Help with number shock
Replies
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TavistockToad wrote: »insideoutsocks7 wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Why are people recommending things like serious weight training for someone who clearly has body image issues and a possible eating disorder?
I actually wouldn't say I have a body image issue. I think I look pretty good and I don't desire to loose maybe more than 5 more pounds to be extremely honest. I have an OCD diagnosis and I think the calorie fixation has a lot to do with that. At the same time, I've been extremely uncomfortable with my body in the past the couple of times I was over 125. The heaviest I've ever been was 132 and I was only moderately active so a lot of it was body fat, and I wanted to cry everyday. I guess it depends on what you define as a healthy weight range to be happy with 🤷
You're 5ft7.5 and 115lbs and want to lose 5lbs...
This. It's easy to say you don't have a body image issue. But simultaneously saying that you wanted to cry at a healthy weight, already are underweight and want to be *more* underweight, were extremely uncomfortable at a BMI above 20, and must have had body fat because you were only "moderately active" isn't exactly indicative of healthy perceptions.14 -
singingflutelady wrote: »billkansas wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Why are people recommending things like serious weight training for someone who clearly has body image issues and a possible eating disorder?
I know nothing about eating disorders.. but can it hurt? In my experience, strength training gave me a concrete reason to eat more and better food. You eat better because you don't want your time in the gym to be wasted.
i think strength training is for everyone... especially the weak and elderly. Who else needs it more?
Yes it can hurt. Obsessive behaviour+body dysmorphia+exercise is not a good combination.
So your diagnosis and recommendation is "no exercise"?
This is the "Gaining Weight and Body Building" message board!! What the heck is harmful or risky about starting a beginner strength training program?4 -
billkansas wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »billkansas wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Why are people recommending things like serious weight training for someone who clearly has body image issues and a possible eating disorder?
I know nothing about eating disorders.. but can it hurt? In my experience, strength training gave me a concrete reason to eat more and better food. You eat better because you don't want your time in the gym to be wasted.
i think strength training is for everyone... especially the weak and elderly. Who else needs it more?
Yes it can hurt. Obsessive behaviour+body dysmorphia+exercise is not a good combination.
This is the "Gaining Weight and Body Building" message board!!
Yet OP wants to lose 5lbs...
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billkansas wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »billkansas wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Why are people recommending things like serious weight training for someone who clearly has body image issues and a possible eating disorder?
I know nothing about eating disorders.. but can it hurt? In my experience, strength training gave me a concrete reason to eat more and better food. You eat better because you don't want your time in the gym to be wasted.
i think strength training is for everyone... especially the weak and elderly. Who else needs it more?
Yes it can hurt. Obsessive behaviour+body dysmorphia+exercise is not a good combination.
So your diagnosis and recommendation is "no exercise"?
This is the "Gaining Weight and Body Building" message board!! What the heck is harmful or risky about starting a beginner strength training program?
The "diagnosis" is to work with a therapist. An untreated ED taken to the gym can be a recipe for unfueled exercise, exhaustion, injury, and a person incapable of seeing they are getting worse, not better by replacing one obsession with another. There's a difference between someone who is underweight due to lifestyle and bad habits, and someone who is underweight due to body dysmorphia and/or an ED. Not saying that's the case here, just that caution is required. If OP were to start weight training, she would need to eat more and be able to handle more extreme weight fluctuations without anxiety.8 -
billkansas wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »billkansas wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Why are people recommending things like serious weight training for someone who clearly has body image issues and a possible eating disorder?
I know nothing about eating disorders.. but can it hurt? In my experience, strength training gave me a concrete reason to eat more and better food. You eat better because you don't want your time in the gym to be wasted.
i think strength training is for everyone... especially the weak and elderly. Who else needs it more?
Yes it can hurt. Obsessive behaviour+body dysmorphia+exercise is not a good combination.
So your diagnosis and recommendation is "no exercise"?
This is the "Gaining Weight and Body Building" message board!! What the heck is harmful or risky about starting a beginner strength training program?
Plenty, if it feeds into the cycle of exercise as being a punishment for eating, or food being a reason that you need to exercise.
Never mind the fact that if she's *not* prepared for increased glutes and quads after starting a traditional program, that could hurt like hell and be a trigger to continue restricting calories. I almost stopped lifting entirely because I suddenly was gaining inches in my hips/butt and my shorts stopped fitting. It was only when I found modifications that put the focus on arm and core work that I was OK lifting again.3 -
insideoutsocks7 wrote: »I have been playing number games with food for ***years*** (I'm 23 have had an issue on/and off since 12, but it's been particularly bad this past year). I recently hit a low and was restricting to 1,000 kcal a day and was starting to feel really sick. In the past few months with the encouragement of my boyfriend I increased it to 1,300 without including fruit, veggies and coffee with half and half. I've been trying to excerize lately to build back some muscle mass, and record my intake without and of the "cheats". My boyfriend wants me to set a goal at 1850, but the number terrifies me and makes me feel like I'm going to get fat. I work an office job, but I do walk to work or bike to work several times a week, as well as bike the stores, for entertainment ect ( I can't drive, no license). I weight about 115 and am 5'7.5". I feel like 1,650 kcal would be much more appropriate. Any advice?
Also, yes, I have seen a therapist.
Bottom line is that if you want to build muscle and increase performance, you're going to have to eat more. At your age and current weight your BMI is what.. 18-19. You could easily weigh 145-150 and be normal weight with much more muscle mass. That's a lot of muscle mass to gain that you won't without more calories. Consider looking at IIFYM.com and their macro calculators. Select gaining weight in a smaller percentage, maybe 10% surplus (textbook). Running your stats through their macro calculator and assuming you are sedentary but do 4 days a week of 45 minutes of exercise at a moderate effort (you breathe hard and challenge yourself but can carry on a conversation somewhat), your goal calories would be 1729/day 7 days a week.
Play around with their macro calculator and see what you come up with. The catch with iifym is that you can eat what you want as long as you hit the macros and stay at or slightly under your calorie goal but you have to be consistent with the exercise or it won't work. If you input 4 days a week, for 45 minutes at a moderate pace, then do 4 days a week for 45 minutes at a moderate pace. If you do more, give yourself a break and eat a little more, if you do less, eat a little less. It's not rocket science, but those calculators can help.
I've been using iifym.com for about three years now. It's helped me build significant muscle without too much fat gain and it's helped me improve my physical performance greatly. I never thought I would be able to run at all again with my permanent back injuries, but I run approximately 10 miles a week, and twice a week run a 5k. I don't break any records doing it but it feels great. I don't lift super heavy either, my back won't allow it. But even with lighter weights, higher reps, circuit training has helped me build muscle where I've never had it before.
It's going to take time. I've been at building muscle and building performance for 3 years. I'm not finished. You don't have to be super aggressive with it if you're willing to put the time in.
Good luck!
PS: I'm not advocating not using MFP. I input the values from iifym.com manually into MFP's goals and use MFP for tracking. Works great!2 -
Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
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billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
That is not what people are saying. There is a difference between "thin obsessed" and the red flags of an eating disorder. Eating disorders are tricky because they manifest in so many different ways and different things exacerbate them in different people. By advising someone who's showing disordered eating patterns not to see a therapist, you are harming them. Flat out. Therapist first, lifting second. That's all anyone here is saying.10 -
billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
Nobody said that. But you go ahead and keep showing your lack of knowledge. After all, you did put it perfectly above when you said you knew nothing about eating disorders.
Perhaps this will make it clearer to you, since you think it's all about being thin-obsessed, and you refuse to back down when multiple people are telling you that you're wrong.
Would you encourage a diabetic to eat more sugar?
If you wouldn't, why are you encouraging someone with an active eating disorder to pursue more exercise?
They're the same thing in affecting the outcome of disease management. Eating disorders aren't all about intake.6 -
billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
There are several of the ladies posting in here who lift regularly. The concern is about disordered eating and body perceptions. It is NOT about lifting.
You seem to be more interested in proving yourself right than actually considering what posters are discussing as their concerns with your advice. I'm sorry that you have such a difficult time admitting you are wrong. It can be a very valuable quality to learn.
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OP, please do get some help with a trusted therapist. You said that when you saw your therapist other issues were a higher priority. We're those deemed higher priority by you or by the therapist? I'm just wondering if this is someone you could continue on with or is it time to find a new therapist? Sometimes it takes a while to find one that really cuts through to the heart of the issue.5
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billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
In addition to what has been said about disordered thinking, people with EDs who are very underweight should work closely with a doctor.. heavy exercise including lifting can cause further health issues for those in recovery..their bodies may not be in a place to handle it and need to repair bones and organs first. They can suffer from heart attacks, broken bones etc.8 -
billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
Maybe rather than joke about a medical condition you don't know anything about, you should research it instead. I personally love to learn, but I know not everyone feels that way.
EDs can be quite complicated and multi-faceted; when you're dealing with someone whose thought process is warped, the solutions can seem illogical. I can assure you, if you've ever watched someone go through this, even die from it, it's not funny.8 -
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insideoutsocks7 wrote: »
That gives me a lot to think about, after hearing it broken back down that way. To me 110 sounds like a slim adult female's weight. You don't even have to ask how tall she is, you know she's fairly slim. I guess that's the appeal of the number to me. I don't have a lot of fat to lose and I certainly don't want to lose any more muscle mass, but as petty as it sounds the round number is very appealing to me. I got to 109 when I was eating 1kcal a day, but I was so so sad all the timeIf you think you look good now, why do you want to lose any more weight? What do you want to gain from that? If you already know you're undereating, and am looking to increase your calorie consumption, why are you looking to lose weight?
this is all very disordered thinking. you said this gives you a lot to think about, but have you thought about going back to treatment or a therapist about all this??6 -
insideoutsocks7 wrote: »
That gives me a lot to think about, after hearing it broken back down that way. To me 110 sounds like a slim adult female's weight. You don't even have to ask how tall she is, you know she's fairly slim. I guess that's the appeal of the number to me. I don't have a lot of fat to lose and I certainly don't want to lose any more muscle mass, but as petty as it sounds the round number is very appealing to me. I got to 109 when I was eating 1kcal a day, but I was so so sad all the timeIf you think you look good now, why do you want to lose any more weight? What do you want to gain from that? If you already know you're undereating, and am looking to increase your calorie consumption, why are you looking to lose weight?
I'm 5ft5 and 136lbs. I'm slim.4 -
insideoutsocks7 wrote: »
That gives me a lot to think about, after hearing it broken back down that way. To me 110 sounds like a slim adult female's weight. You don't even have to ask how tall she is, you know she's fairly slim. I guess that's the appeal of the number to me. I don't have a lot of fat to lose and I certainly don't want to lose any more muscle mass, but as petty as it sounds the round number is very appealing to me. I got to 109 when I was eating 1kcal a day, but I was so so sad all the timeIf you think you look good now, why do you want to lose any more weight? What do you want to gain from that? If you already know you're undereating, and am looking to increase your calorie consumption, why are you looking to lose weight?
Please talk to your therapist about this. At your height, 110 would be underweight -- I'm three inches shorter than you are, and it would be borderline underweight on me. I'm not surprised that you were sad at 109. You're a taller woman, and that means that you need a little more weight to be healthier.
I know the appeal of wanting a nice round number. Could you try to go to 120 to get it instead?2 -
I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.11 -
billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
Not if OP is still under eating, no.4 -
billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
That's not what I asked -- I asked if you'd encourage a diabetic to eat sugar. Because that is the same thing as asking someone with an active eating disorder to start doing additional exercise.
Why are you changing the question?6 -
diannethegeek wrote: »billkansas wrote: »Thin obsessed ladies- you read it right here: never, ever dare to pickup a barbell!
That is not what people are saying. There is a difference between "thin obsessed" and the red flags of an eating disorder. Eating disorders are tricky because they manifest in so many different ways and different things exacerbate them in different people. By advising someone who's showing disordered eating patterns not to see a therapist, you are harming them. Flat out. Therapist first, lifting second. That's all anyone here is saying.
So my advice has to cover something already covered by everyone else?0 -
billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.
So you think if OP continues to undereat and fear weight gain, but adds strength training, she'll do it in a healthy manner and get stronger and everything will be A-OK?5 -
I would not tell someone with a shoulder injury to go ahead and keep lifting without getting checked out first.
I would not tell someone with untreated asthma to train for a marathon without starting a treatment plan first.
And I will not tell someone who has all of the signs of disordered eating to start exercising without professional assessment first.
It's no different than telling someone to go ahead and push through an injury. Maybe it works out in some percentage of people. But it exacerbates the injury for others and is likely to cause permanent damage in some.
You and I and the rest of the posters here cannot assess this sort of thing. We aren't trained for it. Even someone trained for it cannot diagnose over the internet. And the OP needs to get checked out by a health provider with training and experience in this area before they try and push through.
Why is this so hard to understand?12 -
diannethegeek wrote: »I would not tell someone with a shoulder injury to go ahead and keep lifting without getting checked out first.
I would not tell someone with untreated asthma to train for a marathon without starting a treatment plan first.
And I will not tell someone who has all of the signs of disordered eating to start exercising without professional assessment first.
It's no different than telling someone to go ahead and push through an injury. Maybe it works out in some percentage of people. But it exacerbates the injury for others and is likely to cause permanent damage in some.
You and I and the rest of the posters here cannot assess this sort of thing. We aren't trained for it. Even someone trained for it cannot diagnose over the internet. And the OP needs to get checked out by a health provider with training and experience in this area before they try and push through.
Why is this so hard to understand?
All of this.2 -
billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.
So you think if OP continues to undereat and fear weight gain, but adds strength training, she'll do it in a healthy manner and get stronger and everything will be A-OK?
It could stimulate appetite... it works for me. I think cardio and high reps would be pointless.4 -
billkansas wrote: »billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.
So you think if OP continues to undereat and fear weight gain, but adds strength training, she'll do it in a healthy manner and get stronger and everything will be A-OK?
It could stimulate appetite... it works for me. I think cardio and high reps would be pointless.
her thinking at this point, as she has revealed, indicates she would likely not train in a healthy manner
I would strongly encourage the OP to find a therapist she can work with. don't think about weight as a measurement of how healthy you are. and you want to be healthy. it is just a measurement of how gravity pulls you to earth. nothing more.
being healthy is a whole body/mind issue. and a therapist experienced in treating ED or obsessive disorders will help you be healthy6 -
Someone interested in strength training goes to the gym and thinks "I hope I can squat X lbs for 5 reps today". I don't see how this viewpoint would be dangerous to OP. If she thought like this, she might just eat well before and after in hopes of hitting this goal. A goal like this encourages someone to eat. I've found strength training also stimulates the appetite.
But sure, if she goes and stares at herself in the mirror and starts thinking (I wish I was slimmer, I wish my butt wasn't so big, etc). That may not be healthy. I guess she should find a gym with no mirrors then (I personally have no use for mirrors in the gym).7 -
billkansas wrote: »billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.
So you think if OP continues to undereat and fear weight gain, but adds strength training, she'll do it in a healthy manner and get stronger and everything will be A-OK?
It could stimulate appetite... it works for me.
Do you have an eating disorder?
If you don't, your hunger and appetite cues and action strategies are not the same as someone with a restrictive eating pattern.
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billkansas wrote: »billkansas wrote: »I'd encourage a diabetic to strength train just like I'd encourage someone with body perception issues to strength train. Strength training has nothing to do with body perception- it's about actually getting stronger. I think everyone is confusing strength training with body building- two different things.
If OP adopted the hobby of strength training and NOT bodybuilding.... does that satisfy you all?
PS I may no nothing about eating disorders... you woo-ers no nothing about actual strength training.
So you think if OP continues to undereat and fear weight gain, but adds strength training, she'll do it in a healthy manner and get stronger and everything will be A-OK?
It could stimulate appetite... it works for me. I think cardio and high reps would be pointless.
That's fine. Your lack of interest in what an ED really encompasses is making this pointless. If you understood what goes on in the head of someone struggling with ED, you would realize this makes no sense. I'm just going to leave it at that.
OP, I agree 100% with this post. Please take care of yourself:collectingblues wrote: »insideoutsocks7 wrote: »
That gives me a lot to think about, after hearing it broken back down that way. To me 110 sounds like a slim adult female's weight. You don't even have to ask how tall she is, you know she's fairly slim. I guess that's the appeal of the number to me. I don't have a lot of fat to lose and I certainly don't want to lose any more muscle mass, but as petty as it sounds the round number is very appealing to me. I got to 109 when I was eating 1kcal a day, but I was so so sad all the timeIf you think you look good now, why do you want to lose any more weight? What do you want to gain from that? If you already know you're undereating, and am looking to increase your calorie consumption, why are you looking to lose weight?
Please talk to your therapist about this. At your height, 110 would be underweight -- I'm three inches shorter than you are, and it would be borderline underweight on me. I'm not surprised that you were sad at 109. You're a taller woman, and that means that you need a little more weight to be healthier.
I know the appeal of wanting a nice round number. Could you try to go to 120 to get it instead?
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billkansas wrote: »Someone interested in strength training goes to the gym and thinks "I hope I can squat X lbs for 5 reps today". I don't see how this viewpoint would be dangerous to OP. If she thought like this, she might just eat well before and after in hopes of hitting this goal. A goal like this encourages someone to eat. I've found strength training also stimulates the appetite.
But sure, if she goes and stares at herself in the mirror and starts thinking (I wish I was slimmer, I wish my butt wasn't so big, etc). That may not be healthy. I guess she should find a gym with no mirrors then (I personally have no use for mirrors in the gym).
Someone with an ED who goes to the gym thinks, "I ate 500 calories today. That means I need to burn at least 500 calories off here. Weightlifting only burns about 180 calories an hour, so I need to lift weight for about 3.5 hours."10
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