Weight loss and hyperthyroidism
Devondumpling72
Posts: 20 Member
Today I have been diagnosed with an underactive thyroid and have been put on 75mg levothyroxine. I am struggling with weight loss at the moment, it is coming off but very slow and disheartening.
Does anyone know if once my thyroid is under control weight loss becomes a little easier. I am always within my calories and keep within macros too. If it stays so slow it's something i will have to live with but I'm hoping it will sort itself out.
Does anyone know if once my thyroid is under control weight loss becomes a little easier. I am always within my calories and keep within macros too. If it stays so slow it's something i will have to live with but I'm hoping it will sort itself out.
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Replies
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What do you mean by slow? In general, weight loss is a slow process, but yes hypothyroid can make it a tad bit slower. Once your thyroid hormones are in check it should be a bit easier, but 75 mg is not a very high dose, so it doesn't sound like your thyroid is too out of check.
I also have hypothyroid, and I did lose a bit of weight when I started medication, but mostly water, as the condition can cause you to retain a lot of water. It also helped with my energy levels a lot, which helped me be more active. However, I was only about 60 kg (130ish lbs) when I was diagnosed and I take a higher dose of levothyroxine than you, so I wouldn't expect dramatic difference.1 -
That's strange, I thought hyperthyroidism causes weight loss on its own. Are you sure you aren't hypothyroid ? And you said under active thyroid implying hypothyroid... hyperthyroid would be an over active thyroid.
I don't have experience with hyperthyroid, but I've had hashimotos hypothyroidism since I was 10 years old. Once I was started on my medication the weight just fell off me and I've never had trouble losing weight with exercise and healthy eating habits. I don't care for levox. However, and many people I've met only do well on the name brand Synthroid. If you aren't seeing results in a few months and still feel run down and tired I'd get with a specialist and try T3 + T4 name brand Synthroid and Cytomel. You should also be taking selenium supplements. The worst part of the disease for me is always being cold. I have to wear winter boots and a coat during the middle of a FL summer.3 -
Wow, 75 is a high starting dose! You might feel rather restless and maybe your heart might be beating a big faster when you first take it. I'd think most GPs start with about 25 or 50, then see the patient again after 6 weeks and see how to go on. Other than that: no, being hypo does not prevent you from losing weight. Not using a food scale and logging incorrectly does though.0
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That would be hyPOthyroid. Hyper is too active - and if it is underactive, it's Hypo.
I've been under treatment for hypothyroid for decades. It mostly affects appetite, because I felt lethargic and depressed and instinctively wanted to eat for more energy and moodiness when I was untreated - so in that way yes, weight loss is easier when treated. The amount of food needed for weight loss doesn't really change much (50-100 calories or so a day for women,) so you'll just have to dial in your food accuracy.
Give it three months and keep getting those blood draws when recommended. It's really common with women, easy to treat, inexpensive meds. Not a biggie.6 -
One of the symptoms of hypothyroidism is weight gain because metabolism slows down with inadequate thyroid levels. Yes, getting your thyroid level corrected will help with weight loss...but it's not magic, you still have the do the work of healthy food choices and being active. You can do it! Good luck and be well.8
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It's hypo. Hyper you would lose a ton. I've been both. Been without a thyroid 20 years. Lost 20 pounds being hyper then gained a ton!!!! Then successfully Lost 55 pounds after removal. It can be done, makes no difference if TSH is in the normal range. Track food and exercise! Be patient Uggghhh. I can't believe I said that cause it's sooooo frustrating.0
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Yes sorry auto correct was a bit keen and I didn't check it first. It's hypothyroidism not hyper. Starting dose 75 levothyroxine as of today. From what I can see the starting dose is between 50-100 so go went midway. I religiously weigh and log, fluid average is 2lt of water each day. I exercise too even though I feel so tired most of the time I force myself to go to a class. I'm hoping my metabolism goes back to where it should be soon, got bloods in 8 weeks to check levels, also kidney function as that's a bit high too. Oh the joys!0
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First of all your thyroid acts as a minor influencer on metabolism. From clinical review it appears to impact REE by ~5% and that is in total thyroidectomy patients going from full supplementation to no supplementation. The only weight gain associated with hypothyroidism is water weight and this is known with all hormonal shifts.
This equates to ~80 kcal/day out of a 1600 kcal/day caloric budget.
What thyroid disorders may impact are you appetite and satiety levels, making you crave food when you are not hungry.
I've been sans thyroid for 18 years. I put on ~70 lbs over 14 years initially, but I transitioned from a high active military career to a cushy desk job in academia and had no clue of my caloric intake/output. I was introduced to MFP in 2014 and lost 60 lbs the first year.7 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »Today I have been diagnosed with an underactive thyroid and have been put on 75mg levothyroxine. I am struggling with weight loss at the moment, it is coming off but very slow and disheartening.
Does anyone know if once my thyroid is under control weight loss becomes a little easier. I am always within my calories and keep within macros too. If it stays so slow it's something i will have to live with but I'm hoping it will sort itself out.
@CSARdiver knows more than most on this subject
HYPOTHYROIDISM (not hyper.. that is opposite) means you might need to eat about 100 calories LESS per day than someone with a "normal" thyroid.
One. Hundred. Calories. That is all the difference it makes.
Less than one can of a Coca-Cola each day. About half of one, actually.
Even if you were some sort of extreme genetic case, it would not even mean a 200 calorie difference each day.
But 75mg Levothyroxine per day is almost half of the max dosage I've seen so you are not some sort of special genetic snowflake.
Regardless, people blaming their "thyroid condition" for weight gain or trouble "losing weight" are just eating too much and training too little.
Poor eating habits, ineffective and/or inefficient training (or even worse, not enough activity or "exercise"), and ignoring proper nutrition are the causes of your excess body fat, not your "thyroid".
You are eating more than you need to, no matter if you realize it -or believe it- or not.
It also does not matter how "hungry" you think you are/feel or if you eat for "emotional reasons".
Stop eating more than necessary and stop making excuses not to do the work.
As for "slow and disheartening", get used to it. It took years to weigh what you do now.
Be happy with consistently losing 1 pound per week, on average.
That means weigh yourself every day, add up all of the weights for the week and divide by seven.
If that average is not trending downward after 3 or 4 weeks, then adjust your calories by 200 or so.
This is work that you have to do yourself. There is no magic pill, TV gimmick, or MLM scam that will do it for you.
You might think you are hungry. Too bad. Drink a glass of water and go do something.
Eat within your calorie allowance every day and stop making excuses.
Continue to weigh, average, and adjust until you hit your goal weight.
If you are 50 pounds too heavy then don't expect to lose that much fat for at least 50 weeks.
In other words, 50 pounds can take a year or more to lose.
If you wanted to lose the excess fat sooner then you should have starting fixing your training and nutrition years ago.
That is on you. It is all about the choices you make.
Start with the things you are scared of, imagine to be hard, and/or make excuses NOT to do if you want real, lasting results:
https://www.amazon.com/Thinner-Leaner-Stronger-Building-Ultimate/dp/1938895312
The "weight loss becomes a little easier" only once you are disciplined enough to do what you need to do instead of what you want to do.
Doing what was "easier" is what caused your body to store more fat than you need.
Stop thinking in terms of "easier" and start thinking about "necessary".
"Woo" means "too good to be true"4 -
DorothyEldridgeBalash wrote: »One of the symptoms of hypothyroidism is weight gain because metabolism slows down with inadequate thyroid levels. Yes, getting your thyroid level corrected will help with weight loss...but it's not magic, you still have the do the work of healthy food choices and being active. You can do it! Good luck and be well.
The slow down is potentially permanent, but has been measured to be only 4% maximum of BMI. That's nothing. But taking the right meds will reduce water weight that often increases with being hypo, will give more energy and potentially a higher TDEE including more fidgeting and will decrease hunger.2 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »Today I have been diagnosed with an underactive thyroid and have been put on 75mg levothyroxine. I am struggling with weight loss at the moment, it is coming off but very slow and disheartening.
Does anyone know if once my thyroid is under control weight loss becomes a little easier. I am always within my calories and keep within macros too. If it stays so slow it's something i will have to live with but I'm hoping it will sort itself out.
@CSARdiver knows more than most on this subject
HYPOTHYROIDISM (not hyper.. that is opposite) means you might need to eat about 100 calories LESS per day than someone with a "normal" thyroid.
One. Hundred. Calories. That is all the difference it makes.
Less than one can of a Coca-Cola each day. About half of one, actually.
Even if you were some sort of extreme genetic case, it would not even mean a 200 calorie difference each day.
But 75mg Levothyroxine per day is almost half of the max dosage I've seen so you are not some sort of special genetic snowflake.
Regardless, people blaming their "thyroid condition" for weight gain or trouble "losing weight" are just eating too much and training too little.
Poor eating habits, ineffective and/or inefficient training (or even worse, not enough activity or "exercise"), and ignoring proper nutrition are the causes of your excess body fat, not your "thyroid".
You are eating more than you need to, no matter if you realize it -or believe it- or not.
It also does not matter how "hungry" you think you are/feel or if you eat for "emotional reasons".
Stop eating more than necessary and stop making excuses not to do the work.
As for "slow and disheartening", get used to it. It took years to weigh what you do now.
Be happy with consistently losing 1 pound per week, on average.
That means weigh yourself every day, add up all of the weights for the week and divide by seven.
If that average is not trending downward after 3 or 4 weeks, then adjust your calories by 200 or so.
This is work that you have to do yourself. There is no magic pill, TV gimmick, or MLM scam that will do it for you.
You might think you are hungry. Too bad. Drink a glass of water and go do something.
Eat within your calorie allowance every day and stop making excuses.
Continue to weigh, average, and adjust until you hit your goal weight.
If you are 50 pounds too heavy then don't expect to lose that much fat for at least 50 weeks.
In other words, 50 pounds can take a year or more to lose.
If you wanted to lose the excess fat sooner then you should have starting fixing your training and nutrition years ago.
That is on you. It is all about the choices you make.
Start with the things you are scared of, imagine to be hard, and/or make excuses NOT to do if you want real, lasting results:
https://www.amazon.com/Thinner-Leaner-Stronger-Building-Ultimate/dp/1938895312
The "weight loss becomes a little easier" only once you are disciplined enough to do what you need to do instead of what you want to do.
Doing what was "easier" is what caused your body to store more fat than you need.
Stop thinking in terms of "easier" and start thinking about "necessary".
"Woo" means "too good to be true"
Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.1 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »
Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.
The impact hypothyroidism makes on your weight is minimal. Before I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer I had gained a bit of weight, eight pounds over the course of two years. It was really nothing. Once my thyroid was removed, I lost the weight at a rate of about 1/2 lb - 1 lb per week while still eating 1720 calories per day.
BTW, 75mcg is not half the maximum dose of levothyroxine, it's merely a starting point. I started at 125mcg. The dose you end up with depends completely on your body and how much hormone it needs to function optimally. I think the largest dose pill is 300mcg. Also, don't be surprised if levothyroxine alone doesn't work for you. We adjusted my dose up and down for a while before it was determined that I also needed to take liothyronine to feel my best.
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VioletRojo wrote: »Devondumpling72 wrote: »
Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.
The impact hypothyroidism makes on your weight is minimal. Before I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer I had gained a bit of weight, eight pounds over the course of two years. It was really nothing. Once my thyroid was removed, I lost the weight at a rate of about 1/2 lb - 1 lb per week while still eating 1720 calories per day.
BTW, 75mcg is not half the maximum dose of levothyroxine, it's merely a starting point. I started at 125mcg. The dose you end up with depends completely on your body and how much hormone it needs to function optimally. I think the largest dose pill is 300mcg. Also, don't be surprised if levothyroxine alone doesn't work for you. We adjusted my dose up and down for a while before it was determined that I also needed to take liothyronine to feel my best.
I agree with this. 75 mcg is a slightly higher starting dose than most get but it is not super high, nor is it half of the maximum dose. I take 180 of natural desiccated thyroid which is T4 plus other hormones.
I'm another for whom levothyroxine did not work for. I gave it a year then found a doctor who would let me try something else. The results were like night and day.
I find being hypo affects how much I eat more than anything. I would eat for energy so I gained weight.2 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.
My apologies. These same questions are answered on here almost every week.
I for one can get a little snippy after posting the same responses over and over again.
A 100 to 200 calorie deficit is not a lot of wiggle room for inaccurate logging or portion sizes.
That is almost maintenance calories.
The process is always slower than you would like and requires frequent adjustment.
Get on a proven novice strength training program (like the book I linked to or StrongLifts5x5 for example) if you want better long-term results.
Strength training will offset sarcopenia and help prevent osteoporosis at the very least.
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There is no set starting dose of levothyroxine. It's a hormone and all dosages are based on two primary factors - body mass and level of biological production.
I'm 6'4" 215 lbs and on 175/200 mcg alt daily. I've been on anywhere from 50-300 mcg depending largely on my weight.
Keep in mind the dose is in micrograms - 95% of that little pill is filler.
With all weight management programs it is critical for you to learn the difference between hunger and appetite. Hunger is what your body needs. Appetite is what your brain desires. You need to identify those situations that trigger your appetite and control these. Personally I drink 16 oz water prior to meal times and careful around foods like potato chips. I eat smaller meals in the morning and lunch as I like to stay light and mobile during the day. >60% of my calories are eaten after 7pm.
A lot of the soreness associated is just simple lack of movement and bodies adjusting to new activity. The body of evidence is clear on this - you need to stay active. @cqbkaju is absolutely correct in this and everyone needs some manner of resistance training to enjoy a long healthy life.2 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.
My apologies. These same questions are answered on here almost every week.
I for one can get a little snippy after posting the same responses over and over again.
A 100 to 200 calorie deficit is not a lot of wiggle room for inaccurate logging or portion sizes.
That is almost maintenance calories.
The process is always slower than you would like and requires frequent adjustment.
Get on a proven novice strength training program (like the book I linked to or StrongLifts5x5 for example) if you want better long-term results.
Strength training will offset sarcopenia and help prevent osteoporosis at the very least.
Sorry I wasn't clear, 100-200 calories below the calories set for a 2lb weight loss. Calorie suggestion is 1560 and I'm 230 odd lbs so I average in the region of 1300 ish not including exercise. I am so religious with weighing and logging I don't feel there is an issue there. I also eat when I'm hungry and drink regularly throughout the day. The thing is 25 years ago I lost all my weight apart from 2lb through calories, back then there wasn't really any macro guidelines nor internet for help and I never are exercise calories then either.
This for me is a life changing thing and I know i will always have to be cautious, what I have noticed this time is my weight loss is a lot slower compared to previous attempts but as I said, it's something i can and will deal with if that's the case. Typically I would always lose 1 or 2lb a week whereas now it's a quarter of a lb maybe half a lb.
I just feel a little frustrated but I will take a look at the link you provided. Thank you for your comments and I understand you may feel like a parrot repeating yourself sometimes. The internet is full of conflicting information.1 -
Devondumpling72 wrote: »Devondumpling72 wrote: »Thank you. I did correct myself with the hypo/hyper in a different comment. I didn't suggest I was some kind of genetic snowflake and I'm not blaming my thyroid for my current weight. I have always been big and there is only 1 reason for that and it's not medical. You will notice I have also said I weigh and log everything as well as making sure I am hydrated and near enough always have a 100-200 calorie deficit, more after an exercise day. I don't emotion eat, quite the opposite in fact. I don't want a magic diet, pill or wand. I just want to lose but I also need to understand the impact, if any of the thyroid. Being on half the maximum dose is a starting point. Nothing more.
My apologies. These same questions are answered on here almost every week.
I for one can get a little snippy after posting the same responses over and over again.
A 100 to 200 calorie deficit is not a lot of wiggle room for inaccurate logging or portion sizes.
That is almost maintenance calories.
The process is always slower than you would like and requires frequent adjustment.
Get on a proven novice strength training program (like the book I linked to or StrongLifts5x5 for example) if you want better long-term results.
Strength training will offset sarcopenia and help prevent osteoporosis at the very least.
Sorry I wasn't clear, 100-200 calories below the calories set for a 2lb weight loss. Calorie suggestion is 1560 and I'm 230 odd lbs so I average in the region of 1300 ish not including exercise. I am so religious with weighing and logging I don't feel there is an issue there. I also eat when I'm hungry and drink regularly throughout the day. The thing is 25 years ago I lost all my weight apart from 2lb through calories, back then there wasn't really any macro guidelines nor internet for help and I never are exercise calories then either.
This for me is a life changing thing and I know i will always have to be cautious, what I have noticed this time is my weight loss is a lot slower compared to previous attempts but as I said, it's something i can and will deal with if that's the case. Typically I would always lose 1 or 2lb a week whereas now it's a quarter of a lb maybe half a lb.
I just feel a little frustrated but I will take a look at the link you provided. Thank you for your comments and I understand you may feel like a parrot repeating yourself sometimes. The internet is full of conflicting information misinformation.
There are several people who have no ethical qualms profiting off the misery of the desperate. When people come here asking about hypothyroidism I find much of the disinformation they have received is from a site such as "Stop the thyroid madness".
I may seem like a large shift now, but I can tell you from experience that this issue is very manageable, but keeping your weight managed is critical. There are several elite level athletes with hypothyroidism.
There is a great deal of data suggesting that it is not hypothyroidism that causes weight gain, but weight gain that dramatically increases the risk of hypothyroidism. You will likely find that your symptoms are minimized as you approach your ideal weight.
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There is no set starting dose of levothyroxine. It's a hormone and all dosages are based on two primary factors - body mass and level of biological production.
I'm 6'4" 215 lbs and on 175/200 mcg alt daily. I've been on anywhere from 50-300 mcg depending largely on my weight.
Keep in mind the dose is in micrograms - 95% of that little pill is filler.
With all weight management programs it is critical for you to learn the difference between hunger and appetite. Hunger is what your body needs. Appetite is what your brain desires. You need to identify those situations that trigger your appetite and control these. Personally I drink 16 oz water prior to meal times and careful around foods like potato chips. I eat smaller meals in the morning and lunch as I like to stay light and mobile during the day. >60% of my calories are eaten after 7pm.
A lot of the soreness associated is just simple lack of movement and bodies adjusting to new activity. The body of evidence is clear on this - you need to stay active. @cqbkaju is absolutely correct in this and everyone needs some manner of resistance training to enjoy a long healthy life.
Thank you, my gp told me about the starting dose, she said it was between 50 and 100 so just going by what she said. I started to learn the diffetence between hunger and thirst a few years back and still slip up sometimes but now I drink throughout the day at regular intervals it's a lot easier. Activity wise since new year I have made a conscious effort to move more, not just for weight but also I have osteoarthritis in my spine and knee, I find keeping moving is really helpful and at the moment I'm pain meds free so that's my main reason to keep moving. Anyway, right now I'm looking forward to starting to feel better in myself, I have a low mood that doesn't want to leave and I feel like I could sleep for England!1 -
I posted in your other thread and now this one.
I have a really hard time believing that you are weighing and measuring and logging all your food and are at 1300 calories and not losing at a better clip than you claim. According to you, it's only been two weeks since you started this time so, "Be patient and accurate."
Please open your Food diary so we can take a look, there may be some logging issues you aren't aware of.
Go to FOOD > Settings
Direct link: https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/diary_settings
Scroll to the bottom and click "Public" and "save."0 -
I'd like to see the source that states 100 fewer calories a day is a must for hypothyroid. I can't find that anywhere.
I'm 5'5" 148 and take 175 mcg. Everyone is different so dosages will vary.
Just a thought, do you think your age has something to do with it? It feels slightly more difficult to lose the older I get.1 -
Also, I track every bite, 1200 calories a day and am not losing at the moment. I'm consistently lifting and exercising so hopefully building muscle. I'm not focused on the scale, I'm taking pictures and measurements.0
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adamlambert1877 wrote: »I'd like to see the source that states 100 fewer calories a day is a must for hypothyroid. I can't find that anywhere.
I'm 5'5" 148 and take 175 mcg. Everyone is different so dosages will vary.
Just a thought, do you think your age has something to do with it? It feels slightly more difficult to lose the older I get.
You won't find it as it does not exist. It's correlation.
The primary driver of basal metabolism is body mass. It's a series of biochemical pathways and it works very simply - need more, have more. The next largest driver being muscle mass, but even this is minor.
Activity is the largest driver of Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) and this is why most people find it difficult to lose as they age and we tend to become less active as we age.2 -
adamlambert1877 wrote: »I'd like to see the source that states 100 fewer calories a day is a must for hypothyroid. I can't find that anywhere.
I'm 5'5" 148 and take 175 mcg. Everyone is different so dosages will vary.
Just a thought, do you think your age has something to do with it? It feels slightly more difficult to lose the older I get.
You are already in or very close to your healthy weight (if you look at BMI.) You don't need to and really shouldn't set it so low when you are at your current weight.
I was 54 when I lost my weight. At the end (so the last 20 pounds) I was eating 1900-2300 per day to lose. I am retired...low daily activity, tiny house - live alone. I did get a little exercise, about 45-60 minutes of walking hills 3-5 times per week.adamlambert1877 wrote: »Also, I track every bite, 1200 calories a day and am not losing at the moment. I'm consistently lifting and exercising so hopefully building muscle. I'm not focused on the scale, I'm taking pictures and measurements.
1200 is probably too low for you - I hope you're eating more on those lifting and exercising days.
Set your goals more realistically. Like set Myfitnesspal to "Lose 1/2 pound per week." Be as honest as you can where it asks for your normal daily activity. Then in addition, add in your exercise and eat more on exercise days.
How long have YOU been at this attempt at 1200 and losing?
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Thanks for the reply. I've had a bod pod assessment and am eating according to the results. Lost 12 pounds since April. The bod pod is extremely accurate, the egg shaped thing one sits in.0
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adamlambert1877 wrote: »Thanks for the reply. I've had a bod pod assessment and am eating according to the results. Lost 12 pounds since April. The bod pod is extremely accurate, the egg shaped thing one sits in.
So, your TDEE is around 1400 then? I find that hard (impossible) to believe.2
This discussion has been closed.
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