Losing weight for the 1st time vs. "yo-yo dieting"
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oat_bran
Posts: 370 Member
Does anyone know - from studies or from personal experience - if it's common to lose weight more easily the first time one starts to eat in a deficit compared to gaining it back and trying to lose again multiple times ? I'm talking especially in term of hunger levels. Do hunger levels really increase the more times we experience prolonged caloric deficit?
I've never been underweight, but I had disordered eating from a young age and struggled with bulimia in my teens and early adulthood. After I mostly stopped purging, I still continued the cycle of caloric deficit with short periods of binging/overeating for several years. Now, that I've been in recovery I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me. I often find that even when I eat at maintenance or slightly over, I still feel excessively hungry (I made lots of threadsa about this already(. Because of this, not only have I not been able to lose any weight in the last couple of years, I am actually gaining and am nearing the "overweight" range. I find that I almost inevitably eat over my TDEE unless I make a conscious effort to restrict my intake.
I've been trying to understand the reasons behind it for a while. I tried everything you can think of and nothing helps. It's frustrating that many people who have much less knowledge and experience in dieting than me seem to be able to lose weight relatively easy while I have a trouble to maintain. I know about leptin decreasing with time when in caloric deficit, but what if diet breaks don't change anything?
Recently, I stumbled upon a book about binge eating which says that after prolonged and especially repetitive periods of caloric restriction, the center in hypothalamus that regulates feeding drives us to overeat even if the caloric restriction has stopped and even after we regain the weight we lose. The author is someone who has a history of EDs like myself, and says that eating disorders and repetitive dieting makes this center in the brain more defensive to protect against the future starvation and apparently there are studies on rats that support this.
Does anyone know of similar studies on humans ? or can support this from personal experience?
I've never been underweight, but I had disordered eating from a young age and struggled with bulimia in my teens and early adulthood. After I mostly stopped purging, I still continued the cycle of caloric deficit with short periods of binging/overeating for several years. Now, that I've been in recovery I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me. I often find that even when I eat at maintenance or slightly over, I still feel excessively hungry (I made lots of threadsa about this already(. Because of this, not only have I not been able to lose any weight in the last couple of years, I am actually gaining and am nearing the "overweight" range. I find that I almost inevitably eat over my TDEE unless I make a conscious effort to restrict my intake.
I've been trying to understand the reasons behind it for a while. I tried everything you can think of and nothing helps. It's frustrating that many people who have much less knowledge and experience in dieting than me seem to be able to lose weight relatively easy while I have a trouble to maintain. I know about leptin decreasing with time when in caloric deficit, but what if diet breaks don't change anything?
Recently, I stumbled upon a book about binge eating which says that after prolonged and especially repetitive periods of caloric restriction, the center in hypothalamus that regulates feeding drives us to overeat even if the caloric restriction has stopped and even after we regain the weight we lose. The author is someone who has a history of EDs like myself, and says that eating disorders and repetitive dieting makes this center in the brain more defensive to protect against the future starvation and apparently there are studies on rats that support this.
Does anyone know of similar studies on humans ? or can support this from personal experience?
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Replies
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I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me.
For a small female, unless you're working out a lot, it's just too much kcals to expect weight loss.
The more you eat, the more you stretch your stomach, the more you want the next day and so on. Just restrict yourself to a deficit. It's pure mathematics
I've yo-yo dieted all my teenage years and sticking to a caloric deficit and CICO counting is a lot easier to both lose and maintain.
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gymprincess1234 wrote: »I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me.
For a small female, unless you're working out a lot, it's just too much kcals to expect weight loss.
The more you eat, the more you stretch your stomach, the more you want the next day and so on. Just restrict yourself to a deficit. It's pure mathematics
I've yo-yo dieted all my teenage years and sticking to a caloric deficit and CICO counting is a lot easier to both lose and maintain.
Ok, first of, you don't know my activity level. I've been maintaining a very high activity level with an average TDEE of 2000-2200. I haven't had a net loss in long time simply because regain everything I manage to lose. Secondly, and more importantly, I know very well how mach I "should" be eating to have a chosen rate of weight loss. I am simply unable to be maintain a deficit due to hunger as I explained in my post.
Thirdly, "Just restrict to a deficit" ? Thanks, great advice. Problem solved.
(You tell this to someone who spend prolonged periods eating 600-800 calories in my teens and early adult years. Trust me, I know how to eat at a deficit. That's not my problem.)
(also, for future reference, telling someone with a history of eating disorder, that they need to learn to eat less is a bad idea)9 -
What do you eat? For me there is a huge difference in satiety, for example if my protein and fat intake are relatively low I could eat a horse. With enough protein, decent amount of dietary fat and a couple of strong coffees my hunger is quite manageable despite a 20 year history of yoyo dieting and binges.
I know of people who are volume eaters and unless they have a massive salad to stretch out their stomach they don't feel full. Have you experimented with different approaches?2 -
I have never suffered from hunger, but I have also never suffered from an eating disorder, never eatein way too little, only "suffered" from "normal" (boring) dieting.1
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It may be a question of needing to change what you are eating so you are eating foods that fill you up better and keep you full. When I lost weight on low carb, I was rarely hungry. More protein, more fat and lots of bulky vegetables worked well for me. It wasn't sustainable long term, because I don't actually like meat and eggs that much, but I did lose weight. However, you may do better on other foods. Experiment to see which foods fill you and which trigger your appetite. For some of us, salt makes us crave more salt. Sugar makes us crave more sugar. Alcohol makes us crave more alcohol. Whatever. All foods are not equal in their effects.2
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gymprincess1234 wrote: »I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me.
For a small female, unless you're working out a lot, it's just too much kcals to expect weight loss.
The more you eat, the more you stretch your stomach, the more you want the next day and so on. Just restrict yourself to a deficit. It's pure mathematics
I've yo-yo dieted all my teenage years and sticking to a caloric deficit and CICO counting is a lot easier to both lose and maintain.
Ok, first of, you don't know my activity level. I've been maintaining a very high activity level with an average TDEE of 2000-2200. I haven't had a net loss in long time simply because regain everything I manage to lose. Secondly, and more importantly, I know very well how mach I "should" be eating to have a chosen rate of weight loss. I am simply unable to be maintain a deficit due to hunger as I explained in my post.
Thirdly, "Just restrict to a deficit" ? Thanks, great advice. Problem solved.
(You tell this to someone who spend prolonged periods eating 600-800 calories in my teens and early adult years. Trust me, I know how to eat at a deficit. That's not my problem.)
(also, for future reference, telling someone with a history of eating disorder, that they need to learn to eat less is a bad idea)
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words). If you feel so hungry, go check your hormone levels, track macros, visit a doctor, maybe you're lacking in some nutrients.6 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »It may be a question of needing to change what you are eating so you are eating foods that fill you up better and keep you full. When I lost weight on low carb, I was rarely hungry. More protein, more fat and lots of bulky vegetables worked well for me. It wasn't sustainable long term, because I don't actually like meat and eggs that much, but I did lose weight. However, you may do better on other foods. Experiment to see which foods fill you and which trigger your appetite. For some of us, salt makes us crave more salt. Sugar makes us crave more sugar. Alcohol makes us crave more alcohol. Whatever. All foods are not equal in their effects.What do you eat? For me there is a huge difference in satiety, for example if my protein and fat intake are relatively low I could eat a horse. With enough protein, decent amount of dietary fat and a couple of strong coffees my hunger is quite manageable despite a 20 year history of yoyo dieting and binges.
I know you're trying to help, but honestly, I'm not asking for advice on how to reduce hunger in this thread because I've made a countless number of threads about this already and if I hear another eat-more-fat-protein-fiber-drink-more-water etc. I'm afraid I might have a mental breakdown. I've tried all of it.
I'm only asking about experiences with repetitive caloric restriction.0 -
gymprincess1234 wrote: »
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words). If you feel so hungry, go check your hormone levels, track macros, visit a doctor, maybe you're lacking in some nutrients.
I'm waiting for the response for the question I asked, which was about studies or personal experience relating to hunger levels in repetitive and prolonged caloric restriction, not advice on how to reduce hunger or how to eat at a deficit.
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As I said, 20 years of yoyo and binges and no hunger issues. If you're just looking for people confirming your hypothesis, you should've said so.3
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No, MFP doesn't do that. You get a 500 calories deficit if you set your weekly weight loss goal to 1 pound (provided this doesn't work out to less than 1200 calories). A healthy weightloss is a weightloss you can sustain (theoretically/physically, based on height/weight, as well as practically/mentally, based on habits, environment, skills, and... susceptibility to hunger).gymprincess1234 wrote: »gymprincess1234 wrote: »I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me.
For a small female, unless you're working out a lot, it's just too much kcals to expect weight loss.
The more you eat, the more you stretch your stomach, the more you want the next day and so on. Just restrict yourself to a deficit. It's pure mathematics
I've yo-yo dieted all my teenage years and sticking to a caloric deficit and CICO counting is a lot easier to both lose and maintain.
Ok, first of, you don't know my activity level. I've been maintaining a very high activity level with an average TDEE of 2000-2200. I haven't had a net loss in long time simply because regain everything I manage to lose. Secondly, and more importantly, I know very well how mach I "should" be eating to have a chosen rate of weight loss. I am simply unable to be maintain a deficit due to hunger as I explained in my post.
Thirdly, "Just restrict to a deficit" ? Thanks, great advice. Problem solved.
(You tell this to someone who spend prolonged periods eating 600-800 calories in my teens and early adult years. Trust me, I know how to eat at a deficit. That's not my problem.)
(also, for future reference, telling someone with a history of eating disorder, that they need to learn to eat less is a bad idea)
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words).2 -
@oatbran Okay, so my answer is - NO.
I yo-yo dieted on 500kcal diets all my teenage years whilst having binge eating disorder. I don't know any studies, but as I said from my personal experience, I don't see any correlation between my past and currently very successfully doing CICO for more than a year (-50lbs). If anything, my binges are getting rarer and as my stomach has shrunk, I feel satiated faster.1 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
No, MFP doesn't do that. You get a 500 calories deficit if you set your weekly weight loss goal to 1 pound (provided this doesn't work out to less than 1200 calories). A healthy weightloss is a weightloss you can sustain (theoretically/physically, based on height/weight, as well as practically/mentally, based on habits, environment, skills, and... susceptibility to hunger).gymprincess1234 wrote: »gymprincess1234 wrote: »I haven't restricted my calories under 1500 calories for over a year (I'm a small female), most days I eat 1700-2300 calories depending on my activity level, I often have extended periods where I eat at maintenance or even at surplus. Still, my hunger levels seem abnormal too me.
For a small female, unless you're working out a lot, it's just too much kcals to expect weight loss.
The more you eat, the more you stretch your stomach, the more you want the next day and so on. Just restrict yourself to a deficit. It's pure mathematics
I've yo-yo dieted all my teenage years and sticking to a caloric deficit and CICO counting is a lot easier to both lose and maintain.
Ok, first of, you don't know my activity level. I've been maintaining a very high activity level with an average TDEE of 2000-2200. I haven't had a net loss in long time simply because regain everything I manage to lose. Secondly, and more importantly, I know very well how mach I "should" be eating to have a chosen rate of weight loss. I am simply unable to be maintain a deficit due to hunger as I explained in my post.
Thirdly, "Just restrict to a deficit" ? Thanks, great advice. Problem solved.
(You tell this to someone who spend prolonged periods eating 600-800 calories in my teens and early adult years. Trust me, I know how to eat at a deficit. That's not my problem.)
(also, for future reference, telling someone with a history of eating disorder, that they need to learn to eat less is a bad idea)
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words).
My bad, I track on another app, so thought they all work the same.1 -
I don't know about studies but there are definitely anecdotal instances of what you describe.
Changes in types of food, in type of activity and exercise and possibly looking into places such as the eat more to lose forum group (caloric deficit still required). I am assuming you've gone though the first pages of the on re-feeds and diet breaks thread?
Your current situation may require a lot of the "tricks" employed by people who are very lean and trying to get leaner.
Also you mentioned "nearing" the overweight range. I would suggest that with your history... why are you even trying to restrict BEFORE you're outside of the normal weight range to begin with?
So... how much time have you actually spent on normal maintenance vis a vis "permacut" in recent memory?4 -
I don't know about studies but there are definitely anecdotal instances of what you describe.
Changes in types of food, in type of activity and exercise and possibly looking into places such as the eat more to lose forum group (caloric deficit still required). I am assuming you've gone though the first pages of the on re-feeds and diet breaks thread?
Your current situation may require a lot of the "tricks" employed by people who are very lean and trying to get leaner.
Also you mentioned "nearing" the overweight range. I would suggest that with your history... why are you even trying to restrict BEFORE you're outside of the normal weight range to begin with?
So... how much time have you actually spent on normal maintenance vis a vis "permacut" in recent memory?
Thank you for your reply. I'm trying to lose a little weight, very slowly, because of the weight my body redistributes fat. My lower body simply looks overweight. Simple body recomposition won't be helpful - or easier, I'm afraid, because indeed I noticed that heavy lifting makes me ravenous. So at the moment I stick to light weights and cardio. I'm trying to lower my exercise level to see if it'll help to solve the hunger problem, but I'm not comfortable to stop exercising completely.
I am following the refeeds and diet breaks thread, yes. In the recent memory the longest I've eaten at maintenance has been a little over 2 weeks. I'm currently trying to see if a longer (3-4 weeks) diet break will do the trick. Sometimes after a diet break/refeed I can eat at small deficit for several days, sometimes a week maybe and feel fine. Than gradually or suddenly the hunger returns and doesn't go away.0 -
Specific to yo-yo dieting. I did this most of my life to one degree or another. When I started losing weight again a couple of years ago I didn't notice an increase in appetite compared to other times I lost weight. I did go slower this time so less of a calorie deficit, but my biggest battle was getting out of the habitual over-restriction followed by eating with complete abandon habit.1
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My bias is that of a previously obese person.
But I hear you. In that I very seldom feel like leaving calories on the table.
From my position I would not be looking on how to head out to lose weight before I had figured out how to not be hungry at my current weight.
My advice would be to diet break until you're no longer hungry at your current TRUE MAINTENANCE eating level.
Hungry after lifting indicates to me hormones at work.
Again. You're not overweight. Maybe not as shredded as you want to be. But that doesn't mean your body is ready to accept going lower...and... riddle me this... if you can be as athletic and healthy as you want to be and are already permahungry... why would you want to exacerbate that by going down in weight?
So. From my perspective not making things worse comes first before marginal improvements.
Solve happy maintenance before embarking on further changes....
6 -
gymprincess1234 wrote: »
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words). If you feel so hungry, go check your hormone levels, track macros, visit a doctor, maybe you're lacking in some nutrients.
I'm waiting for the response for the question I asked, which was about studies or personal experience relating to hunger levels in repetitive and prolonged caloric restriction, not advice on how to reduce hunger or how to eat at a deficit.
Given the variation in human experience, I doubt how relevant anyone else's personal experience (or even studies of human subjects, if there are any, because they would either be (a) extracted from longitudinal data, in which controlling for variables related to something as complicated and subjective as feelings of hunger and long-term levels of calorie restriction would be difficult; (b) based on subjects' recall, which is prone to error; or (c) based on such small study groups that controlling for variables and getting results that are statistically significant will both be challenges) is going to be to yours.
But, since you're asking, my N=1 experience is that it was much easier to lose weight and keep it off after decades of losing and regaining when I finally had the tools to make calorie counting relatively easy (a huge, web-based database of foods to log in a cloud-based record system; another huge, web-based database created by government scientists to check the entries in the first database; government-mandated food labels on packaged food; a way to add foods to the first database that I needed that were missing; and a tool that maintained those records and made it relatively easy to use my own data to compute my TDEE).
I experience mild hunger as meals approach usually, but not always, and stronger (but not what I would call excessive) hunger a couple of days a week, usually, but only because my work schedule tends to make the gap between lunch and dinner pretty long, and the deadline pressure means if I don't have something super quick and convenient on hand that is satiating (because there's no point in eating something that's not going to stave off the hunger for at least an hour or two), I'm just going to make do with coffee. It's not as bad as it was in previous decades when I ate more calories overall, but would have low-blood-sugar crashes even when my stomach didn't feel empty. Getting the shakes, feeling nauseous and dizzy, and becoming "get-out-of-my-way-before-I-hurt-you" irritable (which is what my low-blood-sugar crashes were like) felt a lot more "excessive" to me than just have a hollow feeling in my stomach for a bit.
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My bias is that of a previously obese person.
But I hear you. In that I very seldom feel like leaving calories on the table.
From my position I would not be looking on how to head out to lose weight before I had figured out how to not be hungry at my current weight.
My advice would be to diet break until you're no longer hungry at your current TRUE MAINTENANCE eating level.
Hungry after lifting indicates to me hormones at work.
Again. You're not overweight. Maybe not as shredded as you want to be. But that doesn't mean your body is ready to accept going lower...and... riddle me this... if you can be as athletic and healthy as you want to be and are already permahungry... why would you want to exacerbate that by going down in weight?
So. From my perspective not making things worse comes first before marginal improvements.
Solve happy maintenance before embarking on further changes....
Thank you. Currently, I'm trying to do exactly that. Eating around maintenance until hopefully I stop feeling hungry all the time and monitoring my weight at the same time to see if it's indeed my maintenance.
I am trying to figure out the reason behind the hunger because I suspect that these levels of hunger are abnormal. They feel abnormal. Actually, I can remember that it wasn't a problem until around 2-3 years ago, but at the moment I can't pinpoint what has changed. This is why I'm trying to understand where they could be coming from. If I can figure where they coming from, I might also figure how to solve the problem, which will make both weight loss and maintenance easier. But even if they are, say, permanent damage due to my ED history or some other problem and there's little I can do, at least I'll know that I'm not just imagining it and won't feel like an undisciplined failure for not being able to eat at a deficit like everyone else here. And then I'll be figuring out how to live with that.
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »gymprincess1234 wrote: »
I don't know what magic response you were waiting for, but weight loss is simple, but not easy. You have to eat at a deficit ( MFP usually sets it to 500kcal deficit, which is healthy weight loss, so don't you try to blame me by twisting my words). If you feel so hungry, go check your hormone levels, track macros, visit a doctor, maybe you're lacking in some nutrients.
I'm waiting for the response for the question I asked, which was about studies or personal experience relating to hunger levels in repetitive and prolonged caloric restriction, not advice on how to reduce hunger or how to eat at a deficit.
Given the variation in human experience, I doubt how relevant anyone else's personal experience (or even studies of human subjects, if there are any, because they would either be (a) extracted from longitudinal data, in which controlling for variables related to something as complicated and subjective as feelings of hunger and long-term levels of calorie restriction would be difficult; (b) based on subjects' recall, which is prone to error; or (c) based on such small study groups that controlling for variables and getting results that are statistically significant will both be challenges) is going to be to yours.
But, since you're asking, my N=1 experience is that it was much easier to lose weight and keep it off after decades of losing and regaining when I finally had the tools to make calorie counting relatively easy (a huge, web-based database of foods to log in a cloud-based record system; another huge, web-based database created by government scientists to check the entries in the first database; government-mandated food labels on packaged food; a way to add foods to the first database that I needed that were missing; and a tool that maintained those records and made it relatively easy to use my own data to compute my TDEE).
I experience mild hunger as meals approach usually, but not always, and stronger (but not what I would call excessive) hunger a couple of days a week, usually, but only because my work schedule tends to make the gap between lunch and dinner pretty long, and the deadline pressure means if I don't have something super quick and convenient on hand that is satiating (because there's no point in eating something that's not going to stave off the hunger for at least an hour or two), I'm just going to make do with coffee. It's not as bad as it was in previous decades when I ate more calories overall, but would have low-blood-sugar crashes even when my stomach didn't feel empty. Getting the shakes, feeling nauseous and dizzy, and becoming "get-out-of-my-way-before-I-hurt-you" irritable (which is what my low-blood-sugar crashes were like) felt a lot more "excessive" to me than just have a hollow feeling in my stomach for a bit.
Thank you. Yeah, I do realize that neither studies nor personal experience are a perfect indicators of anything. I was just wondering if a fair number of people notice a similar correlation to support this hypothesis so that I could put this on the list of possible reasons or discard it and move on. It seems like, there's no such correlation so I'm moving on...2 -
Extreme hunger is actually a thing that happens in eating disorder recovery. It's awful, and it can be frightening -- especially when you've spent the bulk of your life trying to master your hunger cues, and control your calories, and then suddenly BOOM! Surprise! You want to eat all the things.
Can you meet with a dietitian who has experience working with patients in recovery? I feel like that would be more helpful for you than the MFP forums since the majority of people here have no inkling of what recovery is like, and how it becomes more challenging for people in how they experience hunger cues.3
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