Fasting on Keto - first time to fast.
HappieZombie
Posts: 15 Member
So I'm running low on food at the house (and money) so last night I decided to fast. I ate dinner last night around 8pm and haven't had any food or drinks (besides water) since (it's now 4:00pm).. Last nights dinner was pretty fatty but i don't think it was enough. My tummy was growling earlier this morning but once i started drinking water and moving the hunger subsided. Now that it's 4pm i feel like I'm not totally starving but my tummy growls and i know I'm hungry... Is this normal for first timers to still feel a bit hungry through out the day while fasting on keto?
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Why wouldn't you feel hungry? You're fasting...9
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I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...10
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I don't understand how being keto (which involves eating food) would make you not hungry when you're not eating food? I know that people say that they don't get hungry while on keto, but that's because a lot of people find fat satiating, and keto is high fat. But a 20 hour fast isn't high fat - It's no fat. You'll have processed everything you ate yesterday, so it's natural for you to be hungry.11
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HappieZombie wrote: »I don't know dude... I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all.. and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it.. I just want to make sure I'm feeling things right since it's my first time doing all this. Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
Not true in the least.
If you are fasting, you will lose fat and plenty of muscle. Hair will eventually start to fall out the more you malnourish yourself. Unfortunately many people here find this out the hard way.
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Wow.. well.. now i remember why i don't post to forums. Everyone's an *kitten* on the internet. Oh well I'll do this myself thanks.24
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And for f sakes I'm down to a weight i haven't weighed in years because I started keto or lchf whatever the hell you want to call it. So if it's working for me then damn straight I'm going to get in on that band wagon.20
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You're correct that fasting would oxidize fat, putting you into a state of ketosis, but you also oxidize muscle putting you into a state of muscle wasting.
If you want to "do keto" correctly, I would highly recommend that you don't follow the advice of something that sounds absurd, like starving yourself or putting butter and coconut oil in everything.
Ask yourself why you looked into keto in the first place. Is it because you want to lose fat? A calorie deficit will do that. Any diet can create a calorie deficit. Certainly starving yourself is the ultimate calorie deficit, but for the reasons I already mentioned, it's not logically sound to waste away.
Even the most advanced keto practitioners can be so far up their own *kitten* that they completely ignore the basic rule of nutrition, and that's to eat in such a way that optimizes your health, not deteriorates it.
Keto is like the polar opposite of veganism. Both diets restrict macronutrients and both ignore the importance of protein.. I'll even argue that some vegans are better at getting more protein than keto dieters.
Look at the type of people that are used as examples to both inspire and demotivate society: physique athletes and fitness models. I can guarantee that they put protein as a priority in their nutrition and follow a regimented plan to either build muscle and/or lose fat. They also have the highest prevalence of body image disorders. It's a sad consequence but it happens.
You're hungry because you're not eating. That's a sign to eat. Just don't eat a bunch of crap food - and both keto and vegans have crap food too that are designed to be tasty and lacking in micronutrients so you end up eating more.
You don't have to "eat clean" but certainly make nutrient dense food the majority of your diet like 80% and you can eat whatever else you want for the remaining 20%.12 -
I'm sorry, I just don't get why eating a high fat day yesterday would make you not hungry almost 24 hours later.7
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Alatariel75 wrote: »I'm sorry, I just don't get why eating a high fat day yesterday would make you not hungry almost 24 hours later.
It's the petarded keto ideology that "fat is satiating" and to "eat fat to satiety." All it does is make you not trust a fart and make your sweat smell like butter.23 -
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Alatariel75 wrote: »I'm sorry, I just don't get why eating a high fat day yesterday would make you not hungry almost 24 hours later.
It's the petarded keto ideology that "fat is satiating" and to "eat fat to satiety." All it does is make you not trust a fart and make your sweat smell like butter.
Oh, I get that fat is satiating to some people, but there's a difference between "I don't snack because fat is satiating" and "I can go a day without eating and not even feel hungry, because I ate high fat yesterday". That's what I don't get.8 -
You'll resemble a zombie if you keep up fasting that way.7
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As Alan Aragon said, "There is nothing anabolic about not eating".9
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Alatariel75 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I'm sorry, I just don't get why eating a high fat day yesterday would make you not hungry almost 24 hours later.
It's the petarded keto ideology that "fat is satiating" and to "eat fat to satiety." All it does is make you not trust a fart and make your sweat smell like butter.
Oh, I get that fat is satiating to some people, but there's a difference between "I don't snack because fat is satiating" and "I can go a day without eating and not even feel hungry, because I ate high fat yesterday". That's what I don't get.
Ah, it's the magic spell that keto dieters say when they want to claim that ketones are all the fuel they need and that fat adapted states of metabolism are the perfect fuel.
Granted, there is some spontaneous reduction in appetite when people begin a ketogenic diet, and there's *some* merit to that claim (probably due to the higher protein content when carbs are removed from the diet), however, more often than not, it's temporary and anyone who has been long term ketogenic may have actually trained ghrelin to respond at certain times of the day (studies shown that ghrelin can be trained in animals and humans).
But the blanket term "I ate high fat yesterday = don't need to eat the day after" is agreeably an uncomfortable stretch to say that it's supposed to be true. There's no literature that supports that statement but like the OP, everyone likes to use their n=1 anecdote to make it true.5 -
Like I said.. I'm new to this whole thing so i don't understand why I'm getting flack for asking a question.. my bad for not knowing everything yet and trying to learn. Thanks for the input though from some of you... I'll look into it as I'm serious about eating better. I've got 32 years of wrong to right and I only started Jan 2. Wouldn't some of you think that maybe to change someone's outlook on something you'd approach the situation with a little more ease and not so much hate? I'm perfectly fine with being told about something that could be wrong with what I'm doing in a much nicer manner.9
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When you say "fasting," are you talking about a structured, planned intermittent fasting plan in which you eat an appropriate number of calories within a defined window of time, or are you just deciding not to eat today? The former is a better plan than the latter.
You can practice IF while also eating keto, but the two aren't linked. Also, there's nothing automatically more beneficial about either plan (or both) than any other way of eating. Some people find that keto or IF improves their experience of hunger, whereas other people find that those ways of eating make them more hungry.
If you're interested in learning more about keto, I highly recommend you check our our keto groups:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/1143-keto
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/1494-reddit-keto
I'd also highly recommend you do some more research into IF before committing to it. It's really not just "not eating;" that's unhealthy and nobody here recommends that you just stop eating.
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I'm sorry if you thought I was hateful. I was simply confused as to the idea that it is somehow wrong, or not usual, to be hungry after not eating for a day.5
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I didn't see any "hate" in the first three responses to you. One was a question, two addressed the issue in a non-confrontational manner. The only "hate" I saw was in your subsequent response:HappieZombie wrote: »Like I said.. I'm new to this whole thing so i don't understand why I'm getting flack for asking a question.. my bad for not knowing everything yet and trying to learn. Thanks for the input though from some of you... I'll look into it as I'm serious about eating better. I've got 32 years of wrong to right and I only started Jan 2. Wouldn't some of you think that maybe to change someone's outlook on something you'd approach the situation with a little more ease and not so much hate? I'm perfectly fine with being told about something that could be wrong with what I'm doing in a much nicer manner.
You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.HappieZombie wrote: »Wow.. well.. now i remember why i don't post to forums. Everyone's an *kitten* on the internet. Oh well I'll do this myself thanks.
As to the original question, some people find keto more satiating, some don't. The "magic" of keto is highly overstated and much of it is fantasy and not backed by actual science. There's nothing at all abnormal about feeling hungry after fasting for 16 hours, keto or not.8 -
How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.23
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HappieZombie wrote: »And for f sakes I'm down to a weight i haven't weighed in years because I started keto or lchf whatever the hell you want to call it. So if it's working for me then damn straight I'm going to get in on that band wagon.
Eating fewer calories helps you lose weight (carbs have nothing to do with it). Moderate paced weight loss helps you target body fat.
Eating very low calorie (fasting, keto, low fat or whatever)......helps you lose weight too, but the problem is a larger % of that weight will be lean muscle mass.
Eat however you like and whenever you like, but make sure you are meeting your calorie goals. Neither fasting or keto are muscle sparing when your overall calories are too low for too long.
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mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?4 -
I'm fairly new to this whole "keto thing" as well. I do occasionally IF, but what I've read is that the best way to do it is to eat dinner, then go ~12-18 hours before eating a MEAL again (usually a ratio 16:8 or 18:6 if you're more fat adapted). For example, I eat dinner at 6, and don't eat anything else before I go to sleep and sleep through the night, wake up and have a Keto (bullet proof) coffee with some fat in it, that will help me get through the morning. If I get hungry, I'll eat something small like a handful of almonds, a Babybel cheese or something. Then I eat all my meals in a designated window of time (usually 6-8 hours). So I'll "skip" breakfast, then eat lunch around noon and dinner around 6 (all in that 6-8 hour window). I don't think anything says you should starve yourself for almost 24 hours, that's never good for you. Most of the people that aren't "hungry" are probably fat adapted (have been doing Keto for a while), so their bodies can go longer without feeling starved, but I guarantee they are still "hungry". No one is going to say they "aren't hungry" after not eating for almost 24 hours. But I guess this is all IMO? Good luck, and I suggest eating something?3
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mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
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mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I'm familiar with Dom and his approach to keto, specifically as it relates to his cancer research. Even when asked, he's not going to deny biochemistry or thermodynamics.
When in an energy deficit, the body will down regulate hormonal response to adjust for that.. because you're in a deficit. In the absence of dietary carbs, liver glycogen depletes and the ratio of oxaloacetate to acetyl coA is what determines the production of ketones from free fatty acids. Regardless of the absence of exogenous glucose, gluconeogenesis occurs all the time. It doesn't stop because if you don't have any glucose circulating through your body, you die. So without carbs and even with a high circulation of ketone bodies, that will not stop GNG from happening. As a matter of fact ketogenic diets are actually less lbm sparing when compared to higher carb diets.
All fat adaptation means is that you've restricted your tissue to adapt to a substitute fuel source, which are the increased circulating free fatty acids, to spare the glucose (made by GNG that will come from both fat and muscle or organ tissue if no dietary protein is coming in) for the brain.
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.11 -
HappieZombie wrote: »I've read that most who've been doing it don't feel hungry at all
I doubt it, but it's possible to get used to 36 hour fasting (or whatever it is you are doing) so it's not a big thing. Many people do shorter fasts, like 24 hours once a week or one meal a day (which is about 23 hours of fasting a day and then a HUGE meal), and get used to it and are not that hungry.
Longer fasts is currently in vogue among some aspects of the keto world (the Fung stuff), and is trendy generally, and I believe you often get less hungry, but that's because you have to be able to focus on finding food, not just feeling miserable, and it doesn't mean it's a good idea or won't cause overeating when you stop fasting.
I've done 36 hour fasts for religious reasons plenty of times and find it not miserable (but I am hungry, that's part of the point I think), and I think the idea that you wouldn't be is odd... and I've been taught that if your pretty much starving yourself of food and your stomach is growling with hunger, your body just holds onto the fat instead of burning it..
This is just nonsense; think about it. The idea that you can't lose if hungry makes no sense. Pretty sure people who lose weight due to lack of food are hungry (I believe even anorexics are often hungry).Pretty much is this normal for beginners as the more advanced Keto/fasting users seem to not feel hungry at all when fasting? Am i doing something wrong hell i don't know that's why I'm asking...
I think when you get more used to doing something it's easier. One thing I've heard from people who do one meal a day or 5:2 (that's eating normally for 5 days and about 500 cal on the other two) is that you get to realize what real hunger feels like (vs. just wanting to eat) and also that it's not the end of the world. NOT that you are never hungry.
There is this keto mythology that if you do keto you burn fat so will never get hungry, but the truth is that EVERYONE burns fat, so doing keto doesn't change that. Training to become better fat adapted (which is about athletics) means that you will more efficiently be able to use fat for fuel while exercising at a slightly higher intensity; it can be useful for some endurance training. But it doesn't mean you will never get hungry again. (Nor does it mean that people who don't do keto aren't burning fat when they fast for a day or so, of course they are, and they likely are in ketosis too.)5 -
There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/7 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
I lost a lot of fat just by eating in a deficit. I cant do keto due to a health issue. I dont get hungry, my tiredness is not from my diet its from health issues, I have never become weak either from my calorie deficit. I also eat high carb,low fat,high fiber diet due to my health issue.I lost a lot of fat.I have a metabolic issue as well and had no issues losing fat. if you are burning nothing but body fat,then what happens when you are down to a normal amount of body fat? the fuel is coming from the high fat you are eating. body fat is lost in a deficit no matter how much you eat. I also fast 16:8 and dont lose anymore weight fasting than compared to non fasting.3 -
mrsbigmack wrote: »mrsbigmack wrote: »How long have you been keto? Are you fat adapted? If not, you'll be just starving yourself. If you're truly fat adapted, fasting will cause the burning of adipose tissue. If not, you'll be catabolic, hungry and feeling like you're fasting.
Can you explain how fasting is anti-catabolic when you're fat adapted?
My understanding from top sources - like Dominic d'Agostino - and others who are coaching keto eating is that when technically in a caloric deficit, the body isn't really in a deficit state in the sense that it can make up all the energy it needs from breaking down body fat into ketones. On a normal diet, the body is very inefficient at burning fat so in a deficit you get hungry, weak, tired and catabolic as the body tries to create glucose through gluconeogenesis. When you're fat adapted - i.e. you've trained your body to actually use the energy from ketones alone all the time - you are able to burn all the body fat you need to sustain lean mass much more effectively.
I'm not a scientist and I won't bother spending my life on the internet looking for the studies. The best source for information is right here, though: https://ketonutrition.org/about-1 - his publications are listed.
Read a physiology textbook geez. And your top "source" Dominic d'Agostino is a researcher for Pruvit which sells ketone supplements. Might wanna research the background and COI of these keto zealots8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There's no evidence that keto actually sustains lean mass more effectively, even in long term keto dieters. When compared to other diets, matched for calories and protein, there is no difference or advantage to a ketogenic diet.
Actually, what I've seen -- from keto-friendly sources -- is that you need MORE protein when doing keto, because it tends to be more catabolic.
http://caloriesproper.com/muscle-growth-sans-carbs/
http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/
I may have linked these same exact articles in the low carb group. Supplemented with this
http://sci-fit.net/2017/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
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