Barefoot/Minimalist Running
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »thank you all for the great responses.
my take so far is that i feel there is a great deal of merit to this. it just makes a lot of sense to me, and i can definitely feel the difference between the joint stress of heel striking and the muscular stress of forefoot striking. Also being able to feel the ground, and my brain being able to interpret that and adjust my form better.
i think that people who have tried this and injured themselves did too much too fast, and then just chalked it up to another fad that don't work.
don't know if i will go to the extreme of running barefoot on asphalt, but i am definitely going to slowly work my way into minimal and forefoot strike. it's kinda like starting over again, but i think it will pay off in the long run.
get it?
long run?
i did my second run today and did 1/4 x 11 over a 3.85 mile distance. the run intervals where about a 10:00/mi. pace.
i feel no joint stress as i do heel striking, but i do feel the muscular stress. just knowing that the mechanics of the foot pivoting and allowing them to take the shock rather than sending it up through the joints should make enough sense to realize that his is a real thing. I would even go as far as to say it could rehabilitate the foot.
JMHO
Just to be clear - heel vs. mid. vs. front is not the issue. The issue is your stride length. You are absolutely fine to heel strike as long as do not overstride. Heck, it's still very possible to overstride with fore or mid front running. The only difference would be where the injury shows up (knee vs. achilles).
Without arguing the necessity of the change, you are approaching it the right way. Just be careful with the switch. Dismissing those who got injured trying to change as "they weren't smart about how they did it" is dangerous and foolish.
Has a kind of "the shoe didn't fail the runner, the runner failed the shoe!" ring to it.
The snag with the debate is that it's a bit fundy... Born to Run is a bit ONE TRUE WAY (TM) about it.
Zero drop, minimal protection has a place. Zero drop maximal has a place. Twelve mm, cushioned, has a place. I won't go on.2 -
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i think everyone has good points and this is definitely a healthy debate.
i agree that form is a very important part of running. not only to prevent injuries, but to be a better runner.
one point i would like to make is that i think all these different types of running shoes "DO" make all the muscles associated with running weaker, because they give support on area's that should be doing work. and having that ground feel "DOES" cause runners form to suffer. and heel striking "DOES" send a more sudden and more pronounced shock through all your joints.
Landing on the ball of your foot allows the pivoting of your foot to absorb most of that shock by using the muscles in your foot, and your joints then take very little (if any) of that shock. a shorter stride and higher cadence also lessens the shock.
also, having that feeling of the ground, your brain forces you to have better form because you know it's going to hurt if you don't.
these are all very valid points to me, but i also think that to be successful you pretty much have to start from scratch, and very gradually build it up. we have been wearing shoes that do a lot of the work for us most of our lives, and it may take a year (or more) to gradually build that strength.4 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
i would say get a pair of minimalist zero drop shoes and just start doing it.
but
do it very gradually.
i started with walk/run intervals. 1 min run/4 min walk, and at a slow pace with a shorter stride and a higher cadence. i try to focus on my form, and striking with my forefoot, then allowing my muscles to absorb the shock by pivoting my foot until my heel just gently kissed the ground.
i did this over a 3 to 4 mile distance. i did not feel the stress in my joints like i did heel striking, but i did feel the muscles working.
your mileage may vary, but if it starts hurting, just start walking again. if you feel like you can go longer, go longer. listen to your body and don't over do it.
the best things in nature happen slowly over time.
i just ordered a pair of these that should be here tomorrow...
https://xeroshoes.com/shop/activity/performance/prio-men/
they have good ratings, are not expensive, and have a 5,000 mile sole warranty.5 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.2 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science2 -
Let me preface this by saying that I don't have the first damn clue what I'm talking about.
But I can't help but think that any benefits or risks associated with barefoot running or shoed running or any other running is going to be REALLY individual and based more on a person's specific mechanics, body, conditioning, etc. I don't know how you say that any benefit or any risk is universal and applies to even the vast majority of runners.2 -
OldAssDude wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science
Have you actually followed the links in that article to the 'scientific evidence'? I just did....5 -
OldAssDude wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science
Have you actually followed the links in that article to the 'scientific evidence'? I just did....
LOL that's crazy talk! I did as well and am not impressed. Like one Popular Mechanics article referring to another Popular Mechanics article.1 -
I spent years fighting stress fractures(diagnosed via bone scan) in my tibias when running. I healed them for the zillionth time and went out and bought a pair of zero drop shoes. 6 months slowly transitioning into those then wearing them fully and I bought my first pair of “five fingers” vibrams. FOR ME they have been the best possible shoes! I worked my way into them slowly, over a full year, and now wear them exclusively. Half marathon distance on pavement and gravel, sandy runs, grassy runs, aerobics on my cement floors, weight training, multi day hikes of 15 plus miles with a pack, if I wear anything else I get hip pain, ankle pain and over days my tibias start to ache and I know I am risking damage again.
They work for some people not for others. I am a fan and my Physio is a fan. I feel they have increased my rom, strength, and overal use of the joints in my foot. I am a massage therapist and have come into contact with many far better educated people than me who are backing away from the over supported, mobility restricting footwear of today and moving towards more natural movement of feet. If you decide to use them, work your way in slow, listen to your body, do some good research on body mechanics, and talk to experts when you are in contact with them.2 -
All the guys I run with tried the minimalist shoes, then went maximal (Hoka), and are now all in a neutral shoe with 4 to 10mm drop. It seems to work.1
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After a year recovery from a multi-year plantar fasciitis injury, I started barefoot running on shock-absorbing treadmill at gym (in socks actually).
Got everything really strong then.
After ruining socks enough, and switching to the most non-shock absorbing treadmill, got Vibram Five-Fingers.
Rubbed me wrong, so got Merrill Trail Gloves.
Worked well there and obviously on the trail.
Discovered soon after unequal leg-length causing me issues for years I was unaware of - so went to Sketchers and Saucony Kinvara 5 so I could get the full-length shims in there.
Ben in those ever sense.
Unless on trail, then use Merrill's to get some use out of them.
Turns out I'd already been doing mid-foot landing even prior to compensate somewhat for that leg length issue, so it was really minimal change to stride, except for heel drop difference now, 0-4 mm.
Having padding was so much better, and needed for me to finish marathons. The Sketchers good race shoes as very light, not good training as too easy to wear out.
Excellent way to break into it - jog/walk intervals.
Be very aware of any twinges.
I walked around the house barefoot all the time for months, and no arch supports in all shoes that were flexible. (orthotics if not flexible like biking shoes).1 -
OldAssDude wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science
I'm afraid that article largely just makes assertions. The articles it links to that are sound, don't support the assertions.
From a coaching perspective, a zero drop minimal protection shoe can have some benefit for some people in some circumstances. There is a need to consider pre-existing conditions, and how those impact on risk.
As Adzak highlighted, the trend is subsiding. In part because there are now far more shoes out there that deliver some of the benefits, but don't expose the runner to the risk. In part it's because it was a fashion, and the market moves on.
Essentially any runner can move to a more forefoot dominant gait through drills, practice and focus. It's not the shoes, but the runner. Personally, I'm in the if it ain't broke school of thought, particularly as there are other solutions to the purported reasons, some of which are far quicker.3 -
Let me preface this by saying that I don't have the first damn clue what I'm talking about.
But I can't help but think that any benefits or risks associated with barefoot running or shoed running or any other running is going to be REALLY individual and based more on a person's specific mechanics, body, conditioning, etc. I don't know how you say that any benefit or any risk is universal and applies to even the vast majority of runners.
it's true that everyone is unique, but on the other hand we all have the same muscle groups, bones, joints, etc...
i think the key here is adjusting a plan that fits your individuality.
1 -
yes. i have read some of the studies that talk about injuries associated with minimalist running, but some of those did indicate that the injuries may have been caused by people not following the plan and over doing it. i think i read a study that took a group of runners and made them follow a strict plan over a 6 month period, and i think they showed improvement in muscle mass as well as having very few (if any) injuries.
here is an interesting interview with a foot doctor...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=q2UEL8mqpr8&t=1100s
i think probably the most important thing is to do it in very small steps, slowly build the strength, and not over do it.
you would not keep your foot in a cast (max cushioned shoe with arch support) your whole life, then take the cast off and try to run a marathon. would you?2 -
Ok, so I have been using barefoot shoes for about a couple weeks now, and I have to say...
MY FREEKIN FEET ARE FREEKIN KILLING ME!!!
I can't even get a decent cardio because it hurts too much, and my Achilles tendon is very tender and sore. I have been trying to take it easy and work on my form (which sucks to begin with), and have been focusing on mid-foot striking and just letting my heel touch the ground after the mid-foot strike. I power walk a lot, and at first learned that I was slamming the back of my heel pretty hard (something i did not notice with my cushioned shoes), and have been working on impacting on the bottom of my heel now.
One thing these barefoot shoes have done is expose weaknesses in my form both running and walking, and make me realize that I have to work on that.
I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now.
I think now that I will use the Escalante's so I can work on my form without killing my feet, and throw the barefoot shoes on periodically to evaluate my progress.
The up side is that I am learning stuff...:)2 -
OldAssDude wrote: »Ok, so I have been using barefoot shoes for about a couple weeks now, and I have to say...
MY FREEKIN FEET ARE FREEKIN KILLING ME!!!
I can't even get a decent cardio because it hurts too much, and my Achilles tendon is very tender and sore. I have been trying to take it easy and work on my form (which sucks to begin with), and have been focusing on mid-foot striking and just letting my heel touch the ground after the mid-foot strike. I power walk a lot, and at first learned that I was slamming the back of my heel pretty hard (something i did not notice with my cushioned shoes), and have been working on impacting on the bottom of my heel now.
One thing these barefoot shoes have done is expose weaknesses in my form both running and walking, and make me realize that I have to work on that.
I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now.
I think now that I will use the Escalante's so I can work on my form without killing my feet, and throw the barefoot shoes on periodically to evaluate my progress.
The up side is that I am learning stuff...:)
Could simply be a case of doing too much too soon or could possibly be that too much atrophy has occurred already. When I started running barefoot at age 39 I was already in horrible shape cardiowise so that alone stopped me from going very far or fast in the beginning. I ended up developing my cardio fitness and barefoot form simultaneously. Being barefoot felt like just what I needed, it felt normal to me, running was fun and didn’t feel like torture as it did when I wore shoes, I felt free, and been running that way for 4 years now. As a pleasant side effect, I’ve gained stability in my feet that I never had before, I’m no longer the klutz that’s constantly tripping over her own feet. My posture has improved 100%, I have developed strong arches in previously flat feet, amazing ankle stability and it’s helped correct my gait and eliminated previous knee pain that I’d suffered from for 19 years. But all those perceived benefits aside, I will continue to run barefoot simply because I find it super fun, makes me feel like a kid again! As far as form goes, I read once that imagine you were outdoors barefoot and you had to suddenly run across the pavement to save a child from getting hit by a car... that’s perfect form because you are running instinctually and not thinking about it. Also, running barefoot should not be painful. If it’s painful, change something to make it feel light, free, fun... that might be making sure you are elongating your torso, relaxed arms and lower legs, slowing down, keep your feet underneath/behind you, paying attention to foot placement, different surfaces, etc. Also realize that it will take time for the muscles to adapt but much much MUCH longer for tendons and ligaments to get used to being used, and for the fat pads on your soles to develop. You might want to check out Xero shoes, I wear the 4mm diy sandals to run in when conditions aren’t optimal for barefooting but they have a lot of different styles. Good luck and happy running!2 -
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.1 -
I'm curious @OldAssDude - Other than being curious why do you want to change so drastically? Was you old way of running causing problems? I'm not really up on power walking but I know with regular walking hitting your heel first is pretty much normal.
I guess I just don't understand the fascination with it.1 -
I'm curious @OldAssDude - Other than being curious why do you want to change so drastically? Was you old way of running causing problems? I'm not really up on power walking but I know with regular walking hitting your heel first is pretty much normal.
I guess I just don't understand the fascination with it.
@dewd2 thanks for the response.
i'm old (60) and have been adding running to my workouts for going on a year now. Started only being able to run for about 30 seconds, and worked my way up to being able to run 5 miles at a slow pace.
During this time I feel like my joints (knees, hips, etc...) have gotten stronger, but I have always felt a lot of stress on them. Not injury type stress, but I am concerned about the effects of long term stress.
I wanted to start working on improving my pace, and started doing intervals. I run for 30 to 60 seconds at a fast pace, then power walk for 3 to 4 minutes at about a 4 mph pace. My mile time was about 13 to 14 minutes, but since I've been doing these intervals (a few months now), I ran a mile the other week in 11:28.
Recently I have been reading up on running form and different types of running shoes, and I started reading about barefoot running. It made sense to me so I wanted to give it a try. It definitely showed me how bad my form is, and now that I am trying to develop a mid-foot strike, I don't feel any of the stress on my joints that I used to feel.
I probably am doing too much too fast, and that is probably why my feet and Achilles tendons are killing me, but I can't push hard enough to get a good cardio and I don't want to wind up injured. So I figure now that I know what i need to work on with my form, I can still do that wearing my Altra Escalante's as they are basically minimalist shoes with cushioning.
I found out I am a hard heel striker (especially power walking), and that is causing a lot of braking action, and that is causing me to exert more energy at even a slower paces. If I can improve my form with less breaking action, I think I should be able to improve my pace and use the same amount of energy.
At least that is what I am thinking.
Do let me know if I am on the right track (or not).
thanks,1 -
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.
The Escalante's are my new favorite as well.
I have several pairs of Hoka's, Brook's, Adida's, Altra's, and a few others. I love the Escalante's for the same reasons as you. I never could get used to the Asic's though.0 -
monkeefan1974 wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »Ok, so I have been using barefoot shoes for about a couple weeks now, and I have to say...
MY FREEKIN FEET ARE FREEKIN KILLING ME!!!
I can't even get a decent cardio because it hurts too much, and my Achilles tendon is very tender and sore. I have been trying to take it easy and work on my form (which sucks to begin with), and have been focusing on mid-foot striking and just letting my heel touch the ground after the mid-foot strike. I power walk a lot, and at first learned that I was slamming the back of my heel pretty hard (something i did not notice with my cushioned shoes), and have been working on impacting on the bottom of my heel now.
One thing these barefoot shoes have done is expose weaknesses in my form both running and walking, and make me realize that I have to work on that.
I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now.
I think now that I will use the Escalante's so I can work on my form without killing my feet, and throw the barefoot shoes on periodically to evaluate my progress.
The up side is that I am learning stuff...:)
Could simply be a case of doing too much too soon or could possibly be that too much atrophy has occurred already. When I started running barefoot at age 39 I was already in horrible shape cardiowise so that alone stopped me from going very far or fast in the beginning. I ended up developing my cardio fitness and barefoot form simultaneously. Being barefoot felt like just what I needed, it felt normal to me, running was fun and didn’t feel like torture as it did when I wore shoes, I felt free, and been running that way for 4 years now. As a pleasant side effect, I’ve gained stability in my feet that I never had before, I’m no longer the klutz that’s constantly tripping over her own feet. My posture has improved 100%, I have developed strong arches in previously flat feet, amazing ankle stability and it’s helped correct my gait and eliminated previous knee pain that I’d suffered from for 19 years. But all those perceived benefits aside, I will continue to run barefoot simply because I find it super fun, makes me feel like a kid again! As far as form goes, I read once that imagine you were outdoors barefoot and you had to suddenly run across the pavement to save a child from getting hit by a car... that’s perfect form because you are running instinctually and not thinking about it. Also, running barefoot should not be painful. If it’s painful, change something to make it feel light, free, fun... that might be making sure you are elongating your torso, relaxed arms and lower legs, slowing down, keep your feet underneath/behind you, paying attention to foot placement, different surfaces, etc. Also realize that it will take time for the muscles to adapt but much much MUCH longer for tendons and ligaments to get used to being used, and for the fat pads on your soles to develop. You might want to check out Xero shoes, I wear the 4mm diy sandals to run in when conditions aren’t optimal for barefooting but they have a lot of different styles. Good luck and happy running!
You're probably right, but I can't get a good cardio unless I push it, and I don't want to wind up injured either.
I have the Xero Prio's and the Vivobarefoot Stealth II's, and have a pair of the Xero sandals on order.
I am not giving up, but I still need to get my cardio on, so I think I'm going to use them in conjunction with my Altra Escalante's. They are basically a minimalist shoe with cushioning.
Thanks for the reply.1 -
OldAssDude wrote: »i'm old (60) and have been adding running to my workouts for going on a year now. Started only being able to run for about 30 seconds, and worked my way up to being able to run 5 miles at a slow pace.
During this time I feel like my joints (knees, hips, etc...) have gotten stronger, but I have always felt a lot of stress on them. Not injury type stress, but I am concerned about the effects of long term stress.
I wanted to start working on improving my pace, and started doing intervals. I run for 30 to 60 seconds at a fast pace, then power walk for 3 to 4 minutes at about a 4 mph pace. My mile time was about 13 to 14 minutes, but since I've been doing these intervals (a few months now), I ran a mile the other week in 11:28.
Recently I have been reading up on running form and different types of running shoes, and I started reading about barefoot running. It made sense to me so I wanted to give it a try. It definitely showed me how bad my form is, and now that I am trying to develop a mid-foot strike, I don't feel any of the stress on my joints that I used to feel.
I probably am doing too much too fast, and that is probably why my feet and Achilles tendons are killing me, but I can't push hard enough to get a good cardio and I don't want to wind up injured. So I figure now that I know what i need to work on with my form, I can still do that wearing my Altra Escalante's as they are basically minimalist shoes with cushioning.
I found out I am a hard heel striker (especially power walking), and that is causing a lot of braking action, and that is causing me to exert more energy at even a slower paces. If I can improve my form with less breaking action, I think I should be able to improve my pace and use the same amount of energy.
At least that is what I am thinking.
Do let me know if I am on the right track (or not).
thanks,
Not sure if you stated your normal weekly mileage, but pace/interval work will probably be much less helpful to you than slow easy volume until you regularly run upwards of 15-20ish miles per week.
Rather than shift to intervals too soon, you might be better served to build a very solid cardio & physical base by focusing on easy volume. Something like 2-3 weekly sessions of easy medium mileage, 1 weekly session of shorter tempo miles, and 1 weekly session of long slow distance is kind of a 'cookie cutter' training agenda for most of us in the advanced beginner camp. This focus on long slow mileage will give you plenty of time to physically adjust to distance running and will naturally increase your pace for shorter distances.
Braking action is not really caused by heel striking by itself. Braking action is really caused by your foot landing too far out in front of your body. You can actually play around with your stride length while walking to see this in action. If you focus on shorter strides that land underneath your center of gravity, then even without consciously changing your foot strike, you'll find the shorter strides are much much easier on your knees.2 -
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.
I find this interesting.
I've just switched from Asics GT-1000 to Hoka One One. My take is that they made more cushioning in the front as opposed to dropping the heel. Whether that is true or not, I don't know but I get the "platform shoe" feeling as well. But so far I'm liking them. I've got about 50KM on them. are the Altras similar for providing support? I still feel that I would need that, but they sound interesting.0 -
@AnvilHead & @OldAssDude regarding the Altra's.
2 yrs ago when I checked none of the running stores had them, and they already other minimalist stuff for many years, so just a matter of not carrying that brand. So no ability to physically check.
You mentioned wider, than standard shoes? Or just not as narrow as some?
I do need tad wider than normal, the narrow ones, or the curve of the last on some of them, just was terrible.
The Saucony Kinvara 5 I got in on and liked, read reviews the 6 changed thing in bad way, and bought several more of the 5's.
But I'd like the 0 drop like the Sketchers I got, but with actual tread to last awhile.
Also, the Kinvara had enough foot space height to slip a full length lift for unequal leg, others were too tight already.
Just curious, think I want to order some.
Thanks for any info, already gave alot.0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.
I find this interesting.
I've just switched from Asics GT-1000 to Hoka One One. My take is that they made more cushioning in the front as opposed to dropping the heel. Whether that is true or not, I don't know but I get the "platform shoe" feeling as well. But so far I'm liking them. I've got about 50KM on them. are the Altras similar for providing support? I still feel that I would need that, but they sound interesting.
My understanding is that the lift or platform on the altras isn't as extreme as the Hokas.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.
I find this interesting.
I've just switched from Asics GT-1000 to Hoka One One. My take is that they made more cushioning in the front as opposed to dropping the heel. Whether that is true or not, I don't know but I get the "platform shoe" feeling as well. But so far I'm liking them. I've got about 50KM on them. are the Altras similar for providing support? I still feel that I would need that, but they sound interesting.
My understanding is that the lift or platform on the altras isn't as extreme as the Hokas.
Looking online, they may not offer the stability I'm wearing now. The Hoka and Asics are a 3 whereas the Altra are 2. Looking at the running room site for this.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »
Altra Escalante is my current favorite running shoe. Before them I was wearing Asics, then Hoka One Ones. I loved the rockered sole on the Hokas which made running feel effortless and they were so cushioned that it was like running on a cloud, but they're too narrow for my feet and started getting painful after a couple miles. I also wasn't crazy about how thick the soles were - it felt like wearing platform shoes.OldAssDude wrote: »...I am rethinking this whole thing now. I have a pair of Altra Escalante's, and they are zero drop, flexible, flat with no real arch support, but they have some cushioning. I put them on yesterday and within a matter of hours my feet felt fine again, and my Achilles tendon is hardly sore at all now...
When I first switched to Altras, the zero drop made it feel like I was running with the brakes on in comparison to the Hokas. After a little adaptation period, the Altras just feel like....nothing....to me (in a good way). I don't notice anything about them when I'm running - they're cushioned enough without being too cushioned, roomy enough without being sloppy, and almost as flexible as running barefoot while still offering protection. Basically, they just get out of the way and let you run.
I'm a mid/forefoot striker regardless of what shoes I'm running in, so that didn't require any adaptation for me. I've run in barefoot/minimalist zero drop shoes before (Merrells and Five Fingers), so I knew to take it easy for a few runs to minimize the calf/achilles pain as I adapted back to the zero drop. To me, the Altras are the best of both worlds - minimalist enough without being too minimalist, and cushioned enough without feeling like I have couches strapped to my feet.
I find this interesting.
I've just switched from Asics GT-1000 to Hoka One One. My take is that they made more cushioning in the front as opposed to dropping the heel. Whether that is true or not, I don't know but I get the "platform shoe" feeling as well. But so far I'm liking them. I've got about 50KM on them. are the Altras similar for providing support? I still feel that I would need that, but they sound interesting.
My understanding is that the lift or platform on the altras isn't as extreme as the Hokas.
I know a lot of people who can't get on with the stack height in Hokas but do fine in Altras.
That said, my shoes have a 13mm stack, including a 4mm tread depth, whereas the Stinson has a 34mm. That's a lot of cushion.0 -
I agree with the slower and longer runs as a way to get faster. These runs build your body. Your lungs will be way ahead and it is easy to over do it. Even for me after many years of training I only do speed work once a week (except for a brief time in June when I'm training for a mile race). If you cannot run 6-10 miles without stopping, there's no point in speed work. Your body just isn't ready for it.
Also agree with focusing on your stride. Like I said before, I do hit my heel slightly but I have no braking action. My foot sweeps from under my body and extends behind me. I do have some flaws for sure, but braking due to heel strike is not one of them.1 -
I tried both Hoka and Altras at demo runs. The Hokas made me feel like I was running on a mattress. And I was afraid of tripping over my own feet with the Atra's weird toe design. I doubt I'd ever try either again (unless Nike manages to mess up my favorite shoes and I need something new).0
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