low/no starch, low sugar carb - is there such a thing?
CarvedTones
Posts: 2,340 Member
I am on an extremely low starch diet (medical reasons) and trying to lose weight. By the end of the day, I find that I can get enough protein, be over on sugar but be a little short on fat and way short carbs. I am also be on calories. So what would be optimal is to eat a carb that isn't a starch but doesn't have a lot of sugar; is there such a thing? Last night I ended up eating a couple of tablespoons of almond butter to take care of the fat/calories and left the carbs short.
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Follow up question - what's wrong with "too much" sugar when it comes from fruit and I keep my calories where I want them?0
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If it's just starch you have to avoid, you can eat sugar. If you want to lose weight, you have to limit calories. Sugar is sugar; white sugar is made from plants. You are eating too much sugar when you're crowding out other nutrients and/or getting in too many calories in total. Carbs is either sugar or starch (or fiber, but that is almost without calories). You can eat more fat, or more sugar, or a little of each, to replace the energy you're not getting from starch. Do aim to eat a balanced and nutritious diet, make an effort to vary the foods you can eat - it's even more important as well as difficult when you have to cut out so many foods.4
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Ignore the sugar warning. You are going ultra low starch so you have to get your carbs from somewhere. That leaves sugar. The WHO guidelines are chiefly to avoid tooth decay so if you eat extra fruit to compensate brush your teeth afterwards.
I find if I pair my fruit with cheese, nuts, or nut butter it leaves me more satisfied.4 -
CarvedTones wrote: »So what would be optimal is to eat a carb that isn't a starch but doesn't have a lot of sugar; is there such a thing?
No, there really isn't. The calories in carbs come along with sugar or starch (fiber to only a really limited degree and that will go along with sugar and starch anyway).CarvedTones wrote: »Follow up question - what's wrong with "too much" sugar when it comes from fruit and I keep my calories where I want them?
Nothing, IMO -- the WHO and other reputable organizations limit added sugar largely because larger amounts of added sugar tend to be associated with weight gain and because it tends to be in foods with limited nutritional value (and often lots of fat as well as sugar). There are no credible reasons I've seen to limit intrinsic (non added) sugar, such as that from fruit, veg, and dairy, so long as it is not crowding out protein or healthy fats or otherwise limiting the nutritional variety in your diet (which it is not if you are under your carb numbers and have a separate reason to avoid starches).
However, I'll also say that for most people there's no particular need to get to MFP's default macros (protein/carbs/fat) and that if you are under carbs and over on fat and protein that's fine. So if it's easier to add more fat (especially from healthy sources like avocado and nuts -- although I think you get starch with both of those -- or fatty fish), that's an alternative to more fruit or whatever.
I tend to find eating more fruit does make me feel good, though. IMO, focus on different options that work within your diet and what feels good and right for you.2 -
Aim for the leafy green vegetables for your carbs. Or stay lower on them. There's nothing wrong with that.
Fruits, if you decide sugars fit your plan.
Otherwise eat a few olives, or some avocado. Something with a few carbs, but some healthy fats. (yes, both are often classified as fruits, but are low in sugar)
If you're limiting starchy carbs, limit the breads (and pastries), pastas, vegetables that grow below ground (potatoes etc).
Here's a visual:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
Also, the Dash diet Weight Loss Solution is a good resource for folks wanting to limit starches.
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If IIRC, you're doing what's called the London diet even if you don't know that's what you're doing. At least that's your reason for doing it. You just need to eliminate starch because the foundation of the theory behind it is:The London AS / Low Starch Diet was created by Dr. Alan Ebringer, a London-based rheumatologist and researcher who believes that klebsiella bacteria in the gut of people with ankylosing spondylitis (AS) are involved in triggering the disease process via a complex immune response.
It's just starch that's at issue with this protocol, and not all people who try it see relief.
A further note: While you many not have ankylosing spondylitis, I know you mentioned that you tested positive for HLA-B27, and AS is one of the conditions associated with it. I just pulled that quote from a site for people with AS.3 -
Yes on what everyone has said, adding that it might be a good idea to see a registered dietician about your specific nutrition needs.0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »If IIRC, you're doing what's called the London diet even if you don't know that's what you're doing. At least that's your reason for doing it. You just need to eliminate starch because the foundation of the theory behind it is:The London AS / Low Starch Diet was created by Dr. Alan Ebringer, a London-based rheumatologist and researcher who believes that klebsiella bacteria in the gut of people with ankylosing spondylitis (AS) are involved in triggering the disease process via a complex immune response.
It's just starch that's at issue with this protocol, and not all people who try it see relief.
A further note: While you many not have ankylosing spondylitis, I know you mentioned that you tested positive for HLA-B27, and AS is one of the conditions associated with it. I just pulled that quote from a site for people with AS.
Yes, that's correct. I have undifferentiated spondylitis and probably reactive arthritis (harder to diagnose because it comes and goes and by the time you can get in to be seen after a flare it has subsided). What bothers me most is spinal and costochondritis (inflammation of cartilage in the chest wall). I am HLA-B27 positive. There are more recent papers and studies at pubmed; it is no longer a fringe theory. But the diet doesn't help everyone. I know it won't fix the joints where there have been injuries or where it is plain old osteo.1 -
CarvedTones wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »If IIRC, you're doing what's called the London diet even if you don't know that's what you're doing. At least that's your reason for doing it. You just need to eliminate starch because the foundation of the theory behind it is:The London AS / Low Starch Diet was created by Dr. Alan Ebringer, a London-based rheumatologist and researcher who believes that klebsiella bacteria in the gut of people with ankylosing spondylitis (AS) are involved in triggering the disease process via a complex immune response.
It's just starch that's at issue with this protocol, and not all people who try it see relief.
A further note: While you many not have ankylosing spondylitis, I know you mentioned that you tested positive for HLA-B27, and AS is one of the conditions associated with it. I just pulled that quote from a site for people with AS.
Yes, that's correct. I have undifferentiated spondylitis and probably reactive arthritis (harder to diagnose because it comes and goes and by the time you can get in to be seen after a flare it has subsided). What bothers me most is spinal and costochondritis (inflammation of cartilage in the chest wall). I am HLA-B27 positive. There are more recent papers and studies at pubmed; it is no longer a fringe theory. But the diet doesn't help everyone. I know it won't fix the joints where there have been injuries or where it is plain old osteo.
Following up; I was rushed before...
Dr Ebringer is still the leading voice, but his more recent articles (this one was co-authored in 2011) are a bit more hard evidence based than his early work. In other words, they have been counting a lot of microbes in a lot of poop and correlating it with active inflammation and remission. They have also proven that the presence of microbes can be greatly affected by the presence or absence of starch in the diet. But most of the evidence that you can link those together and get good results is anecdotal or self reported.
I have to admit that part of me is hopeful; it has little to no effect so I can go back to eating starch. It may be too late (I am late 50s). It is questionable as to whether the primary source of my low back pain at this point is active inflammation or the effects of years of largely unchecked (other than using NSAIDs) degeneration due to inflammation. The costochondritis is almost certainly active inflammation.0 -
It's worth a shot. Regardless, I'm not sure that you need to worry about sugar since vegetables and fruit are okay on the protocol.0
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I have discovered riced cauliflower. How did I not know about this before strictly as a low calorie food? It works to fill that spot on the plate, tastes good and is easy to flavor.
The starch replacements are so low calorie that I need those sugar bombs to get up to a reasonable calorie total. I don't eat mammal meat and fish and poultry just doesn't have much in the way of calories. My local grocery store had some ripe bartlett pears; about 6 oz and 100 calories each. The kids are foiling any attempt to stockpile them though. It's weird to be dieting and having to figure out how to get enough calories.0 -
You don't eat red meat - could we ask why? Are there more foods you don't eat? You can cut out one of the basic food groups with no ill effect, but you're making eating and nutrition really difficult for yourself. If there's something you absolutely can't eat, you have to 1) eat more of what you can eat and 2) a wider range of what you can eat.0
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kommodevaran wrote: »You don't eat red meat - could we ask why? Are there more foods you don't eat? You can cut out one of the basic food groups with no ill effect, but you're making eating and nutrition really difficult for yourself. If there's something you absolutely can't eat, you have to 1) eat more of what you can eat and 2) a wider range of what you can eat.
Red meat is too resource intensive and I prefer not to eat animals that are somewhat intelligent and will readily bond with humans. I have less concerns with poultry and seafood; some concerns but less of them. I do eat dairy; those cattle only survive because they have jobs (yeah, that's a rationalization).
Starches and mammal meat are the only things on my "absolutely not" list (though very low starch content is okay). Stach is on the list until I give the diet a legit chance to see if it reduces my inflammation and pain.3 -
CarvedTones wrote: »I have discovered riced cauliflower. How did I not know about this before strictly as a low calorie food? It works to fill that spot on the plate, tastes good and is easy to flavor.
The starch replacements are so low calorie that I need those sugar bombs to get up to a reasonable calorie total. I don't eat mammal meat and fish and poultry just doesn't have much in the way of calories. My local grocery store had some ripe bartlett pears; about 6 oz and 100 calories each. The kids are foiling any attempt to stockpile them though. It's weird to be dieting and having to figure out how to get enough calories.
Thus, why I recommended avocado and olives. Fat has lots of good calories.
Check with the doc before replacing starch with sugar bombs.
Best of luck.0 -
You could look in some high-fat-low-carbs diet cookbooks for inspiration. This is where you could have found a riced cauliflower recipe so there might be others that are suitable. Paleo diet cookbooks might have some suggestions too. I'm about to try 'zoodles' which are zucchini noodles made with a spiralizer.
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You could look in some high-fat-low-carbs diet cookbooks for inspiration. This is where you could have found a riced cauliflower recipe so there might be others that are suitable. Paleo diet cookbooks might have some suggestions too. I'm about to try 'zoodles' which are zucchini noodles made with a spiralizer.
I put a spiralizer in my wish list. Avocados and olives are good. The other simple thing that occurred to me is salad dressing. I usually flavor the chicken or fish and don't add dressing.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I have discovered riced cauliflower. How did I not know about this before strictly as a low calorie food? It works to fill that spot on the plate, tastes good and is easy to flavor.
The starch replacements are so low calorie that I need those sugar bombs to get up to a reasonable calorie total. I don't eat mammal meat and fish and poultry just doesn't have much in the way of calories. My local grocery store had some ripe bartlett pears; about 6 oz and 100 calories each. The kids are foiling any attempt to stockpile them though. It's weird to be dieting and having to figure out how to get enough calories.
Thus, why I recommended avocado and olives. Fat has lots of good calories.
Check with the doc before replacing starch with sugar bombs.
Best of luck.
He's talking about fruit.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I have discovered riced cauliflower. How did I not know about this before strictly as a low calorie food? It works to fill that spot on the plate, tastes good and is easy to flavor.
The starch replacements are so low calorie that I need those sugar bombs to get up to a reasonable calorie total. I don't eat mammal meat and fish and poultry just doesn't have much in the way of calories. My local grocery store had some ripe bartlett pears; about 6 oz and 100 calories each. The kids are foiling any attempt to stockpile them though. It's weird to be dieting and having to figure out how to get enough calories.
Thus, why I recommended avocado and olives. Fat has lots of good calories.
Check with the doc before replacing starch with sugar bombs.
Best of luck.
He's talking about fruit.
And while he's talking about fruit, if he needs to up his calories, something nice might be to make a dip out of one of your favorite treats, lemurcat, nutbutter mixed into Greek yogurt.
That would fit his dietary parameters and up his calories.0 -
Yep, I think that's a great idea (but I would). ;-)0
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Ignore the sugar warning. You are going ultra low starch so you have to get your carbs from somewhere. That leaves sugar. The WHO guidelines are chiefly to avoid tooth decay so if you eat extra fruit to compensate brush your teeth afterwards.
I find if I pair my fruit with cheese, nuts, or nut butter it leaves me more satisfied.
There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
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Ignore the sugar warning. You are going ultra low starch so you have to get your carbs from somewhere. That leaves sugar. The WHO guidelines are chiefly to avoid tooth decay so if you eat extra fruit to compensate brush your teeth afterwards.
I find if I pair my fruit with cheese, nuts, or nut butter it leaves me more satisfied.
Not if it's acidic fruit. Better to have a glass of water and wait a bit, otherwise you're scrubbing away at your enamel when it's at its softest state.0 -
One issue I am having with using fruit to step up calories is that I think the sugar makes me sweet hungry. I haven't really had a problem with that until recently. I may have to try the nut butter and yogurt dip. I just cut some jicama sticks yesterday.0
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Even just nut butter mixed in greek yogurt (not as a dip) is a delicious dessert and only a little sweet, if you want something less sweet.0
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I picked up a quick salad at the store and on impulse bought a papaya and ate the whole thing at around 200 calories. I still could end up searching for calories later though. I am cooking turkey tenderloin for dinner, which only has 100 in 4 oz, with broccoli as the side. I need to make turnips au gratin but I only have one small turnip and don't really have much prep time tonight.0
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Where is the fat? Even a tablespoon of olive oil over some roasted veggies will help a lot.0
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Where is the fat? Even a tablespoon of olive oil over some roasted veggies will help a lot.
I was just looking for a quick alternative for the one little turnip and sauteing in olive oil looks like a possibility. I do need more fat; I only had 9 grams yesterday. My wife got me fat free yogurt because I forgot to write the explicit whole milk Greek yogurt on the list. So I have to suffer through that for a couple of more days. The almond butter is a good source of fat also. I have taken it like cough medicine a couple of nights. I should have last night.0 -
Put nuts or seeds on a salad or in a veggie dish, use olive oil on a dressing or for cooking, add olives, think about fatty fish as an option (smoked salmon is delicious) use full fat greek yogurt and try it with the nut butter (which is delicious -- you thinking of it like medicine makes me sad, it's a dessert!).
Just some ideas, and I'm not against fruit, but you now seem to want some alternatives and 9 g is crazy low for fat.0 -
I usually use full fat Greek. I had a little miscommunication a couple of nights ago and got 4 days worth (I have 8 oz every morning) of fat free. That's one reason why yesterday's fat number was so low. The other meals wear baked pollock and chicken tenderloins. I was going to have some nut butter last night but I either forgot or I have an eating disorder I need to push through...0
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