Fasting on Keto - first time to fast.
Replies
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It doesn't matter what diet you're on, you will get hungry while fasting. I am on the keto diet myself and because of the nature of the diet I can sometimes go until later in the day without feeling so much as a ping of hunger but let me just say that is not a common occurrence. I am normally mildly hungry by 10am-12pm and I have to push myself to continue the fast. Its normal.1
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I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV4 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I don't think you have to "train" your body to use ketones. It knows how to do it. If it didn't, the human probably wouldn't have survived.11 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
We agree, and just to be clear I'm not anti keto at all. I just also think protein is just more important than ever when doing keto and that sources that say you should worry about keeping protein low (or not too high) because of ketosis (which I think are all too common) are often counter-productive -- on a deficit you aren't going to get kicked out of ketosis because you do .8-1 g per lb of LBM, say, of protein.3 -
I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
I find habit determines if I get hungry for short term "fasting" (missing meals).
For a period in my late teens/early 20s I often did what would now be called IFing -- no breakfast or lunch, afternoon snack plus dinner only -- and was never hungry, since that was my habit. I didn't eat low carb during that period, probably higher carb than at any time of my life.
I skipped breakfast for a longer period and ate lunch (and dinner) late. Then I went to my current pattern, which involves often running before breakfast and usually a long break between lunch (12) and dinner (9), which isn't 12 hours, but also I'm not hungry at all, because it's my pattern.
I fast for 36 hours sometimes (religious reasons), and do get hungry, but not crazy hungry. I found this was easier when I was eating better, but that wasn't low carb (I wasn't low carb necessarily), but not being in the habit of eating constantly (a bad habit I was in for a while) or stuffing feelings with food in general.
People with blood sugar issues may be different, but not doing low carb doesn't mean eating at a normal schedule is going to be an issue or IFing will be or a day's fast.
Agree with you that in any case hunger if you don't eat for a day is normal, of course. (I think hunger before meals is normal too, and one issue today is that people think hunger is somehow a problem that must be addressed -- like the idea that it means you are eating muscle and storing fat or whatever.)2 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
Either your "coaches" don't understand the basics, or perhaps they do and are misrepresenting a ton of things, or you are misunderstanding them. Yes, the body makes up energy deficits from fat stores if dietary needs are lacking, this is basic CICO (calories in calories out) -- yet we get so many arguments about that one. Your body is always burning fat and always using both catabolism and anabolism, those are the two major components of metabolism. You aren't training your body to use keto bodies you are adapting to using them for their primary energy source rather than glucose, which is the normal primary energy source. Your body is always undergoing gluconeogenesis. Again so much misunderstanding here.
You are always, burning more fat than glucose unless you are in a fed state where glucose levels are elevated and your body is working to restore homeostasis by utilizing more glucose for fuel and also storing it as glycogen in the muscle, or when doing high intensity work that requires a higher oxidation rate than fat can provide. You are always burning both fat and carbs for energy and predominantly fat most of the time.
Yes, keto works for weight loss, but no it's not magic and you aren't going from a carb burning machine to a fat burning machine or whatever else they might be claiming in the ad copy. You are just finding a way to achieve a caloric deficit that might work better for you if it helps control hunger and overeating.10 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I don't think you have to "train" your body to use ketones. It knows how to do it. If it didn't, the human probably wouldn't have survived.
No, your body already uses ketones regularly, like when you sleep.4 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I'm familiar with Dom and his approach to keto, specifically as it relates to his cancer research. Even when asked, he's not going to deny biochemistry or thermodynamics.
When in an energy deficit, the body will down regulate hormonal response to adjust for that.. because you're in a deficit. In the absence of dietary carbs, liver glycogen depletes and the ratio of oxaloacetate to acetyl coA is what determines the production of ketones from free fatty acids. Regardless of the absence of exogenous glucose, gluconeogenesis occurs all the time. It doesn't stop because if you don't have any glucose circulating through your body, you die. So without carbs and even with a high circulation of ketone bodies, that will not stop GNG from happening. As a matter of fact ketogenic diets are actually less lbm sparing when compared to higher carb diets.
All fat adaptation means is that you've restricted your tissue to adapt to a substitute fuel source, which are the increased circulating free fatty acids, to spare the glucose (made by GNG that will come from both fat and muscle or organ tissue if no dietary protein is coming in) for the brain.
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
I saw this after my reply to the same post. You covered many of the same points. It's a shame that things get misrepresented like this when the biology is very well known. It's also interesting that I've seen on many keto sites that they even mention that glucose levels are stable yet people get the idea that GNG only occurs if you aren't keto adapted or something like that.5 -
I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
Small point of order based on personal experience and what I've seen from other posters' experience:
The ability to IF for long stretches is not limited to people eating keto and not down to BG levels and carbohydrate intake.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
We agree, and just to be clear I'm not anti keto at all. I just also think protein is just more important than ever when doing keto and that sources that say you should worry about keeping protein low (or not too high) because of ketosis (which I think are all too common) are often counter-productive -- on a deficit you aren't going to get kicked out of ketosis because you do .8-1 g per lb of LBM, say, of protein.
Even if you did, proper amounts of protein > ketosis4 -
HappieZombie wrote: »So I'm running low on food at the house (and money) so last night I decided to fast. I ate dinner last night around 8pm and haven't had any food or drinks (besides water) since (it's now 4:00pm).. Last nights dinner was pretty fatty but i don't think it was enough. My tummy was growling earlier this morning but once i started drinking water and moving the hunger subsided. Now that it's 4pm i feel like I'm not totally starving but my tummy growls and i know I'm hungry... Is this normal for first timers to still feel a bit hungry through out the day while fasting on keto?
Yes, that's perfectly normal - you should feel hunger but not be continuously hungry or feel sick or debilitated. Everyone who's metabolically healthy/flexible responds the same way - shifting seamlessly from a fed to fasted state - keto isn't required for that.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
Affirmative.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
Small point of order based on personal experience and what I've seen from other posters' experience:
The ability to IF for long stretches is not limited to people eating keto and not down to BG levels and carbohydrate intake.
I absolutely could not IF much on keto. I could do it one day as a one off...subsequent days, lives were in jeopardy. "Hangry" as a descriptor wasn't severe enough a term.3 -
HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?1 -
It is normal on your first day of fasting simply because your body is expecting food. Eat a large fatty meal tonight and fast through tomorrow and you shouldnt have any issues. But I believe it to be more that the body isn't expecting it. However longer fast consist of hunger pains coming and going not lasting more than about 10min.0
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aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.0 -
aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
So.... Have a beverage that breaks the fast?2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.
A low enough calorie deficit will induce ketosis regardless of the macronutrient composition. Though, in terms of sparing as much lbm as possible, adequate protein is going to be necessary in a severe caloric restriction. And I believe I've exhausted most reasons for why protein is beneficial in a catabolic state, though I'm not seeing the correlation between protein consumption and including significant amounts of carbs. They're two different macros with different sources, unless you're following a plant based diet.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.
A low enough calorie deficit will induce ketosis regardless of the macronutrient composition. Though, in terms of sparing as much lbm as possible, adequate protein is going to be necessary in a severe caloric restriction. And I believe I've exhausted most reasons for why protein is beneficial in a catabolic state, though I'm not seeing the correlation between protein consumption and including significant amounts of carbs. They're two different macros with different sources, unless you're following a plant based diet.
I agree that protein is important and especially important for dieters. I was responding to your point that increased protein may be responsible for the appetite suppressing effects of ketogenic diets. I don't believe that to be true.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.
A low enough calorie deficit will induce ketosis regardless of the macronutrient composition. Though, in terms of sparing as much lbm as possible, adequate protein is going to be necessary in a severe caloric restriction. And I believe I've exhausted most reasons for why protein is beneficial in a catabolic state, though I'm not seeing the correlation between protein consumption and including significant amounts of carbs. They're two different macros with different sources, unless you're following a plant based diet.
I agree that protein is important and especially important for dieters. I was responding to your point that increased protein may be responsible for the appetite suppressing effects of ketogenic diets. I don't believe that to be true.
"May" and "might" is permissive by virtue of grammar to allow for variance and possibility, so while it may/might be responsible, it also might not be applicable to all people. You're entitled to believe what applies to you, and if it works, then great. The overarching point I was attempting to make was that for fat loss as the primary goal, ketones are just a byproduct of a low carb/ketogenic diet and that based on satiety studies and indices, protein (and a few carbs) tend to produce a higher rate of satiety when people switch to those diets. Whatever helps to remain adherent to an energy deficit is up to the dieter. And the original premise of this thread is that fasting is supposed to blunt hunger for whatever reason, but when hunger is apparent it's a signal that adherence is likely going to be minimal.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.
I think it varies by person.
I do think ketosis is helpful in blunting hunger for some, and would recommend trying it for someone always hungry and not benefiting from other usual remedies.
I think increased protein helps for others, and is in fact a common way that the diet changes for many who start keto, especially adding protein in the morning.
I think others cut out foods that are not satiating, so eat less without more hunger.
And I think for others fat is satiating.
I'm maybe weird in that fat is NOT satiating for me -- a meal of just fat does nothing for me, or even a high fat meal with protein, little fiber, like bacon and eggs. However, adding in more fat is SATISFYING for me, so I am more likely to not want to eat lots of extra food with a diet that includes what I find satiating (some protein, fiber) and what I find satisfying (some volume -- veggies will do it -- and some fat).
For this reason low carb is extremely filling for me, and satisfying, although I didn't find that ketosis made a difference and I think it wouldn't work as well if I hadn't always combined it with higher protein (100+ g, nothing super high).1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aniadaydecka wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think it may depend on how deep in ketosis ur body is, if you are fat adapted as they say..
How long until more food? Have u tried beverages? Like bulletproof coffee or hot chocolate?
That wouldn't be fasting any more, would it?
Nope. It wouldn't. Interruption of a non-caloric intake period with the consumption of calories breaks a fast, so the weird misconception that doing a "fat fast" (chock full of calories) as to not stimulate insulin has always been a concept I've never been able to comprehend.
Since this was a reminder on ketogains, I may as well drop this link here for reasons why a non-therapeutic ketogenic diet might be hunger blunting. Spoiler: it might be the increased protein intake rather than the presence of ketones.
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
I don't doubt that an increase in protein (and possibly improved diet quality in general) accounts for some of the benefits people experience eating a low carb diet but there is more going on, IME. When switching to a low carb diet I actually ended up eating less protein (and vegetables/fiber for that matter).
I'm not married to the idea that ketones in and of themselves are responsible (and think chasing ketones is stupid tbh) but I've experimented enough over the last 5 or 6 years to know it's not the protein. My carbs need to be low enough I'm in light ketosis at least part of the time to maintain the appetite effect - all the protein (and fat) in the world do nothing for me if I include significant amounts of carbohydrate in my diet.
I think it varies by person.
I do think ketosis is helpful in blunting hunger for some, and would recommend trying it for someone always hungry and not benefiting from other usual remedies.
I think increased protein helps for others, and is in fact a common way that the diet changes for many who start keto, especially adding protein in the morning.
I think others cut out foods that are not satiating, so eat less without more hunger.
And I think for others fat is satiating.
I'm maybe weird in that fat is NOT satiating for me -- a meal of just fat does nothing for me, or even a high fat meal with protein, little fiber, like bacon and eggs. However, adding in more fat is SATISFYING for me, so I am more likely to not want to eat lots of extra food with a diet that includes what I find satiating (some protein, fiber) and what I find satisfying (some volume -- veggies will do it -- and some fat).
For this reason low carb is extremely filling for me, and satisfying, although I didn't find that ketosis made a difference and I think it wouldn't work as well if I hadn't always combined it with higher protein (100+ g, nothing super high).
This is a poignant point to make. Fat makes things tasty which provides satisfaction from a subjective and psychological standpoint. Satiety is different in the fact that one is physiologically no longer hungry for a period of time, but that satiety can come from seafood, pork, eggs, endive, spinach, kale, berries, broccoli, etc.
The satiety index doesn't necessarily take flavor into account since that's going to be completely subjective per person, and at the same time, hyperpalatable foods make it easier to eat more of. Case in point, take a bodybuilder following a ketogenic diet to prep for a show, eating chicken breast, egg whites, broccoli or cauliflower rice, and some salt and pepper. That meal tastes like sadness, but he or she will be full since the volume of food might be quite large for relatively lower calories than their higher dietary fat counterparts, who may be eating ribeye steaks cooked in butter and garlic, whole eggs, and avocados. That may be very satiating as well as psychologically satisfying at the expense of a higher calorie content.
A person's goal is going to dictate how they approach their food variety.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
I find habit determines if I get hungry for short term "fasting" (missing meals).
For a period in my late teens/early 20s I often did what would now be called IFing -- no breakfast or lunch, afternoon snack plus dinner only -- and was never hungry, since that was my habit. I didn't eat low carb during that period, probably higher carb than at any time of my life.
I skipped breakfast for a longer period and ate lunch (and dinner) late. Then I went to my current pattern, which involves often running before breakfast and usually a long break between lunch (12) and dinner (9), which isn't 12 hours, but also I'm not hungry at all, because it's my pattern.
I fast for 36 hours sometimes (religious reasons), and do get hungry, but not crazy hungry. I found this was easier when I was eating better, but that wasn't low carb (I wasn't low carb necessarily), but not being in the habit of eating constantly (a bad habit I was in for a while) or stuffing feelings with food in general.
People with blood sugar issues may be different, but not doing low carb doesn't mean eating at a normal schedule is going to be an issue or IFing will be or a day's fast.
Agree with you that in any case hunger if you don't eat for a day is normal, of course. (I think hunger before meals is normal too, and one issue today is that people think hunger is somehow a problem that must be addressed -- like the idea that it means you are eating muscle and storing fat or whatever.)
I understand what you are saying but I don't think habit and hunger are the same. Hunger is a very empty stomach and possibly some stomach growling. A habit is wanting to eat because you usually eat a certain time.
I completely agree that the habit of when you eat may affect one's ability to fast. Expecting to eat does make it is harder to avoid eating. And not eating for a few days definitely results in hunger. Not constant hunger, but it will be there at times.AlabasterVerve wrote: »HappieZombie wrote: »So I'm running low on food at the house (and money) so last night I decided to fast. I ate dinner last night around 8pm and haven't had any food or drinks (besides water) since (it's now 4:00pm).. Last nights dinner was pretty fatty but i don't think it was enough. My tummy was growling earlier this morning but once i started drinking water and moving the hunger subsided. Now that it's 4pm i feel like I'm not totally starving but my tummy growls and i know I'm hungry... Is this normal for first timers to still feel a bit hungry through out the day while fasting on keto?
Yes, that's perfectly normal - you should feel hunger but not be continuously hungry or feel sick or debilitated. Everyone who's metabolically healthy/flexible responds the same way - shifting seamlessly from a fed to fasted state - keto isn't required for that.
I agree with this. People who are metabolically healthy and flexible should have no problem switching to a fasted state.
I think many long term keto'ers link keto to an easier of time of fasting because a fair number of people who stick with keto do so because they weren't metabolically healthy. So many use it to treat insulin resistance and related issues. I'm one of those. I could never have fasted as easily before going lchf. I had a hard enough time going 3 hours without eating. LOL
0 -
I think the approach of some people on these forums could be a bit more tactful to say the least! But to give you my opinion on this:HappieZombie wrote: »So I'm running low on food at the house (and money) so last night I decided to fast. I ate dinner last night around 8pm and haven't had any food or drinks (besides water) since (it's now 4:00pm).. Last nights dinner was pretty fatty but i don't think it was enough. My tummy was growling earlier this morning but once i started drinking water and moving the hunger subsided. Now that it's 4pm i feel like I'm not totally starving but my tummy growls and i know I'm hungry... Is this normal for first timers to still feel a bit hungry through out the day while fasting on keto?
If you're running low on money for food you might need to evaluate your purchases to ensure you're not wasting money on food items that don't give you very much for your dollar. You could even look to shop at Aldi to save some money on food.
A lot of people will experience hunger on the first part of a fast and after a while it will go away, sort of, and you get over it.
To remain healthy you need to take in sustenance on a daily basis, in my opinion. I do kind of fast every day but not because fasting is something magical but because it is what works for me. My day looks something like this:
Wake up drink coffee and water don't eat breakfast. Eat lunch around noon. Eat snacks and dinner the remainder of the day until I hit my calorie and macro goals (lifting weights to try an gain some lean mass). But there is absolutely nothing magical about the way I choose to eat, it just works for me personally.
I make sure to hit my calorie goal each day. Sometimes if I know I have something going on over the weekend I'll save a few hundred calories each day, or however many I need to, to have some extra calories for the occasion.
With what you've described I would be concerned with malnutrition and under eating. On a sort term period of time it isn't a huge deal but if it becomes a long term trend you may start to have nutritional issues come up and really impact your overall health. Being healthy isn't just about your weight its about body function and without the proper fuel and nutrition it isn't possible to remain healthy in the long term.1
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