Good Food, Bad Food
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Tbh I feel like this entire argument is just semantics. I once made a post a couple years ago asking for low calorie junk food and I got torn apart for using that term. Which I think is silly. I agree with the general concept that there isn’t “good” food or “bad” food. It’s about having a “good” or balanced diet overall and getting your nutrition requirements. If I ate all broccoli I’m sure I would have unpleasant side effects too. However skittles are certainly not very nutritious.
Even if a discussion is about semantics, that doesn't mean it isn't necessarily worth having.
Words and the various meanings we attach to them can profoundly shape how we see the world. In this thread we've seen people post about how altering how they applied certain (semantical) categories to food actually changed how they chose what to eat. That, to me, indicates that this is a conversation worth having (at least for some people).12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Also, OP seemed to think that not using the term "bad food" means you don't pay attention to nutrition, which is just odd.
Just my personal experience: since letting go of the good/bad food distinctions, I find I think about nutrition more and more thoughtfully because instead of just eating things because they are "good" or avoiding them because they're "bad," I'm actually planning meals based on my overall needs.
(Not saying this is the only way to think about nutrition, but it's certainly worked for me).
But you still make choices and pick some foods instead of others, because, as you say, you're more thoughtful about it.
For me, distinguishing between what will fill me up for the calories and what won't (which I put in the 'good' or 'bad' category) is definitely a tool that is necessary for meal planning (which is a skill that OP seems to be lacking lol). I mean, technically, eating 3 cookies will never be 'good' for my diet because I'll be hungry later.
I absolutely choose some foods more often than others or in different quantities than others. It's just not due to good/bad judgments but things like satiety, cost, flavor preferences, the context of other food choices I've made recently, the type of training plan I'm currently in, the amount of time I have available, and what others around me may be eating.
I think virtually everyone does this (makes choices about what to eat), it doesn't mean that one believes there are "bad" foods.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »acorsaut89 wrote: »I once read in a book, called Mindless Eating, that humans don't actually consume calories . . . we consume volume. And in my experience, both with my own weight loss struggles and friends who are on the latest "fad" diet, conventionally "bad" foods tend to be foods that offer large amounts of calories for the volume our brains deem to be adequate for us.
This is conventional thought, and for many of us it's true.
I think it only goes so far, though. For example, many who do keto or low carb and find it helpful are replacing higher volume with smaller, more caloric volume (high fat) and yet finding it more satisfying.
I'm more of a volume eater, but I found eating a bit higher fat to be really helpful for me, since I don't have much problem feeling sated, but I get unsatisfied on a low fat diet over time, and am far less likely to want to say "screw it" and go off my own plan when I have more fat on average, even though that decreases volume some. I will find a dinner more satisfying with a smaller portion of pasta or potatoes and a bit more fat (lots of veg and sufficient protein in either case).
Also, it doesn't seem that people DO use "bad food" consistently for foods that are high cal/low volume. Olive oil is one good example that usually doesn't get classed as such.
That's why I said bad foods tend to foods that offer large amounts of calories and low volumes. A lot of people don't think about oils they use for cooking the food in, just what they can see in front of them.
re: Those who do keto and can stay on it, I'll have to take your word because I don't follow a keto diet. However, I have had many experiences with friends who do it for about 3 or 4 weeks and then fall off and repeat cycle. I follow an everything in moderation view of life . . . so I've never tried low carb. This was, of course, my experience with weight loss.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Also, OP seemed to think that not using the term "bad food" means you don't pay attention to nutrition, which is just odd.
Just my personal experience: since letting go of the good/bad food distinctions, I find I think about nutrition more and more thoughtfully because instead of just eating things because they are "good" or avoiding them because they're "bad," I'm actually planning meals based on my overall needs.
(Not saying this is the only way to think about nutrition, but it's certainly worked for me).
But you still make choices and pick some foods instead of others, because, as you say, you're more thoughtful about it.
For me, distinguishing between what will fill me up for the calories and what won't (which I put in the 'good' or 'bad' category) is definitely a tool that is necessary for meal planning (which is a skill that OP seems to be lacking lol). I mean, technically, eating 3 cookies will never be 'good' for my diet because I'll be hungry later.
I think it's perfectly fair to have personal food rules or guidelines and I don't really care if people share a philosophy about food that's similar to mine. I think the problems occur when you start implying that everyone else is in denial if they don't follow a good/bad mindset, as you did. Food and food feelings are often very strong and very personal, especially on a weight loss board. Surely there's room for more nuance than foods are good and bad and you're in denial if you disagree.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I guess bad = does not help me meet nutritional needs other than calories, but I don't see why that makes something bad. That's like defining activities that help me make money as good and all others as bad and then saying that spending the day working in my flower garden or reading a novel = bad, since I could have been doing other activities that would have been more profitable.
But I don't really care. I do think there are good and bad diets, of course.
Bad = being on MFP when I should be working in my garden
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As has been pointed out earlier, context and dosage matter. We are encouraged to drink lots of water. If we are trapped in an environment that is 100% water it's deadly. We seem to get into the same all or nothing types of arguments here.
I have finally found an approach to food that I can sustain for the rest of my life. I don't see foods as "healthy" vs "bad" anymore, mainly because I used to internalize that as "can eat" vs "shouldn't eat". At some point I would eat a "bad" food and feel guilt. Now I just see choices.
With that said - I am making more and more healthy choices. But that's the thing - I get to make the choice. Lunch was provided at work today for teacher appreciation week. The meal was ok in terms of nutritional quality. I just served myself an appropriate amount. Then there was the chocolate lava cake... And I had some.
But.
Instead of the huge 500 - 700 calorie servings I saw others consuming I had a small serving and literally ate about three bites. I estimated it at about 150 calories. It was a "bad" food without much nutrition, but those three bites made me happy and didn't bust my calorie budget. They also won't derail my pursuit of fitness.
It's a balanced approach that works for me. YMMV11 -
For me, distinguishing between what will fill me up for the calories and what won't (which I put in the 'good' or 'bad' category) is definitely a tool that is necessary for meal planning (which is a skill that OP seems to be lacking lol). I mean, technically, eating 3 cookies will never be 'good' for my diet because I'll be hungry later.
I think it is very possible to have good and bad food on a personal level. Jerky is widely considered a good high protein snack but for me it makes me incredibly hungry and that is not good. I only want to personally use that distinction for foods that trigger that type of response though or in case of medical conditions. I don't eat high fiber foods at night because I have acid reflux. High fiber foods are good at lunch and bad for dinner. These foods are not universally bad just bad for me either completely or situationally.
I look at my meal planning a little differently so I am not in the kitchen making judgement calls on food. For one thing I have a weekly template and another I typically know at least 24 hours in advance what I will be eating most days. My weekly template takes care of what I perceive I need in nutritional variety and then I fill in the gaps. It is more like I need to eat XYZ so I am comfortable having the treat stuff. So if I am having a sandwich I might add some Doritos to it.
ETA: I just realized what I do is a form of "eat your vegetables or no dessert" except I do it on a weekly basis not meal by meal and sometimes the whole meal is the "dessert".1 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I guess bad = does not help me meet nutritional needs other than calories, but I don't see why that makes something bad. That's like defining activities that help me make money as good and all others as bad and then saying that spending the day working in my flower garden or reading a novel = bad, since I could have been doing other activities that would have been more profitable.
But I don't really care. I do think there are good and bad diets, of course.
Bad = being on MFP when I should be working in my garden
;-)0 -
garystrickland357 wrote: »
Instead of the huge 500 - 700 calorie servings I saw others consuming I had a small serving and literally ate about three bites. I estimated it at about 150 calories. It was a "bad" food without much nutrition, but those three bites made me happy and didn't bust my calorie budget. They also won't derail my pursuit of fitness.
Letting go of "good/bad" freed me up to make more decisions like this.
Past me would pick up the cake, interpret that as being "bad," and figure I might as well eat the whole thing. I mean, when you're breaking the rules, you're breaking the rules, right?
Today I'm more likely to pick up the cake (if it appeals) and know that an entire piece is going to be way more calories than I want to have, but a few bites will fit just fine. So I have a few bites.
(I'm not saying that everyone who thinks some foods are "bad" is eating the whole slice of cake, but that's the way it worked too often with me).8 -
Bricks are a bad food. Tires are a bad food. Food food is just somewhere on a multi-dimensional scatter diagram of nutrients, macros, personal preference, satiety, etc.6
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janejellyroll wrote: »Letting go of "good/bad" freed me up to make more decisions like this.
Past me would pick up the cake, interpret that as being "bad," and figure I might as well eat the whole thing. I mean, when you're breaking the rules, you're breaking the rules, right?
Today I'm more likely to pick up the cake (if it appeals) and know that an entire piece is going to be way more calories than I want to have, but a few bites will fit just fine. So I have a few bites.
(I'm not saying that everyone who thinks some foods are "bad" is eating the whole slice of cake, but that's the way it worked too often with me).
You knew I would have to respond to this... grrrrrr
Cake IS bad. Pie IS good.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Letting go of "good/bad" freed me up to make more decisions like this.
Past me would pick up the cake, interpret that as being "bad," and figure I might as well eat the whole thing. I mean, when you're breaking the rules, you're breaking the rules, right?
Today I'm more likely to pick up the cake (if it appeals) and know that an entire piece is going to be way more calories than I want to have, but a few bites will fit just fine. So I have a few bites.
(I'm not saying that everyone who thinks some foods are "bad" is eating the whole slice of cake, but that's the way it worked too often with me).
You knew I would have to respond to this... grrrrrr
Cake IS bad. Pie IS good. 4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »garystrickland357 wrote: »
Instead of the huge 500 - 700 calorie servings I saw others consuming I had a small serving and literally ate about three bites. I estimated it at about 150 calories. It was a "bad" food without much nutrition, but those three bites made me happy and didn't bust my calorie budget. They also won't derail my pursuit of fitness.
Letting go of "good/bad" freed me up to make more decisions like this.
Past me would pick up the cake, interpret that as being "bad," and figure I might as well eat the whole thing. I mean, when you're breaking the rules, you're breaking the rules, right?
Today I'm more likely to pick up the cake (if it appeals) and know that an entire piece is going to be way more calories than I want to have, but a few bites will fit just fine. So I have a few bites.
(I'm not saying that everyone who thinks some foods are "bad" is eating the whole slice of cake, but that's the way it worked too often with me).
It's interesting though. For me it's absolutely the distinction between good and bad that makes me stop eating too much of the bad choice.0 -
It's very easy to construct an overall diet that is unbalanced. Your OP is an excellent example of an unbalanced diet -- you were lacking protein, fiber and micronutrients. But saying "you should eat a varied diet that provides adequate macro and micronutrients" is not at all the same as saying "you shouldn't incorporate foods that are less nutrient-dense than others." People tend to confuse those points, and I think this discussion is confusing those points, although your OP also includes an example of why you feel fine when you're eating a varied diet but also incorporate some treats.
What the OP really seems to be illustrating is that you can incorporate SOME "bad" foods, but you can't EXCLUSIVELY eat "bad" foods. I don't think you'll find anyone here who would argue that you can be objectively healthy over the long term while eating exclusively "bad" foods.
(Note that I'm only using the phrase "bad foods" because it's used in the OP. I'm of the opinion that the only bad foods are trans fats, spoiled foods, and foods to which you are personally allergic.)7 -
Bricks are a bad food. Tires are a bad food. Food food is just somewhere on a multi-dimensional scatter diagram of nutrients, macros, personal preference, satiety, etc.
Yes to the multi-dimensional scatter diagram.
"Good food" and "bad food" sets up a single, linear scale. It's too oversimplified to be helpful, in my personal way of thinking.
There are foods that are low calorie, not very nutrient dense, and high volume. There are foods that are high calorie, very nutrient dense and low volume. You can mix and match those 3 characteristics (calories, nutrients, volume) and more (tastiness, match to current day's nutritional gaps, comfort, social satisfaction, convenience, etc.) in dozens of different combinations.
If one's cognitive style is to simplify, and the emotional/psychological implications of the terms aren't an issue (the bad = sin thing), then maybe "good" and "bad" work. But it's not how my brain works.
Anytime you go beyond talking/thinking about actual real-world things you can point at, you're in a world of semantics (via abstractions). If you eschew semantics, you're not going to have a very large scope of things you can discuss.
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diannethegeek wrote: »I suppose I'll tell my story.
When I was in the heart of dieting, the really deep part where I had lost the easy weight and was chipping away at the harder stuff and having a hell of a time with it, I developed some control issues with food. I would panic at parties and restaurants because I couldn't log the food accurately. I broke into tears at a world-renowned burger place because they didn't have the quinoa burger I had prelogged and I didn't know how to adjust my plans without it. I was spiraling because I felt like I was surrounded by all of these bad, heavy foods and there was something wrong with me because I couldn't say no to them. Food became my enemy unless it was the right kind of food, the kind I had full control over.
Fortunately, my therapist caught it early and we worked hard to keep it from developing into a full-fledged eating disorder. But part of that work was to stop seeing foods in terms of good and bad. I believe in balanced diets and unbalanced diets, foods that fit into your goals and foods that don't, foods that make me feel better and foods that make me feel worse. I believe in looking at the big picture of a diet, concentrating on what I want to include instead of what I feel like I have to remove, and having chill food guidelines that I can stick to without stressing. I don't believe in good foods vs. bad ones.
But everyone approaches food differently. I just refuse to travel back down that particular rabbit hole.
I went through a similar phase/issue a couple of years ago when losing weight for my wedding. It was during the time when "clean eating" was popular and all over social media.
I had a mini meltdown because I "had" to eat out for dinner the second time that week, which also interfered with my workout schedule, because of social celebrations. Eating "clean" more to me than catching up with friends and family. I luckly realised how unhealthy this was and worked on my personal relationship with food and lifestyle.
I really hate food labels, even if some food are have a higher nutritional value because it can lead to unhealthy relationship with food.
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How about “expensive” foods like butter, almond butter, or mayonnaise? I watch these carefully because they add up quickly.
Laughing cow light cream cheese wedges go well with Doritos.
A great salad is even better with a few sunflower seeds and ranch dressing.3 -
tropicalchicy wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »I suppose I'll tell my story.
When I was in the heart of dieting, the really deep part where I had lost the easy weight and was chipping away at the harder stuff and having a hell of a time with it, I developed some control issues with food. I would panic at parties and restaurants because I couldn't log the food accurately. I broke into tears at a world-renowned burger place because they didn't have the quinoa burger I had prelogged and I didn't know how to adjust my plans without it. I was spiraling because I felt like I was surrounded by all of these bad, heavy foods and there was something wrong with me because I couldn't say no to them. Food became my enemy unless it was the right kind of food, the kind I had full control over.
Fortunately, my therapist caught it early and we worked hard to keep it from developing into a full-fledged eating disorder. But part of that work was to stop seeing foods in terms of good and bad. I believe in balanced diets and unbalanced diets, foods that fit into your goals and foods that don't, foods that make me feel better and foods that make me feel worse. I believe in looking at the big picture of a diet, concentrating on what I want to include instead of what I feel like I have to remove, and having chill food guidelines that I can stick to without stressing. I don't believe in good foods vs. bad ones.
But everyone approaches food differently. I just refuse to travel back down that particular rabbit hole.
I went through a similar phase/issue a couple of years ago when losing weight for my wedding. It was during the time when "clean eating" was popular and all over social media.
I had a mini meltdown because I "had" to eat out for dinner the second time that week, which also interfered with my workout schedule, because of social celebrations. Eating "clean" more to me than catching up with friends and family. I luckly realised how unhealthy this was and worked on my personal relationship with food and lifestyle.
I really hate food labels, even if some food are have a higher nutritional value because it can lead to unhealthy relationship with food.
Eating out or meeting with friends was a huge issue too but not because of 'good' or 'bad' food... because of high calorie foods and lower calorie options not always being available (and I'm not going to be THAT person who's never happy with what people want to eat either). Again, for ME, good/bad, that's just semantics and it doesn't affect much. I DO feel bad when I eat higher calorie foods because, honestly, I'm a hungry person and it's always hard to fit in for me - and if it's for dinner, it's guaranteed to put me over for the day (I'm always hungrier during the day). Feeling bad about it is what keeps me on track.
That being said, I let go of the guilt and anxiety about eating with my friends, and I've gained 20 lbs back in the last 2 years. I'm happier in my every day life for sure, but really not happy with my look anymore. It's a hard balance. I really DO need the 'I shouldn't eat this' mentality if I want to stay on track, unfortunately.0 -
I don't understand how calling something a "bad food" is more useful in managing a desire to eat it than, say, thinking that it's X calories and not filling at all to me, and if I eat it I'll have X fewer calories to spend on something else and also have to still meet my protein and micronutrient goals (which are things I think about even when not logging).
But I do suspect it works differently for different people, as Ann said (and I think my mind works more like hers).
I know I have tendencies in the direction that janejellyroll mentioned -- if I think of food as good and bad and bad as off limits, then if I eat something classified as bad I'm likely to decide I ruined the day so eh, might as well go nuts. I don't do that much now, since I've worked on making my thoughts about food more logical, but it was a real issue.
That I don't think of cheese as bad doesn't mean I'm not aware of how caloric it is (although as noted above satiety isn't actually an issue, I always want to eat because I like food, not that I perceive myself as being uncontrollably hungry).4 -
I agree. There was a time when pizza was "bad" and if I ate a slice of it I might as well eat my fill. Now that pizza is good and I need to temper my intake I eat a big salad and wait for a bit to indulge. When carb heavy treats were bad it was the same thing. Now that they are good I plan to have enough protein with them to keep them from cycling my hunger.
Taking the guilt component out allows me to approach the food more sensibly.5
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