloves and stop sugar coating the truth, literally. Give the people real information and let them make informed choices. As things are now, I don’t believe people are sufficiently informed and that’s the heart of the problem.1 -
I don't think kids are obese because people don't know about calories.
I also don't think it's realistic to think that 50% of the population is going to want to count calories rigorously.
Obviously, I agree that people SHOULD learn about calories if they don't know how it works already (and I'd say that that is part of MyPlate, but that there are different levels depending on goal and age group, and it depends also on how it's communicated). But when I went to the website and looked around, I saw a calorie estimator thingy like you have on MFP (but of course you have to be willing to count).
I like counting calories and recommend it (and MFP) to people as a good way to lose weight, but if people really paid attention to serving sizes and followed the advice at MyPlate I think most wouldn't be overweight (I got fat eating a diet that largely (not entirely) followed the food recommendations, as that's how I like to eat, but I overate and knew it (when I forced myself to think about it realistically), and I was too sedentary when gaining). And of course no one eats the (so called) SAD or is totally sedentary because they think it's healthful, and yet lots of people do both.1 -
Consider the number of folks here on MFP who are still trying to avoid eating vegetables. They don't know about the healthy eating plate and they certainly aren't filling their half their plates with fruits and vegetables. Think about how many folks here on MFP are completely unaware of the importance of whole grains. The Healthy Eating Plate is unknown to many of these people. Life expectancy is going down across a large swath of the American public because they don't know or do these simple things. Most of the information they receive about eating is from advertising. Were you to do a survey, I'm sure you'd find more people know about Hot Pockets than the Healthy Eating Plate.
Yes, we can quibble about the details of the Healthy Eating Plate or the FAO guideline or the state of the research into sodium consumption or saturated fat recommendations but the most important issue to my mind is education -- by that I don't mean K-12 education, although that is certainly important, but lifelong education about healthy eating that is constantly being adjusted to represent the changing nature of our understanding of what healthy eating actually is.3 -
PrimalForLife wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »I think nutritional guidelines should be based on how people like to eat, not how we "should" eat. It should be balanced more healthily - not restrict fat. Differentiate better between fruit and vegetables, not count juice and dried fruit. Not get hung up in details that are bound to be misinterpreted. It could be rearranged to look more like real meals, and should aim to convey the overall message of variety, balance, home cooked and family meals. I don't know if the current model is viable even with modifications. Brazil's nutritional guidelines are almost perfect and should be the gold standard.
I found these (http://www.fao.org/nutrition/education/food-based-dietary-guidelines/regions/countries/brazil/en/) - is that what you are referring to?
Those make sense.0 -
It does not matter people.
0 -
Are the guidelines there to address nutrition or weight management?
I thought they were about nutrition mainly. Perhaps finding out how many calories you need should be emphasized more.
I don't think most Americans are looking at myplate guidelines at all.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
More along the lines of they need to prove their guidelines are based on more than tradition. Why is the departmen of agriculture telling people what to eat? That seems like a bit of a conflict of interest.
I would assume nutritional guidelines would be based on what would be best for the people's health. Proof that those foods will make you the healthiest that a food could. I don't see it for all of their recommendations.
Much of the recommendations seem fine. Lots of colourful veggies - great. Whole fruits - good. Variety of protein foods - good but I would add that you need a moderate amount and include examples, and I don't think nuts and seeds are great protein sources. Limit added sugar to under 10% a day - okay but that is still over 10 teaspoons of sugar (on top of what is in whole foods) a day. That is a fair bit.
I dislike that they say to limit saturate fat to below 10% since there is not good science to support it. The same goes for limiting sodium to under 2300 mg a day - good science says that is too low for most people. I see no science that would explain why fat free or low fat dairy is more nutritious than full fat dairy. If worried about the calories why not state that less should be consumed than no fat? Seems a simple fix. I also think dairy should be written as something thatn can be consumed and not something that should be consumed. We do not need cow milk - it can be part of a healthy diet but many people do better without it.
I dislike that they say grains should be eaten. Why? they are not needed for good health and I doubt they contribute much if people are eating meats, veggies, and fruits. I think grains can be an option for many who are healthy but for the metabolicaly unhealthy, they should probably be limited or avoided until they are metabolically healthy.
I did not find any discussion on CICO either. Is it even in there?
Its not all bad but enough of it is pointless that they should drop a sizeable chunk of it or start over.... Or perhaps the government, and dept. of agriculture, should just back out of giving dietary advice.
So bottom line, it's directionally correct per your own comment "Much of the recommendations seem fine."
As far as CICO, the section linked talks about calorie needs for various individuals.
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-2/
There is also a link to another site that allows calorie and activity tracking with discussion on balancing CICO and a really nice database that allows side by side comparisons to different foods.
https://www.supertracker.usda.gov/
There are also links in the guidelines to sites discussing physical activity.2 -
HeidiCooksSupper wrote: »Consider the number of folks here on MFP who are still trying to avoid eating vegetables. They don't know about the healthy eating plate and they certainly aren't filling their half their plates with fruits and vegetables.
IMO, they might well know about the healthy eating plate or MyPlate (kids are probably more likely to know about MyPlate, adults maybe have a vague recollection of whatever was in vogue when they were kids). However, whether they do or not, I am positive they know that they are supposed to eat vegetables and that it's healthier to do so. They choose not to anyway.Think about how many folks here on MFP are completely unaware of the importance of whole grains.
Again, I think virtually everyone on MFP (or Americans in general) know very well that whole grains are supposed to be healthier than refined grains (often people think there's a bigger difference than there is). They also know a diet made up of a huge amount of refined grains and sugar is not great. Many people don't care. It's not a lack of knowledge or bad advice; it's that many people do not follow this kind of advice, for whatever reason they don't care or think they can get away with fixing their diet later or who knows.
(I don't actually think that consuming grains is necessary, although I think it can be healthy and that whole grains are generally to be preferred to refined, although I certainly consume some refined grains too.)
I think the question is why don't people eat healthfully even when they have a general sense of what healthful eating is, and how can you help them develop good habits?
And beats me, I don't know. I do think one problem might be that people tend to think in extremes and assume they have to give up everything they like to eat healthfully and aren't willing to do that, so in that sense the focus on developing good habits a bit at a time is a good one. (I also think a bigger problem is that lots of people don't eat healthfully as kids so don't develop their palates to enjoy vegetables or whatever, and also don't have a clue how to cook.)3 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I think nutritional guidelines should be based on how people like to eat, not how we "should" eat. It should be balanced more healthily - not restrict fat. Differentiate better between fruit and vegetables, not count juice and dried fruit. Not get hung up in details that are bound to be misinterpreted. It could be rearranged to look more like real meals, and should aim to convey the overall message of variety, balance, home cooked and family meals. I don't know if the current model is viable even with modifications. Brazil's nutritional guidelines are almost perfect and should be the gold standard.
I think Brazil's focus is too much on the various levels of processing, although some of the recommendations are good. But people could easily freak out about terminology or focus on whether something is technically processed vs. nutrient dense or part of a balanced meal, as we see people do here.
I don't find them much more helpful than ours, but then as an American who grew up with an American pattern of eating maybe the food group approach just seems more natural and consistent with how one eats, to me.
Note: by "American pattern of eating" I don't mean SAD, but the idea that meals (especially dinner) are structured around protein (when I was growing up it was usually meat, but need not be), a starchy course (often potatoes or a grain-based food like rice or pasta or bread or beans), and of course vegetables.
Really, I think the MyPlate guidelines are quite simple and that healthy eating is really just a matter of common sense.1 -
PrimalForLife wrote: »The 'MyPlate' guidelines don't *seem* to be helping Americans solve the growing obesity problem - should the guidelines remain as is, be modified, or be scrapped altogether? Why?
I think they should reduce the grains. I don't think average joe pays much attention to the USDA myplate guidelines though, they just buy what they can find cheap and they like to eat.1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
More along the lines of they need to prove their guidelines are based on more than tradition. Why is the departmen of agriculture telling people what to eat? That seems like a bit of a conflict of interest.
I would assume nutritional guidelines would be based on what would be best for the people's health. Proof that those foods will make you the healthiest that a food could. I don't see it for all of their recommendations.
Much of the recommendations seem fine. Lots of colourful veggies - great. Whole fruits - good. Variety of protein foods - good but I would add that you need a moderate amount and include examples, and I don't think nuts and seeds are great protein sources. Limit added sugar to under 10% a day - okay but that is still over 10 teaspoons of sugar (on top of what is in whole foods) a day. That is a fair bit.
I dislike that they say to limit saturate fat to below 10% since there is not good science to support it. The same goes for limiting sodium to under 2300 mg a day - good science says that is too low for most people. I see no science that would explain why fat free or low fat dairy is more nutritious than full fat dairy. If worried about the calories why not state that less should be consumed than no fat? Seems a simple fix. I also think dairy should be written as something thatn can be consumed and not something that should be consumed. We do not need cow milk - it can be part of a healthy diet but many people do better without it.
I dislike that they say grains should be eaten. Why? they are not needed for good health and I doubt they contribute much if people are eating meats, veggies, and fruits. I think grains can be an option for many who are healthy but for the metabolicaly unhealthy, they should probably be limited or avoided until they are metabolically healthy.
I did not find any discussion on CICO either. Is it even in there?
Its not all bad but enough of it is pointless that they should drop a sizeable chunk of it or start over.... Or perhaps the government, and dept. of agriculture, should just back out of giving dietary advice.
So bottom line, it's directionally correct per your own comment "Much of the recommendations seem fine."
As far as CICO, the section linked talks about calorie needs for various individuals.
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix-2/
There is also a link to another site that allows calorie and activity tracking with discussion on balancing CICO and a really nice database that allows side by side comparisons to different foods.
https://www.supertracker.usda.gov/
There are also links in the guidelines to sites discussing physical activity.
Yeah, it's not all bad. Over half of the info seems right and supported by science... that just doesn't seem to be enough for me.
My mistake. If you go looking, and read the appendix #2, there is information on CICO. They could have done much better with that.0 -
Ehhh... I lost weight and improved all my health test marks (cholesterol, blood pressure, blood sugar count) by following the basic FDA guidelines.
My Plate was designed as a teaching tool for kids, so no surprise CICO isn't in there. But avg daily calorie count is included as part of the FDA recommendations.1
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