Protein Shake: How soon before/after workout?

I've been gettin up at 5:30 to workout at home (on empty stomach), take a shower and then drink it on my way to work..

I can't eat that early but the shake goes down well. Sometime I might have a glass of V8 or other juice before I go out if I'm feeling queasy..

Most experts say within 1 hour post workout.

Before works too but if you're looking for something that will help DURING your workout, make sure it's a fast digesting protein. There's ones specific to preworkout programs.

The optimal time for a recovery shake (30 g Carb with 15 gram protein) is within 2 hours of your workout following intense training. Following intense training, protein breakdown is at a maximal state so ingesting your protein immediatly after the workout counteracts this to restore or create a state of protein synthesis.

As well, since your muscles are depleted of energy, including a carb component in a 2:1 ratio to protein produces insulin release which while restores glycogen in the muscles while breaking down fatty acids leading to fat burn.

Check the following references for detailed explanations:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/about-post-workout-nutrition
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/importance.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/advanced_workout_nutrition.htm

So question...

If I train fasted and then don't eat any calories for atleast 4 hours after I finish my training...what happens?

(awaits this answer)

The optimal time for a recovery shake (30 g Carb with 15 gram protein) is within 2 hours of your workout following intense training. Following intense training, protein breakdown is at a maximal state so ingesting your protein immediatly after the workout counteracts this to restore or create a state of protein synthesis.

As well, since your muscles are depleted of energy, including a carb component in a 2:1 ratio to protein produces insulin release which while restores glycogen in the muscles while breaking down fatty acids leading to fat burn.

Check the following references for detailed explanations:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/about-post-workout-nutrition
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/importance.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/advanced_workout_nutrition.htm

So question...

If I train fasted and then don't eat any calories for atleast 4 hours after I finish my training...what happens?

(awaits this answer)

Ref: Importance of Post Working Nutritoin - Feeding Hungry Muscles

"Feeding Hungry Muscles

As I mentioned earlier, all trainees (male or female), regardless of their chosen mode of exercise, must take their post-exercise nutrition seriously in order to provide the muscle with the raw materials it needs. As all types of exercise use carbohydrates for energy, muscle carbohydrate depletion is inevitable. Therefore a post-workout meal high in carbohydrates is required to refill muscle carbohydrate/energy stores. However any ol' amount of carbohydrates will not do. You need to consume enough carbohydrates to promote a substantial insulin release. Insulin is the hormone responsible for shuttling carbohydrates and amino acids into the muscle. In doing this, carbohydrate resynthesis is accelerated and protein balance becomes positive, leading to rapid repair of the muscle tissue. Therefore, by consuming a large amount of carbohydrates, you will promote a large insulin release, increase glycogen storage, and increase protein repair. Research has shown that a carbohydrate intake of 0.8 to 1.2 grams per 1 kilogram of body weight maximizes glycogen synthesis and accelerates protein repair. However, unless you've had a very long, intense workout, 1.2g/kg may be a bit excessive as excess carbohydrate can be converted to bodyfat. Therefore I recommend 0.8g of carbohydrate per 1 kilogram of body weight for speeding up muscle carbohydrate replenishment while preventing excess fat gain (van Loon et al 2000a).

In addition, since muscle protein is degraded during exercise, the addition of a relatively large amount of protein to your post exercise meal is necessary to help rebuild the structural aspects of the muscle. After exercise, the body decreases its rate of protein synthesis and increases its rate of protein breakdown. However, the provision of protein and amino acid solutions has been shown to reverse this trend, increasing protein synthesis and decreasing protein breakdown. Researchers have used anywhere from 0.2g - 0.4g of protein per 1 kilogram of body weight to demonstrate the effectiveness of adding protein to a post-workout carbohydrate drink (van Loon et al 2000b, Roy et al 1998). As an increased consumption of the essential amino acids may lead to a more positive protein balance, 0.4g/kg may be better than 0.2g/kg.

While your post-workout feeding should be rich protein and carbohydrate, this meal should be fat free. The consumption of essential fats is one of the most overlooked areas of daily nutritional intake but during the post workout period, eating fat can actually decrease the effectiveness of your post-workout beverage. Since fat slows down transit through the stomach, eating fat during the post workout period may slow the digestion and absorption of carbohydrates and proteins. As your post workout feeding should be designed to promote the most rapid delivery of carbohydrates and protein to your depleted muscles, fats should be avoided during this time.

Finally, another important factor to consider is the timing of this meal. It is absolutely crucial that you consume your post-workout meal immediately after exercise. As indicated above, after exercise, the muscles are depleted and require an abundance of protein and carbohydrate. In addition, during this time, the muscles are biochemically "primed" for nutrient uptake. This phenomenon is commonly known as the "window of opportunity". Over the course of the recovery period, this window gradually closes and by failing to eat immediately after exercise, you diminish your chances of promoting full recovery. To illustrate how quickly this window closes, research has shown that consuming a post-exercise meal immediately after working out is superior to consuming one only 1 hour later. In addition, consuming one 1 hour later is superior to consuming one 3 hours later (Tipton et al 2001, Levenhagen et al 2001). If you wait too long, glycogen replenishment and protein repair will be compromised.

In conclusion, when you decided to start exercising you decided to give up a specific amount of time per week in the interest of getting better, physically. However, if you haven't spent the necessary time thinking about post-exercise nutrition, you're missing much of the benefit that comes with exercising. I assure you that once you start paying attention to this variable in the recovery equation, your time in the gym will be much better invested."

Another Reference: REGULATION OF MUSCLE GLYCOGEN REPLETION, MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS AND REPAIR FOLLOWING EXERCISE - http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/3/v3n3-3text.php

"Timing of Carbohydrate Consumption After Exercise
It has been found that muscle glycogen synthesis is more rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately following exercise as opposed to waiting several hours (Ivy et al., 1988a). When carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise the rate of glycogen synthesis averages between 6 to 8 mmol·kg-1 wet wt·h-1; whereas, if the supplement is delayed several hours the rate of synthesis is reduced 50% (Mæhlum et al., 1977; Blom et al., 1987; Ivy et al. 1988a). The increased synthesis immediately post exercise is due in part to a faster rate of muscle glucose uptake as a result of an increase in muscle insulin sensitivity (Garetto et al., 1984; Richter et al., 1984; Cartee et al., 1989), and an increase in the concentration of glucose transporters associated with the plasma membrane of the muscle (Goodyear et al., 1990; Etgen et al., 1996). With time, however, the increase in insulin sensitivity and membrane glucose transporter concentration declines resulting in a slower rate of muscle glucose uptake and glycogen storage. For instance, Okamura et al. (1997) infused glucose at the same rate in dogs either immediately after exercise or 2- hours after exercise. Plasma glucose and insulin levels were significantly lower in the dogs infused immediately after exercise, but their rates of hindlimb glucose uptake were significantly greater. Levenhagen et al. (2001) found that leg glucose uptake was increased 3-fold above basal when supplemented immediately after exercise with carbohydrate, and increased only 44% above basal when supplemented 3-hours after exercise. This difference in rate of uptake occurred despite no differences in leg blood flow, or blood glucose and insulin concentrations between the two treatments.

It should also be pointed out that after exercise that depletes the body's carbohydrate stores, there is little if any increase in muscle glycogen storage until adequate carbohydrate is made available (Ivy et al., 1988a; Ivy et al., 1998b; Zawadzki et al., 1992). Therefore, early intake of carbohydrate after strenuous exercise is essential because it provides an immediate source of substrate to the muscle, while also taking advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity and membrane permeability of the muscle to glucose. Furthermore, supplementing immediately after exercise appears to delay the decline in insulin sensitivity, and with frequent supplementation, a relatively rapid rate of glycogen storage can be maintained for up to 8-hours post exercise (Blom et al., 1987; Ivy et al., 1988b)."

Muscle hypertrophy occurs when a positive protein balance can be established during recovery

Umm…. No. The two types of muscle hypertrophy occur as a result of intensity and volume not diet. It involves contractile proteins, not dietary proteins.

As soon as you drop that last dumbbell, you should be consuming some postworkout nutrition.

What if I don’t train with dumbbells?

All of this post-exercise nutrition nonsense is based on the idea that your body is stupid and can’t function properly without your intervention. This is a quite arrogant ideology. I don’t have to do anything special for my body to digest food, grow hair, or breath and I also don’t have to do anything special for my body to recover from exercise. Your body is not stupid, it can take care of its normal functions by itself.

The timing of your post-workout nutrition is not important.

1. Replenishing glycogen levels are maximized within 24 hours of exercise, not 2 hours. - None of the references above have anything to do with this. It's about capitalizing on

2. Pre-workout and post-workout meals have very minor effect on protein synthesis and muscle blood flow. Drinking BCAA's during your workout have about 200% more effect on synthesis (intra-workout) to optimize recovery. This has been tested and tested again. BCAA's have no calories.

3. Getting your nutrients (both macronutrients and micronutrients) over the course of a 24 hour period completely and utterly TRUMP your post-workout meal that you OCD over 30 minutes to 2 hours after you finish training.

4. If you are getting your calorie intake per day and you are at a surplus, it does not matter if you eat that surplus in just one or two meals. You will build the same muscle (as long as you training regime is good) that you will build eating or drinking that post-workout meal.

5. Esmark et al. (2001), study showed that consuming the post workout meal just 2 hours after working out actually prevented any improvements induced by the training. (you can look it up if you want to)

Dude, there's no need to get rude or confrontational. You asked for my answer which I provided including all the relevant research and references. It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to continually educate yourself every day.

I get the impression that you're only here to argue rather than read any of the links I've shared, with your comment about me being OCD rather uncalled for. I'm not here to call out anyone, or argue over specifics.

I consider myself fortunate to work hand in hand with some great researchers, coaches and trainers who continually relate me to the latest findings, techniques and research so that I can continually learn.

I stand by the fact that my references are sound as are the researchers who've referenced me to them. I also have a minor in Kinesiology and Sport Performance and can confirm that more than half the stuff I learned during my University days has since been changed or contradicted by more current research.

Esmark et al. (2001) in the National Library of Medicine PubMed, is better known as: Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11507179

1. Age-associated loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength can partly be counteracted by resistance training, causing a net synthesis of muscular proteins. Protein synthesis is influenced synergistically by postexercise amino acid supplementation, but the importance of the timing of protein intake remains unresolved.

2. The study investigated the importance of immediate (P0) or delayed (P2) intake of an oral protein supplement upon muscle hypertrophy and strength over a period of resistance training in elderly males.

3. Thirteen men (age, 74 +/- 1 years; body mass index (BMI), 25 +/- 1 kg m(-2) (means +/- S.E.M.)) completed a 12 week resistance training programme (3 times per week) receiving oral protein in liquid form (10 g protein, 7 g carbohydrate, 3 g fat) immediately after (P0) or 2 h after (P2) each training session. Muscle hypertrophy was evaluated by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and from muscle biopsies and muscle strength was determined using dynamic and isokinetic strength measurements. Body composition was determined from dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA) and food records were obtained over 4 days. The plasma insulin response to protein supplementation was also determined.

4. In response to training, the cross-sectional area of m. quadriceps femoris (54.6 +/- 0.5 to 58.3 +/- 0.5 cm(2)) and mean fibre area (4047 +/- 320 to 5019 +/- 615 microm(2)) increased in the P0 group, whereas no significant increase was observed in P2. For P0 both dynamic and isokinetic strength increased, by 46 and 15 %, respectively (P < 0.05), whereas P2 only improved in dynamic strength, by 36 % (P < 0.05). No differences in glucose or insulin response were observed between protein intake at 0 and 2 h postexercise.

5. We conclude that early intake of an oral protein supplement after resistance training is important for the development of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle of elderly men in response to resistance training.

I don't see anywhere in that Abstract that states "study showed that consuming the post workout meal just 2 hours after working out actually prevented any improvements induced by the training". Quite the opposite in fact.

Again, If you don't like my answer, that's your choice. But I would suggest that you check the references and research before going out and attacking people for no purpose than "just to be right."