Beyond frustration
Replies
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Switch to a proven weight training program focusing on compound lifts instead of all the cardio.
That will at least raise your BMR eventually.
Run Thinner Leaner Stronger, Strong Curves, Stronglifts5x5 or something like that.
"upper body weights" isn't going to cut it, literally or figuratively.
Do your cardio after you lift or on days you don't lift.
Proper weight training should be the focus with cardio being secondary unless you are training for a specific event or sport.
Start logging properly with MFP, and watch your macros.
Your protein intake is way too low based on your post.
Start with from 0.8 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight, about 20% - 25% fat and the rest carbs.
You can adjust from there, but you seem to be getting less than 1/2 the protein you need.
That would imply you are filling in the "blanks" with excessive carbs and/or fats.
That sort of thing can increase insulin resistance and water retention, for example.
Switch to "maintenance calories" for a few weeks and then start over.
You are not going to see the results you want until you make the necessary changes.3 -
Your weight changes given your gender and relatively homeostatic situation are going to be hard to track unless you start using a trending weight application or web site and providing it with sufficient data (6 to 8 weeks including at least a complete monthly cycle).
There is a very extensive and interesting (and too long but a lot of the meat is covered in the first few pages) thread on re-feeds and diet breaks.
I bring this up because you are saying in the same breath that while eating 2200 you're not rapidly gaining and while eating 1200 you're not rapidly losing.
Well, if I were staying put, and unless I was trying to save on groceries, I would rather stay put on 2200 than 1200! And given you've already spent a year and a half stuck and we're about to go into Christmas... well why not spend this time closer to 2200 or your Fitbit TDEE... and then tackle things again after a good break.
Anyways the thread I reference has several links to informative articles and videos.
@Nony_Mouse thread on re-feeds and diet breaks ...7 -
Your weight changes given your gender and relatively homeostatic situation are going to be hard to track unless you start using a trending weight application or web site and providing it with sufficient data (6 to 8 weeks including at least a complete monthly cycle).
There is a very extensive and interesting (and too long but a lot of the meat is covered in the first few pages) thread on re-feeds and diet breaks.
I bring this up because you are saying in the same breath that while eating 2200 you're not rapidly gaining and while eating 1200 you're not rapidly losing.
Well, if I were staying put, and unless I was trying to save on groceries, I would rather stay put on 2200 than 1200! And given you've already spent a year and a half stuck and we're about to go into Christmas... well why not spend this time closer to 2200 or your Fitbit TDEE... and then tackle things again after a good break.
Anyways the thread I reference has several links to informative articles and videos.
@Nony_Mouse thread on re-feeds and diet breaks ...
Agree with all of this, especially the bolded.5 -
Also changing the type of Exercise you do maybe something to think about . Muscles burn more calories then fat. Maybe doing more weights then cardio and spin class would be a better solution for your situation. Give it a try for a couple of months see where you stand with your weight goal after that. Good luck
I actually did PHUL for a few months last year and that's what I'm saying it didn't make any change in muscle. I am doing upper body weight training 3x week now, though.0 -
jesshali119 wrote: »At your weight and height, your Sedentary TDEE is coming up at 1730 for me. And with your Fitbit telling you your TDEE is 2291, that would mean you're burning 561 calories in exercise every day. Does that sound about right to you? An average person running a 10k in an hour will burn about 500-600 calories.
Yes, that does sound right. Depending on how hard I work in the class is it could be between 430 and 650, as I've noticed while doing indoor cycling.
Hmmmm, well it's definitely a tricky situation. I can see how you're frustrated. I read an article that fitbits can be up to 27% inaccurate in some cases, so your calorie burn could be inflated a bit. Let's just assume you're burning about 400 calories through exercise each day, so your TDEE could be around 2130. So to lose 1 lbs a week, you'd wanna aim for 1630. It sounds like you're tracking your intake well, but are there any areas where you could be slipping? I'd take a look at things like: your homemade peanut butter (maybe it's higher in fat than you think?), cooking oils/butters, etc. Those little sneaky calories. Really buckle down for a month and see what happens. When you're fairly short without a lot of weight to lose, the margin of error really tightens up. Sorry if this isn't super helpful, that's all I can think of!
I have found mine to be pretty accurate as far as heart rate and step count. Even if the calorie burn is slightly off, I am still not eating near that number. Serious question though, how is 20-25 pounds not a lot to lose where it's very visible on my body? It's mainly my stomach, it's disgusting for lack of a better word.0 -
PHUL is an INTERMEDIATE bodybuilder's hypertrophy split.jesshali119 wrote: »I actually did PHUL for a few months last year and that's what I'm saying it didn't make any change in muscle. I am doing upper body weight training 3x week now, though.
You are not an intermediate-level bodybuilder.
Follow Thinner Leaner Stronger, Strong Curves, StrongLifts5x5, Starting Strength, Greyskull LP or something like them for at least 3 - 6 months.
You need to be on a BEGINNER strength-focused program (with an emphasis on compound barbell lifts) first.3 -
Have you considered IF? I see lots of posts on 5:2 pages saying that they had got stuck in a plateau and fasting helped to get things moving again.5
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Have you tried backing off on some of the exercise (like dropping one of the spin classes). I'm just wondering if this is some type of stress response, since you've been at this so long. Maybe a full diet break with a little less exercise might be helpful?
Letting myself have whatever for dinner, and only going to 4 classes a week is me cutting back. I used to do some form of cardio 7 days a week for at least 45 minutes.7 -
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Link to the most excellent refeeds and diet breaks thread http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks#latest
And pfft, too long @pav8888?? It's only ~800 posts
But yes, pertinent info in initial pages, excellent synopsis on p.6 for the TL;DR. Loads more good stuff on subsequent pages, but you can read those at your leisure. 2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Link to the most excellent refeeds and diet breaks thread http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks#latest
And pfft, too long @pav8888?? It's only ~800 posts But yes, pertinent info in initial pages, excellent synopsis on p.6 for the TL;DR. Loads more good stuff on subsequent pages, but you can read those at your leisure.
Thank you, I will read through it!2 -
LOL, I should read the whole thread instead of starting with the post that tagged me before posting links
OP, eat your exercise cals. You're running a hell of a deficit by not eating them, and probably have way jacked up water weight from cortisol. That can be a phenomenal amount (like 10-20 lbs), and mask fat loss for months.
I would try a controlled diet break (as outlined in the diet break article in the thread linked), basing it off your Fitbit cals. I go by what my Fitbit says, and find it to be highly accurate for me, though ymmv.9 -
jesshali119 wrote: »Have you tried backing off on some of the exercise (like dropping one of the spin classes). I'm just wondering if this is some type of stress response, since you've been at this so long. Maybe a full diet break with a little less exercise might be helpful?
Letting myself have whatever for dinner, and only going to 4 classes a week is me cutting back. I used to do some form of cardio 7 days a week for at least 45 minutes.
I definitely think that a full break is in order, then.0 -
jesshali119 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Link to the most excellent refeeds and diet breaks thread http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks#latest
And pfft, too long @pav8888?? It's only ~800 posts But yes, pertinent info in initial pages, excellent synopsis on p.6 for the TL;DR. Loads more good stuff on subsequent pages, but you can read those at your leisure.
Thank you, I will read through it!
Awesome
And the reason I say to go by your Fitbit cals for a diet break is that you really don't want to under-shoot maintenance cals on that, because it won't have the desired effect. So if your Fitbit says 2700 on an active day, for example, eat that. 4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »LOL, I should read the whole thread instead of starting with the post that tagged me before posting links
OP, eat your exercise cals. You're running a hell of a deficit by not eating them, and probably have way jacked up water weight from cortisol. That can be a phenomenal amount (like 10-20 lbs), and mask fat loss for months.
I would try a controlled diet break (as outlined in the diet break article in the thread linked), basing it off your Fitbit cals. I go by what my Fitbit says, and find it to be highly accurate for me, though ymmv.
But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.0 -
jesshali119 wrote: »But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.
Consider letting go of your fears and preconceived notions of what you think you should do and just listen to the experienced people like @Nony_Mouse instead.
What you think you should do is not working.
If you are not willing to trust and take the advice then why are you asking for it?
Most of the experienced and dedicated people in the Community are not going to tell you what you want to hear.
Instead they will tell you what you NEED to hear.26 -
jesshali119 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »LOL, I should read the whole thread instead of starting with the post that tagged me before posting links
OP, eat your exercise cals. You're running a hell of a deficit by not eating them, and probably have way jacked up water weight from cortisol. That can be a phenomenal amount (like 10-20 lbs), and mask fat loss for months.
I would try a controlled diet break (as outlined in the diet break article in the thread linked), basing it off your Fitbit cals. I go by what my Fitbit says, and find it to be highly accurate for me, though ymmv.
But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.
The diet break is two weeks (though you may want to do longer). You'll get a small initial uptick in weight from glycogen replenishment and more food in your system, that will level out, and drop off once you go back to a deficit. If you happen to be a couple of hundred cals a day out on your maintenance cals, over two weeks that's 2800 cals, less than a pound worth of fat gain. For the difference between doing it properly and getting the desired effect, and missing maintenance and having your body go 'nope, still not enough food, best keep these adaptations going', it's worth it, no?
When you get a chance to read the thread, you'll see that those who have done it have dropped back to starting weight and then some afterwards. I tagged on something like an extra 600g (1.3 lb) of loss in the few days after finishing my break, and I'd only been back at a deficit for 6 weeks prior to the break.3 -
Particularly pay attention to @CynthiasChoice's posts in that thread. She was absolutely terrified she'd regain 10 lbs when I first suggested the diet break to her in another thread. Spoiler, she didn't. It is scary, but you just need to take a deep breath and trust the process 1
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jesshali119 wrote: »But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.
Consider letting go of your fears and preconceived notions of what you think you should do and just listen to the experienced people like @Nony_Mouse instead.
Clearly what you think you should do is not working.
If you are not willing to trust and take the advice then why are you asking for it?
Most of the experienced and dedicated people in the Community are not going to tell you what you want to hear.
Instead they will tell you what you NEED to hear.
I was asking a legitimate question. I never said i wouldn't consider it.6 -
jesshali119 wrote: »I was asking a legitimate question. I never said i wouldn't consider it.
I guess it is a matter of semantics.
I think of that as an "irrelevant" question.
Either I value someone's opinion enough to take their advice or I don't.
If I do not value the opinion then I am not going to ask for it.
Even your choice of words implies fear and reluctance to me -"consider it" instead of "do it" & "terrifying to me".
Let go of the fear.
This is a process that will take discipline and time.
It will also take a lot of tweaking and careful monitoring.
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This may not describe you, just throwing it out there because you're trying to cover all the bases. I see gram measurements, which would seem to point to weighing, but ARE you weighing? I find I get cal creep very, very easily eyeballing even though I've been counting calories since...hmmm. 1978. It just seems to happen.
For me, I have never eaten "too little" to lose weight. When I was a self-hating freak in high school and ate 800 calories a day, fainted a lot, lost my memory and most of my hair, I was still continuing to lose during that time. I can't help you there...I saw someone say she can't lose if she eats too little but I wanted to point out that that isn't everybody. Even (I hate bringing this up but it still stands as a verifiable example) people in various concentration or prison camps through the ages lost weight to the point of weighing 70, 60, 50 lbs. until their deaths, by undereating. I am not a scientist but I feel like eating "too little to lose weight" is exceedingly rare. JMO.
I'd go back, count every single bite after weighing...and bring the calories down a hair. May not seem fair but for some of us, it is what it is. I read other women my age, height, etc. losing eating many more calories than I do, given roughly equivalent activity levels. It seems unfair but OTOH there are probably women who have to eat even less than I do, again, all other things being equal. I know this is frustrating (been there) but I have always found getting back to basics, exact weighing, and lowering my calories got the weight loss going again.
With that said, I've recently gained a few pounds back. Why? You guessed it - I've been overeating. Overeating for me, which for the next 50-year-old short woman who walks a lot and works out might be maintenance or weight loss levels. It is what it is...sometimes, you really need to tweak.5 -
jesshali119 wrote: »I was asking a legitimate question. I never said i wouldn't consider it.
I guess it is a matter of semantics.
I think of that as an "irrelevant" question.
Either I value someone's opinion enough to take their advice or I don't.
If I do not value the opinion then I am not going to ask for it.
Even your choice of words there implies fear and reluctance to me: "consider it" instead of "do it".
Just because someone is nervous about doing something, doesn't mean it's irrelevant or that it's not valuable. There's a number of things that people have suggested the past few hours. The reason I'm mostly hesitant to ever ask for help is for people such as yourself that mince words and try to find where you see the hesitation while the person is just trying to make sense of all the new information helpful people have thrown out there.12 -
jesshali119 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »LOL, I should read the whole thread instead of starting with the post that tagged me before posting links
OP, eat your exercise cals. You're running a hell of a deficit by not eating them, and probably have way jacked up water weight from cortisol. That can be a phenomenal amount (like 10-20 lbs), and mask fat loss for months.
I would try a controlled diet break (as outlined in the diet break article in the thread linked), basing it off your Fitbit cals. I go by what my Fitbit says, and find it to be highly accurate for me, though ymmv.
But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.
You have just told us you have not gained or lost no matter what you tried. Why would what we are suggesting (which is a tried and tested method) be a sudden opportunity to gain weight? This refeeding and diet break stuff allows you to relax and not sweat the weight loss (which it sounds like you have been doing - excessive cardio and low calories most of the time), allows your hormones to adjust back to normal levels...etc, etc. Read the refeed/diet break thread and give it a go....seriously, lots of us have and are thankful for the flexibility it allows...you have been stuck for year, what have you got to lose apart from some water weight and some more fat?
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I second the advice for a diet break and I completely understand the fear of gaining weight. You have lost a significant amount and feeling like you will backslide is scary. I would lean on the knowledge that she is right and even if you end up eating over by a little it wouldn’t be enough to do more than a pound of gain over that two weeks. Asking for clarification and assurance does not make you weak or crazy in my opinion. You don’t “know” any of us or have any reason to blindly trust people. They would seem a little crazy to me.
*edited to fix the ridiculous number of typos caused by cold hands
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nexangelus wrote: »jesshali119 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »LOL, I should read the whole thread instead of starting with the post that tagged me before posting links
OP, eat your exercise cals. You're running a hell of a deficit by not eating them, and probably have way jacked up water weight from cortisol. That can be a phenomenal amount (like 10-20 lbs), and mask fat loss for months.
I would try a controlled diet break (as outlined in the diet break article in the thread linked), basing it off your Fitbit cals. I go by what my Fitbit says, and find it to be highly accurate for me, though ymmv.
But wouldn't that give the opportunity for weight gain? it would be terrifying to me to do.
You have just told us you have not gained or lost no matter what you tried. Why would what we are suggesting (which is a tried and tested method) be a sudden opportunity to gain weight? This refeeding and diet break stuff allows you to relax and not sweat the weight loss (which it sounds like you have been doing - excessive cardio and low calories most of the time), allows your hormones to adjust back to normal levels...etc, etc. Read the refeed/diet break thread and give it a go....seriously, lots of us have and are thankful for the flexibility it allows...you have been stuck for year, what have you got to lose apart from some water weight and some more fat?
No, you're right. I just want to read it through before saying or thinking yes i'll definitely do it. It's worth a try.2 -
This may not describe you, just throwing it out there because you're trying to cover all the bases. I see gram measurements, which would seem to point to weighing, but ARE you weighing? I find I get cal creep very, very easily eyeballing even though I've been counting calories since...hmmm. 1978. It just seems to happen.
For me, I have never eaten "too little" to lose weight. When I was a self-hating freak in high school and ate 800 calories a day, fainted a lot, lost my memory and most of my hair, I was still continuing to lose during that time. I can't help you there...I saw someone say she can't lose if she eats too little but I wanted to point out that that isn't everybody. Even (I hate bringing this up but it still stands as a verifiable example) people in various concentration or prison camps through the ages lost weight to the point of weighing 70, 60, 50 lbs. until their deaths, by undereating. I am not a scientist but I feel like eating "too little to lose weight" is exceedingly rare. JMO.
I'd go back, count every single bite after weighing...and bring the calories down a hair. May not seem fair but for some of us, it is what it is. I read other women my age, height, etc. losing eating many more calories than I do, given roughly equivalent activity levels. It seems unfair but OTOH there are probably women who have to eat even less than I do, again, all other things being equal. I know this is frustrating (been there) but I have always found getting back to basics, exact weighing, and lowering my calories got the weight loss going again.
With that said, I've recently gained a few pounds back. Why? You guessed it - I've been overeating. Overeating for me, which for the next 50-year-old short woman who walks a lot and works out might be maintenance or weight loss levels. It is what it is...sometimes, you really need to tweak.
Then how would I know the exact grams and ounces without weighing? I get what you're saying but whether it's a diet break or being strict, I'm always going to weigh what I eat. It's part of the obsessive I can have control over.1 -
Wow. I'm done here.jesshali119 wrote: »The reason I'm mostly hesitant to ever ask for help is for people such as yourself that mince words and try to find where you see the hesitation while the person is just trying to make sense of all the new information helpful people have thrown out there.
Good luck to you.
8 -
jesshali119 wrote: »This may not describe you, just throwing it out there because you're trying to cover all the bases. I see gram measurements, which would seem to point to weighing, but ARE you weighing? I find I get cal creep very, very easily eyeballing even though I've been counting calories since...hmmm. 1978. It just seems to happen.
For me, I have never eaten "too little" to lose weight. When I was a self-hating freak in high school and ate 800 calories a day, fainted a lot, lost my memory and most of my hair, I was still continuing to lose during that time. I can't help you there...I saw someone say she can't lose if she eats too little but I wanted to point out that that isn't everybody. Even (I hate bringing this up but it still stands as a verifiable example) people in various concentration or prison camps through the ages lost weight to the point of weighing 70, 60, 50 lbs. until their deaths, by undereating. I am not a scientist but I feel like eating "too little to lose weight" is exceedingly rare. JMO.
I'd go back, count every single bite after weighing...and bring the calories down a hair. May not seem fair but for some of us, it is what it is. I read other women my age, height, etc. losing eating many more calories than I do, given roughly equivalent activity levels. It seems unfair but OTOH there are probably women who have to eat even less than I do, again, all other things being equal. I know this is frustrating (been there) but I have always found getting back to basics, exact weighing, and lowering my calories got the weight loss going again.
With that said, I've recently gained a few pounds back. Why? You guessed it - I've been overeating. Overeating for me, which for the next 50-year-old short woman who walks a lot and works out might be maintenance or weight loss levels. It is what it is...sometimes, you really need to tweak.
Then how would I know the exact grams and ounces without weighing? I get what you're saying but whether it's a diet break or being strict, I'm always going to weigh what I eat. It's part of the obsessive I can have control over.
Oh you absolutely should still be weighing your food on a diet break, don't worry!! It's a controlled thing, not the free for all some people (not saying you!) seem to assume. I was absolutely meticulous on mine, as I am on my refeed weekends too.jesshali119 wrote: »
No, you're right. I just want to read it through before saying or thinking yes i'll definitely do it. It's worth a try.
It's fine to take time tho think and digest. The beauty of the refeeds thread is that, whist it has all the science theory stuff, it also has all the personal accounts, which are the real strength of the thread I think. Actual testimonials from people who have done it. 5 -
jesshali119 wrote: »This may not describe you, just throwing it out there because you're trying to cover all the bases. I see gram measurements, which would seem to point to weighing, but ARE you weighing? I find I get cal creep very, very easily eyeballing even though I've been counting calories since...hmmm. 1978. It just seems to happen.
For me, I have never eaten "too little" to lose weight. When I was a self-hating freak in high school and ate 800 calories a day, fainted a lot, lost my memory and most of my hair, I was still continuing to lose during that time. I can't help you there...I saw someone say she can't lose if she eats too little but I wanted to point out that that isn't everybody. Even (I hate bringing this up but it still stands as a verifiable example) people in various concentration or prison camps through the ages lost weight to the point of weighing 70, 60, 50 lbs. until their deaths, by undereating. I am not a scientist but I feel like eating "too little to lose weight" is exceedingly rare. JMO.
I'd go back, count every single bite after weighing...and bring the calories down a hair. May not seem fair but for some of us, it is what it is. I read other women my age, height, etc. losing eating many more calories than I do, given roughly equivalent activity levels. It seems unfair but OTOH there are probably women who have to eat even less than I do, again, all other things being equal. I know this is frustrating (been there) but I have always found getting back to basics, exact weighing, and lowering my calories got the weight loss going again.
With that said, I've recently gained a few pounds back. Why? You guessed it - I've been overeating. Overeating for me, which for the next 50-year-old short woman who walks a lot and works out might be maintenance or weight loss levels. It is what it is...sometimes, you really need to tweak.
Then how would I know the exact grams and ounces without weighing? I get what you're saying but whether it's a diet break or being strict, I'm always going to weigh what I eat. It's part of the obsessive I can have control over.
Well, that's why I put all the caveats in and I did say I thought you were probably weighing. I thought it was worth suggesting, though, just in case. You really never know. Some people estimate grams based on servings they've eaten in the past, no differently from estimating tablespoons our ounces in the same way.
I get that you're frustrated but you might rethink how you answer people who are trying to help. If not, then fine, but here's one last bit of advice: if you ask for advice, expect advice.7 -
The issue @LAWoman72 is not that you can't lose weight by reducing calories even more; but, that (after a prolonged period at a deficit, especially if you're not over-fat)*, you start getting a considerable number of hormonal adaptations designed to SLOW DOWN the fat loss you experience. [*start time may vary: the steeper the deficit and the leaner the individual the harder the reaction, usually. Usual term is adaptive thermogenesis. Exercise muscle efficiency plays a role too in reducing the caloric load of exercise. -- see further below about cortisol and water weight as discussed in the refeed thread]
For some people these are enough to "disappear" the deficit they believe they are creating; for others they are only enough to make it smaller. In all cases you can kick your deficit up a notch and seek an even more restrictive regiment--up to and including the passing out you (and other MFPeops) have experienced.
Furthermore, the whole thing can be exacerbated because of water weight variation and water retention either due to stress or the whole host of other reasons because of which people retain water.
Let's face it, as an overweight male with no TOM water retention I still had more than a couple of months where my ending monthly weight was higher than my starting weight, yet I was still losing at an average of 0.5lbs a week, or better.
Without a trending weight app I would have been convinced I was gaining tons of weight at what ought to have been a deficit and I would have been likely to go off the rails in disgust, or counter-productively stress myself with extra exercise.
I note that the refeed thread is mostly looking at water weight being retained because of cortisol while fat loss has continued and is not viewing the hormonal response as adaptive thermogenesis.
I am on the a bit of both are taking place at the same time camp ;-)
It is easy for me to bet that if the OP quits all exercise other than maybe going for a walk for an hour a day or so and eats at ~ maintenance for an active woman of her size she will drop scale weight within a couple of weeks. Easy for me to bet... because no skin off my back if I'm wrong.
However, to address the OP's easy to understand fear of regain I can only bring to her attention HER OWN words that she didn't gain weight while eating for more than a month at 2200 Cal.
And I also bring up to her that even if we accept the extremely unlikely situation that her permanent TDEE is 1500 Cal a day, eating at 2000 would have her gain no more than 1lb of fat a week. Which means that any variation of more than that IS water weight.
At the end of the day the OP has to find some form of setup that she can carry on long term. if she thinks that she can carry on with her current way of life and reduce below 1500 with all the exercise she does more the power to her... and I hope she has good health insurance.
Personally I would prefer to gamble a few lbs in the hope that I would actually be able to eat more and exercise less while still enjoying reasonably good results.
There are enough hints in what the OP has said to indicate that she is not currently having a great time, and that her current relationship with food and exercise is not ideal... improving that may be worth the price of a few lbs all by itself.
What's the plan if she ever injures herself? Or when she turns 55?16
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