Sugar and Cancer

vm007 · April 2018

Hi,

Opportunity for me to learn more from you all.

I was watching a documentary on Amazon called "Magic pill" which promotes ketogenic diet. As it went on, a woman came on and talked about how she killed her Cancer by doing ketogenic diet and was recommending that everyone can do so by eating keto diet.

Now since I have zero knowledge about this line of work and for me, I use CICO and when I'm feeling fancy I make sure my protein and fiber levels are good.

So what's up with this? They also talked about "flawed" model known as "energy in and energy out".

I understand that some like specific diets but when did CICO become irrelevant when it came to weight loss? I understand CICO needs to be adjusted for nutrition as in if you eat only Carbs it'll be bad because you won't meet your nutrition requirement but for weight loss and gain, why do they keep harping on about this being wrong? Do they know something I don't?

Thanks in advance. I'm here to learn so if I'm wrong I'd be happy to learn but for me CICO has worked wonderfully.

toxikon · April 2018

Take any food-related documentaries you watch with a grain of salt. Most of them are produced for entertainment, or for shock factor and use cherry-picked, flawed studies and references. You'll find plenty of documentaries that conflict each-other, because they're all trying to promote different ways of eating. "Sugar causes cancer! No, meat causes cancer!"

Keto is a big fad right now. Sure, there are some health benefits (keto is often an effective diet for children with seizures) but it hasn't been studied well and I've never read anything convincing on keto's effects on cancer.

All you can really do is eat a generally well-balanced diet and hope your genetics have blessed you well.

OhCaroleM · April 2018

I suggest you watch a video on YouTube by Dr. Robert Ludwig. He talks about a condition called "Metabolic Syndrome" that is somewhat of a vicious cycle where basically body insulin gets out of balance and the body processes blood sugar into fat, with much of it going to the liver. The body gets somewhat dependent the cycle and when sugar intake is reduced (as with dieting) the body signals the brain and increases appetite. So people eat more and it sabbotages diets. It's a very difficult cycle to break hence many people experience yoyo dieting.

My understanding is that someone experiencing the syndrome may have the best success by VERY gradual weight loss.

Dr. Ludwig paints a pretty bleak picture, but there are many people here on MFP that have overcome, many success stories to motivate you.

malibu927 · April 2018

OhCaroleM wrote: »

I suggest you watch a video on YouTube by Dr. Robert Ludwig. He talks about a condition called "Metabolic Syndrome" that is somewhat of a vicious cycle where basically body insulin gets out of balance and the body processes blood sugar into fat, with much of it going to the liver. The body gets somewhat dependent the cycle and when sugar intake is reduced (as with dieting) the body signals the brain and increases appetite. So people eat more and it sabbotages diets. It's a very difficult cycle to break hence many people experience yoyo dieting.

My understanding is that someone experiencing the syndrome may have the best success by VERY gradual weight loss.

Dr. Ludwig paints a pretty bleak picture, but there are many people here on MFP that have overcome, many success stories to motivate you.

This example is exactly why Ludwig should not be followed.

OP, there is nothing wrong with CICO. Some people just believe in it.

cwolfman13 · April 2018

vm007 wrote: »

Hi,

Opportunity for me to learn more from you all.

I was watching a documentary on Amazon called "Magic pill" which promotes ketogenic diet. As it went on, a woman came on and talked about how she killed her Cancer by doing ketogenic diet and was recommending that everyone can do so by eating keto diet.

Now since I have zero knowledge about this line of work and for me, I use CICO and when I'm feeling fancy I make sure my protein and fiber levels are good.

So what's up with this? They also talked about "flawed" model known as "energy in and energy out".

I understand that some like specific diets but when did CICO become irrelevant when it came to weight loss? I understand CICO needs to be adjusted for nutrition as in if you eat only Carbs it'll be bad because you won't meet your nutrition requirement but for weight loss and gain, why do they keep harping on about this being wrong? Do they know something I don't?

Thanks in advance. I'm here to learn so if I'm wrong I'd be happy to learn but for me CICO has worked wonderfully.

Your answer is in the bolded...they're pushing an agenda just like any other documentary does. Take any documentary with a huge grain of salt...I've never seen one yet that wasn't heavily biased towards their own conclusions. Documentaries are just vehicles for various agendas.

snowflake954 · April 2018

Keto is a fad diet right now. When I started 5 yrs ago, paelo was all the rage. Next year--who knows? Since you've found success with calorie counting, I'd just continue that and wait out the fads.

YvetteK2015 · April 2018

If ingesting high amounts of fat killed cancer, no one would go through the hell that is chemotherapy. I swear *kitten* like that just pisses me the *kitten* off, like we didn't have anything better to do than sit in a room and get poisoned for months. Like we wouldn't have rather just eaten bacon and gone about our day. Such crap.

nvmomketo · April 2018

Low sugar diets can help with treating some cancers such as brain cancer and some others. There are some cancers that use fats as a fuel very well, and although those are not a majority, you would want to know your cancer before adjusting your diet to treat it. It can also be complementary to more common cancer treatments such as radiation and chemo, and helps reduce cancer cachexia.

It is thought that limiting or avoiding refined carbohydrates may help with cancer prevention but that is not well researched or proven.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

About all they have shown so far is that the low fat diet of yesteryear does not seem to help prevent CVD or cancer, at least in the types that they looked at.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2006/02/09/low-fat-diet-not-a-cure-all-womens-health-initiative/

YvetteK2015 · April 2018

nvmomketo wrote: »

Low sugar diets can help with treating some cancers such as brain cancer and some others. There are some cancers that use fats as a fuel very well, and although those are not a majority, you would want to know your cancer before adjusting your diet to treat it. It can also be complementary to more common cancer treatments such as radiation and chemo, and helps reduce cancer cachexia.

It is thought that limiting or avoiding refined carbohydrates may help with cancer prevention but that is not well researched or proven.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

About all they have shown so far is that the low fat diet of yesteryear does not seem to help prevent CVD or cancer, at least in the types that they looked at.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2006/02/09/low-fat-diet-not-a-cure-all-womens-health-initiative/

What *aggravates* me are the people, or groups or documentaries who try to push cancer patients away from "big pharma" to a "one twue way" natural approach to treatment because big pharma just wants to keep them sick, keep them chronically ill, knows that natural remedies work but would never admit that. I see it so often and I heard it so much when I was ill. Eat a plant based diet, it will cure you. Take high doses of vitamin C, it will cure you. Drink mangosteen juice, it will cure you. DON'T use chemo, it's just poison.

I have no problem with your studies listed. I have no problem if an oncologist suggests, or if a cancer patient on their own decides they want to do a diet in conjuction with treatment. My problem (and I did not watch the documentary, I can only go by what the OP stated) is that in this documentary some person comes out and claims their cancer is cured by a way of eating without any medical treatment. To that I say....show me medical records or it didn't happen. Or that person was misdiagnosed and never had cancer to begin with.

nvmomketo · April 2018

YvetteK2015 wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Low sugar diets can help with treating some cancers such as brain cancer and some others. There are some cancers that use fats as a fuel very well, and although those are not a majority, you would want to know your cancer before adjusting your diet to treat it. It can also be complementary to more common cancer treatments such as radiation and chemo, and helps reduce cancer cachexia.

It is thought that limiting or avoiding refined carbohydrates may help with cancer prevention but that is not well researched or proven.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

About all they have shown so far is that the low fat diet of yesteryear does not seem to help prevent CVD or cancer, at least in the types that they looked at.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2006/02/09/low-fat-diet-not-a-cure-all-womens-health-initiative/

What *aggravates* me are the people, or groups or documentaries who try to push cancer patients away from "big pharma" to a "one twue way" natural approach to treatment because big pharma just wants to keep them sick, keep them chronically ill, knows that natural remedies work but would never admit that. I see it so often and I heard it so much when I was ill. Eat a plant based diet, it will cure you. Take high doses of vitamin C, it will cure you. Drink mangosteen juice, it will cure you. DON'T use chemo, it's just poison.

I have no problem with your studies listed. I have no problem if an oncologist suggests, or if a cancer patient on their own decides they want to do a diet in conjuction with treatment. My problem (and I did not watch the documentary, I can only go by what the OP stated) is that in this documentary some person comes out and claims their cancer is cured by a way of eating without any medical treatment. To that I say....show me medical records or it didn't happen. Or that person was misdiagnosed and never had cancer to begin with.

I agree. I doubt there are many nutritional therapies that cure cancer outright, if any.

I do see more possibilities in prevention and nutrition. That seems hopeful.

jflongo · April 2018

There have been studies on mice and Keto regarding cancer with some good results. I don't believe there are any long term true studies for humans though. Personally, if I was diagnosed, I would certainly consider Keto though as a possible help.

YvetteK2015 · April 2018

nvmomketo wrote: »

YvetteK2015 wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Low sugar diets can help with treating some cancers such as brain cancer and some others. There are some cancers that use fats as a fuel very well, and although those are not a majority, you would want to know your cancer before adjusting your diet to treat it. It can also be complementary to more common cancer treatments such as radiation and chemo, and helps reduce cancer cachexia.

It is thought that limiting or avoiding refined carbohydrates may help with cancer prevention but that is not well researched or proven.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

About all they have shown so far is that the low fat diet of yesteryear does not seem to help prevent CVD or cancer, at least in the types that they looked at.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2006/02/09/low-fat-diet-not-a-cure-all-womens-health-initiative/

What *aggravates* me are the people, or groups or documentaries who try to push cancer patients away from "big pharma" to a "one twue way" natural approach to treatment because big pharma just wants to keep them sick, keep them chronically ill, knows that natural remedies work but would never admit that. I see it so often and I heard it so much when I was ill. Eat a plant based diet, it will cure you. Take high doses of vitamin C, it will cure you. Drink mangosteen juice, it will cure you. DON'T use chemo, it's just poison.

I have no problem with your studies listed. I have no problem if an oncologist suggests, or if a cancer patient on their own decides they want to do a diet in conjuction with treatment. My problem (and I did not watch the documentary, I can only go by what the OP stated) is that in this documentary some person comes out and claims their cancer is cured by a way of eating without any medical treatment. To that I say....show me medical records or it didn't happen. Or that person was misdiagnosed and never had cancer to begin with.

I agree. I doubt there are many nutritional therapies that cure cancer outright, if any.

I do see more possibilities in prevention and nutrition. That seems hopeful.

I 100% agree.

OhCaroleM · April 2018

Oh my strong opinions! Didn't mean to step into a hornets nest. I just think that the Dr. Ludwig has some interesting points about how sugar is metabolized. I think there may be some truth to the vicious cycle we can get into when eating too many empty calories. But feel free to disagree!

I do think that empty calories from added sugars don't help anyone. Eating real food is so much better for our bodies! I also follow CICO, but when I eat foods that are filling and nutritious I feel better.

BTW I certaintly do NOT think that a keto diet will cure cancer. I personally cared for and watched both of my parents struggle with cancer, my father died and my mother had multiple surgeries but died for other reasons. God bless anyone going through a tough treatment. As far as I am concerned cancer is hard enough without worrying about foods. Cancer patients get a free pass in my book to eat whatever they want and can tolerate. If I had cancer I would go straight to the nearest cancer center and get the best oncologist for the type of cancer I had, but patients should seek the treatment from doctors they most trust. Then I'd have a hot fudge sundae to commiserate my diagnosis.

crabbybrianna · April 2018

I knew someone with cancer who ate keto, and she died. I also knew someone with cancer who was a lifelong whole foods vegan. Also died. I hear the same things from keto people and vegans to people with cancer (and pretty much every other illness, tbh). Just eat this way and your cancer will be gone! It doesn’t work like that.

My grandfather had cancer for about 15 years. At one point I’m his illness the only thing he could keep down was homemade chocolate chip cookies, and getting all of his calories from that is a lot better than not eating anything at all. Pretty sure he would have starved to death.

OhCaroleM · April 2018

crabbybrianna wrote: »

At one point I’m his illness the only thing he could keep down was homemade chocolate chip cookies, and getting all of his calories from that is a lot better than not eating anything at all. Pretty sure he would have starved to death.

Right, free pass to eat whatever keeps them going. My dad went from 150 lbs to 98 before he died. We encouraged the poor soul to eat anything he wanted.

YvetteK2015 · April 2018

jflongo wrote: »

There have been studies on mice and Keto regarding cancer with some good results. I don't believe there are any long term true studies for humans though. Personally, if I was diagnosed, I would certainly consider Keto though as a possible help.

Chemo is pure poison running through you. Killing not just malignant cells but healthy cells. Truly I don't know if keto adds any help in killing cancer cells once you have poison in your body, but I know my chemo outweighed any glycogen from carbs feeding my tumors. Cancer is funny like that. You eat what you can handle sometimes....not necessarily what you want to be having.

psuLemon · April 2018

OhCaroleM wrote: »

I suggest you watch a video on YouTube by Dr. Robert Ludwig. He talks about a condition called "Metabolic Syndrome" that is somewhat of a vicious cycle where basically body insulin gets out of balance and the body processes blood sugar into fat, with much of it going to the liver. The body gets somewhat dependent the cycle and when sugar intake is reduced (as with dieting) the body signals the brain and increases appetite. So people eat more and it sabbotages diets. It's a very difficult cycle to break hence many people experience yoyo dieting.

My understanding is that someone experiencing the syndrome may have the best success by VERY gradual weight loss.

Dr. Ludwig paints a pretty bleak picture, but there are many people here on MFP that have overcome, many success stories to motivate you.

Dr. Ludwig has some of the worst controls in his "experiments". Often, they are short, have very few participants, and don't have a control group. Most of what he preaches are theories. Personally, he is an MD. MD's have very little to no training in biochemistry and/or nutritional science. If anything, you are better off following leading professionals in the field, such as: Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, Dr. Layne Norton, Dr. Eric Helms, Dr. Bret Contreras, Alan Aragon, etc... What you will notice is all of these people are fit, actually work with clients, hold records in body building/power lifting, are educated in the field, and all are published researchers. Something that cannot be said about many other doctors.

In all reality, sugars rarely convert to fat. De Novo Lipogenesis studies suggest the rate at which carbs/sugars are converted to body fat is roughly 10 to 20%. Dietary fat is more likely going to convert. What generally occurs with carbs, is they are oxidized immediately for energy or stored as glycogen (mostly in the liver). Where there is some truth to what Dr. Ludwig states, is fructose does metabolize slightly differently. Fructose, unlike glucose, processes in the liver. Its a normal bodily function. What is an issue is when you are in continuous energy surpluses and become over fat. So overloading your system and liver can lead to fatty liver disease and/or "metabolic syndrome". But maintaining a healthy weight and exercise provides the best impact on ones health and prevention to diseases.

OP, if you look at some of the work that Dom D'agostino has done, you will get some good insight. You can't say it works for all types of cancers, but there is some evidence (mostly in animal models) that it can be helpful inconjunction with proven treatments. It certainly is not a replacement for chemo or medications.

AnnPT77 · April 2018

I'll continue taking cancer treatment advice from my oncology team and other mainstream sources, thanks. Since I'm still alive and thriving 17 years after a stage III (locally advanced) breast cancer diagnosis, I figure they must know something.

Similarly, I'll take my general nutritional advice from mainstream science-based sources, not silly advocacy documentaries. It's worked reasonably well for 62 years, so far.

Calorie counting worked very well for me when I decided to lose weight, too.

I guess I'm just a traditionalist stick in the mud, ignoring "the truth" that all those mainstream sources try to hide from us. But I'm a thin, alive, healthy, 62-year-old stick in the mud, so . . . .

Djproulx · April 2018

nvmomketo wrote: »

YvetteK2015 wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Low sugar diets can help with treating some cancers such as brain cancer and some others. There are some cancers that use fats as a fuel very well, and although those are not a majority, you would want to know your cancer before adjusting your diet to treat it. It can also be complementary to more common cancer treatments such as radiation and chemo, and helps reduce cancer cachexia.

It is thought that limiting or avoiding refined carbohydrates may help with cancer prevention but that is not well researched or proven.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267662/

About all they have shown so far is that the low fat diet of yesteryear does not seem to help prevent CVD or cancer, at least in the types that they looked at.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2006/02/09/low-fat-diet-not-a-cure-all-womens-health-initiative/

What *aggravates* me are the people, or groups or documentaries who try to push cancer patients away from "big pharma" to a "one twue way" natural approach to treatment because big pharma just wants to keep them sick, keep them chronically ill, knows that natural remedies work but would never admit that. I see it so often and I heard it so much when I was ill. Eat a plant based diet, it will cure you. Take high doses of vitamin C, it will cure you. Drink mangosteen juice, it will cure you. DON'T use chemo, it's just poison.

I have no problem with your studies listed. I have no problem if an oncologist suggests, or if a cancer patient on their own decides they want to do a diet in conjuction with treatment. My problem (and I did not watch the documentary, I can only go by what the OP stated) is that in this documentary some person comes out and claims their cancer is cured by a way of eating without any medical treatment. To that I say....show me medical records or it didn't happen. Or that person was misdiagnosed and never had cancer to begin with.

I agree. I doubt there are many nutritional therapies that cure cancer outright, if any.

I do see more possibilities in prevention and nutrition. That seems hopeful.

^^ I agree. I'm no health expert, but the work of Dr Valter Longo of USC is very interesting to me. His studies on aging, nutrition and disease among various long lived populations led him to propose a largely vegan & fish based diet, that when supplemented with periodic fasting (twice annually) seems to reduce risks for various diseases, including cancer.

Weight loss and weight management are only one facet of his suggested approach to healthy longevity. His clinical studies of mice that showed how fasting for several days prior to and during chemotherapy provided dramatic improvements in treatment effectiveness and survival rates were fascinating to me.

orangegato · April 2018

I know a couple of people w/ cancer who ate a ketogenic diet in addition to their chemo and it didn't help. Not only did their cancer recur or progress, but when they lost a ton of weight they didn't seem to have the energy to handle their chemo as well as others.

kpsyche · April 2018

psuLemon wrote: »

In all reality, sugars rarely convert to fat.

If you are not exercising then sugars are almost always converted to fat (triglicerides). Even if you are exercising excess sugars are converted to fat more easily then to anything else so this is what happens.

Sugar and Cancer

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