Fasting on Keto - first time to fast.
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mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?4 -
I'm fairly new to this whole "keto thing" as well. I do occasionally IF, but what I've read is that the best way to do it is to eat dinner, then go ~12-18 hours before eating a MEAL again (usually a ratio 16:8 or 18:6 if you're more fat adapted). For example, I eat dinner at 6, and don't eat anything else before I go to sleep and sleep through the night, wake up and have a Keto (bullet proof) coffee with some fat in it, that will help me get through the morning. If I get hungry, I'll eat something small like a handful of almonds, a Babybel cheese or something. Then I eat all my meals in a designated window of time (usually 6-8 hours). So I'll "skip" breakfast, then eat lunch around noon and dinner around 6 (all in that 6-8 hour window). I don't think anything says you should starve yourself for almost 24 hours, that's never good for you. Most of the people that aren't "hungry" are probably fat adapted (have been doing Keto for a while), so their bodies can go longer without feeling starved, but I guarantee they are still "hungry". No one is going to say they "aren't hungry" after not eating for almost 24 hours. But I guess this is all IMO? Good luck, and I suggest eating something?3
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mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
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mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I'm familiar with Dom and his approach to keto, specifically as it relates to his cancer research. Even when asked, he's not going to deny biochemistry or thermodynamics.
When in an energy deficit, the body will down regulate hormonal response to adjust for that.. because you're in a deficit. In the absence of dietary carbs, liver glycogen depletes and the ratio of oxaloacetate to acetyl coA is what determines the production of ketones from free fatty acids. Regardless of the absence of exogenous glucose, gluconeogenesis occurs all the time. It doesn't stop because if you don't have any glucose circulating through your body, you die. So without carbs and even with a high circulation of ketone bodies, that will not stop GNG from happening. As a matter of fact ketogenic diets are actually less lbm sparing when compared to higher carb diets.
All fat adaptation means is that you've restricted your tissue to adapt to a substitute fuel source, which are the increased circulating free fatty acids, to spare the glucose (made by GNG that will come from both fat and muscle or organ tissue if no dietary protein is coming in) for the brain.
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.11 -
HappieZombie wrote: »I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all
I doubt it, but it's possible to get used to 36 hour fasting (or whatever it is you are doing) so it's not a big thing. Many people do shorter fasts, like 24 hours once a week or one meal a day (which is about 23 hours of fasting a day and then a HUGE meal), and get used to it and are not that hungry.
Longer fasts is currently in vogue among some aspects of the keto world (the Fung stuff), and is trendy generally, and I believe you often get less hungry, but that's because you have to be able to focus on finding food, not just feeling miserable, and it doesn't mean it's a good idea or won't cause overeating when you stop fasting.
I've done 36 hour fasts for religious reasons plenty of times and find it not miserable (but I am hungry, that's part of the point I think), and I think the idea that you wouldn't be is odd... and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it..
This is just nonsense; think about it. The idea that you can't lose if hungry makes no sense. Pretty sure people who lose weight due to lack of food are hungry (I believe even anorexics are often hungry).Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think when you get more used to doing something it's easier. One thing I've heard from people who do one meal a day or 5:2 (that's eating normally for 5 days and about 500 cal on the other two) is that you get to realize what real hunger feels like (vs. just wanting to eat) and also that it's not the end of the world. NOT that you are never hungry.
There is this keto mythology that if you do keto you burn fat so will never get hungry, but the truth is that EVERYONE burns fat, so doing keto doesn't change that. Training to become better fat adapted (which is about athletics) means that you will more efficiently be able to use fat for fuel while exercising at a slightly higher intensity; it can be useful for some endurance training. But it doesn't mean you will never get hungry again. (Nor does it mean that people who don't do keto aren't burning fat when they fast for a day or so, of course they are, and they likely are in ketosis too.)5 -
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/7 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I lost a lot of fat just by eating in a deficit. I cant do keto due to a health issue. I dont get hungry, my tiredness is not from my diet its from health issues, I have never become weak either from my calorie deficit. I also eat high carb,low fat,high fiber diet due to my health issue.I lost a lot of fat.I have a metabolic issue as well and had no issues losing fat. if you are burning nothing but body fat,then what happens when you are down to a normal amount of body fat? the fuel is coming from the high fat you are eating. body fat is lost in a deficit no matter how much you eat. I also fast 16:8 and dont lose anymore weight fasting than compared to non fasting.3 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
Read a physiology textbook geez. And your top "source" Dominic d'Agostino is a researcher for Pruvit which sells ketone supplements. Might wanna research the background and COI of these keto zealots8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
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It doesn't matter what diet you're on, you will get hungry while fasting. I am on the keto diet myself and because of the nature of the diet I can sometimes go until later in the day without feeling so much as a ping of hunger but let me just say that is not a common occurrence. I am normally mildly hungry by 10am-12pm and I have to push myself to continue the fast. Its normal.1
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I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV4 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I don't think you have to "train" your body to use ketones. It knows how to do it. If it didn't, the human probably wouldn't have survived.11 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
We agree, and just to be clear I'm not anti keto at all. I just also think protein is just more important than ever when doing keto and that sources that say you should worry about keeping protein low (or not too high) because of ketosis (which I think are all too common) are often counter-productive -- on a deficit you aren't going to get kicked out of ketosis because you do .8-1 g per lb of LBM, say, of protein.3 -
I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
I find habit determines if I get hungry for short term "fasting" (missing meals).
For a period in my late teens/early 20s I often did what would now be called IFing -- no breakfast or lunch, afternoon snack plus dinner only -- and was never hungry, since that was my habit. I didn't eat low carb during that period, probably higher carb than at any time of my life.
I skipped breakfast for a longer period and ate lunch (and dinner) late. Then I went to my current pattern, which involves often running before breakfast and usually a long break between lunch (12) and dinner (9), which isn't 12 hours, but also I'm not hungry at all, because it's my pattern.
I fast for 36 hours sometimes (religious reasons), and do get hungry, but not crazy hungry. I found this was easier when I was eating better, but that wasn't low carb (I wasn't low carb necessarily), but not being in the habit of eating constantly (a bad habit I was in for a while) or stuffing feelings with food in general.
People with blood sugar issues may be different, but not doing low carb doesn't mean eating at a normal schedule is going to be an issue or IFing will be or a day's fast.
Agree with you that in any case hunger if you don't eat for a day is normal, of course. (I think hunger before meals is normal too, and one issue today is that people think hunger is somehow a problem that must be addressed -- like the idea that it means you are eating muscle and storing fat or whatever.)2 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
Either your "coaches" don't understand the basics, or perhaps they do and are misrepresenting a ton of things, or you are misunderstanding them. Yes, the body makes up energy deficits from fat stores if dietary needs are lacking, this is basic CICO (calories in calories out) -- yet we get so many arguments about that one. Your body is always burning fat and always using both catabolism and anabolism, those are the two major components of metabolism. You aren't training your body to use keto bodies you are adapting to using them for their primary energy source rather than glucose, which is the normal primary energy source. Your body is always undergoing gluconeogenesis. Again so much misunderstanding here.
You are always, burning more fat than glucose unless you are in a fed state where glucose levels are elevated and your body is working to restore homeostasis by utilizing more glucose for fuel and also storing it as glycogen in the muscle, or when doing high intensity work that requires a higher oxidation rate than fat can provide. You are always burning both fat and carbs for energy and predominantly fat most of the time.
Yes, keto works for weight loss, but no it's not magic and you aren't going from a carb burning machine to a fat burning machine or whatever else they might be claiming in the ad copy. You are just finding a way to achieve a caloric deficit that might work better for you if it helps control hunger and overeating.10 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I don't think you have to "train" your body to use ketones. It knows how to do it. If it didn't, the human probably wouldn't have survived.
No, your body already uses ketones regularly, like when you sleep.4 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I'm familiar with Dom and his approach to keto, specifically as it relates to his cancer research. Even when asked, he's not going to deny biochemistry or thermodynamics.
When in an energy deficit, the body will down regulate hormonal response to adjust for that.. because you're in a deficit. In the absence of dietary carbs, liver glycogen depletes and the ratio of oxaloacetate to acetyl coA is what determines the production of ketones from free fatty acids. Regardless of the absence of exogenous glucose, gluconeogenesis occurs all the time. It doesn't stop because if you don't have any glucose circulating through your body, you die. So without carbs and even with a high circulation of ketone bodies, that will not stop GNG from happening. As a matter of fact ketogenic diets are actually less lbm sparing when compared to higher carb diets.
All fat adaptation means is that you've restricted your tissue to adapt to a substitute fuel source, which are the increased circulating free fatty acids, to spare the glucose (made by GNG that will come from both fat and muscle or organ tissue if no dietary protein is coming in) for the brain.
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
I saw this after my reply to the same post. You covered many of the same points. It's a shame that things get misrepresented like this when the biology is very well known. It's also interesting that I've seen on many keto sites that they even mention that glucose levels are stable yet people get the idea that GNG only occurs if you aren't keto adapted or something like that.5 -
I think keto'ers, especially those who are fat adapted or over a month or two into the diet, find fasting a bit easier because they are at a stable BG that is less reliant on glucose coming in every few hours. Fat and ketones are the usual fuel so if that fuel is reduced (eat nothing) the body may find using body fuel (fat and muscle) a bit easier to access.
I usually have at least a 12 hour gap between meals now because I am not often hungry until early afternoon. When I was dealing with blood glucose swings from a higher carb diet, there was a more pressing need to eat more frequently.
I have fasted for a few days before. I got hungry. I just did not get a headache, shakes or hangry like I may have if I was more carb dependent.
YMMV
Small point of order based on personal experience and what I've seen from other posters' experience:
The ability to IF for long stretches is not limited to people eating keto and not down to BG levels and carbohydrate intake.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
We agree, and just to be clear I'm not anti keto at all. I just also think protein is just more important than ever when doing keto and that sources that say you should worry about keeping protein low (or not too high) because of ketosis (which I think are all too common) are often counter-productive -- on a deficit you aren't going to get kicked out of ketosis because you do .8-1 g per lb of LBM, say, of protein.
Even if you did, proper amounts of protein > ketosis4
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