CICO, It's a math formula
Replies
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Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.18 -
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Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.22 -
Quest4More wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »I loved the reddit post linked in one of the articles posted above. Its regarding the Biggest Loser study, and discusses issues with the study that I hadn't read about before...
https://www.reddit.com/r/loseit/comments/4ldkcp/the_nyt_biggest_loser_study_and_the_copehangen/
Yes! I have read that before and found it to be quite interesting....especially the role of hormones in maintaining weight loss once it has been achieved. (talked about in the Copehangen study).
Yes, yes. We are all familiar with various hormone's role in weight loss.
The interesting part was the fact that the study's creators came up with their own formula for calculating RMR for obese individuals, then extrapolated it to use on the participants after they had lost weight, and used it to prove permanent metabolic damage.
However, when normal weight people tried to use the same formula on themselves, they all had metabolic damage according to this formula, even if they had never been obese. In other words, it appears that the very formula used to prove permanent metabolic damage was flawed.
The Copenhagen study on the other hand, showed that after a year in maintenance, people's 'set point', ie. weight dictated by hunger hormones, activity etc had reset, and showed no 'metabolic damage'.17 -
stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?13 -
Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
But "carbs" don't lead to "an excess of insulin".
My understanding is that, at least generally, weight gain leads to insulin resistance, not the other way around. I don't believe it's any kind of proven science that insulin resistance causes weight gain. Do you have any sources for that I could read?11 -
Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
Hate to break it to you, but our bodies are very adaptive and have multiple storage hormones. Fat stimulates ASP which inhibits HSL. Carbs and protein both stimulate insulin.. fat and carbs also inhibit HSL through GIP... Soo, all nutrients will cause storage. Net energy balance is the only thing that matters.
And ironically, fat stores as body fat more than other nutrients. Carbs rarely convert due to de novo lipogenesis. But carbs do suppress fat oxidation.
Again, your body is a nutrient storage machine.16 -
Running_and_Coffee wrote: »"Salads are for suckers! Lose weight eating frozen pizza and beer that you've carefully measured on your food scale!"
But that's how I lost 125lbs...4 -
Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
This may be an illuminating read for you - an evidence-based, seven-part series on insulin and what it actually does. Starts here: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
[ETA:] You'll learn in that article (with links to research) that protein is just as insulogenic as carbs are. So if carbs make you fat due to the insulin, protein would make you equally fat (but that's not how it works in either case).8 -
Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
There's no reason to prevent a completely normal biological mechanism from doing its thing.
"Excess" insulin does not lead to diabetes, and insulin does not lead to fat gain, again, insulin can only deliver nutrients to your cells if those nutrients are in your blood to begin with and not needed for your body's energy needs, i.e. a calorie surplus.6 -
Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
But "carbs" don't lead to "an excess of insulin".
My understanding is that, at least generally, weight gain leads to insulin resistance, not the other way around. I don't believe it's any kind of proven science that insulin resistance causes weight gain. Do you have any sources for that I could read?
From a paper put out by the National Institute of Health...
"Insulin resistance is a requisite precursor for the development of type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), and is associated with hypertension and dyslipidemia [1]. Epidemiological data link T2DM with obesity, and a causal relationship between insulin resistance and weight gain has been gleaned from classical studies in which lean individuals with no previous history of obesity or diabetes became insulin resistant upon experimental overnutrition [2]. These facts reinforce the great importance of understanding the physiological basis for insulin resistance in obesity."
Heres the link...seems to be a well documented hypothesis:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038351/4 -
Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
But "carbs" don't lead to "an excess of insulin".
My understanding is that, at least generally, weight gain leads to insulin resistance, not the other way around. I don't believe it's any kind of proven science that insulin resistance causes weight gain. Do you have any sources for that I could read?
From a paper put out by the National Institute of Health...
"Insulin resistance is a requisite precursor for the development of type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), and is associated with hypertension and dyslipidemia [1]. Epidemiological data link T2DM with obesity, and a causal relationship between insulin resistance and weight gain has been gleaned from classical studies in which lean individuals with no previous history of obesity or diabetes became insulin resistant upon experimental overnutrition [2]. These facts reinforce the great importance of understanding the physiological basis for insulin resistance in obesity."
Heres the link...seems to be a well documented hypothesis:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038351/
In other words, they got fat, which led to insulin resistance. Not the other way around.11 -
Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
But "carbs" don't lead to "an excess of insulin".
My understanding is that, at least generally, weight gain leads to insulin resistance, not the other way around. I don't believe it's any kind of proven science that insulin resistance causes weight gain. Do you have any sources for that I could read?
From a paper put out by the National Institute of Health...
"Insulin resistance is a requisite precursor for the development of type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), and is associated with hypertension and dyslipidemia [1]. Epidemiological data link T2DM with obesity, and a causal relationship between insulin resistance and weight gain has been gleaned from classical studies in which lean individuals with no previous history of obesity or diabetes became insulin resistant upon experimental overnutrition [2]. These facts reinforce the great importance of understanding the physiological basis for insulin resistance in obesity."
Heres the link...seems to be a well documented hypothesis:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038351/
To me, that says people who weren't fat or diabetic ate too much, and became insulin resistant. So IR and weight gain resulted from "overnutrition". Considering how many people here have been diagnosed diabetic, lost weight without going low carb, and reversed their numbers, that makes sense to me.
I will admit it usually takes me a few tries to read and really understand scientific papers, and I'm at work right now
but I'll try to read the whole paper later. 10 -
Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.
Sheeeeeit!!! Aint nobody got time for that! Why not just give my two cents and wait for the trolls and cat ladies to pounce and set me straight?
Cuz ya might learn something first??????10 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.
Sheeeeeit!!! Aint nobody got time for that! Why not just give my two cents and wait for the trolls and cat ladies to pounce and set me straight?
Cuz ya might learn something first??????
Get out of here with your logic. It has no place here.9 -
Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
Yep, and he even got that wrong. People don't "lose nearly twice the weight" on the same calories when they modify their macros, and they sure as hell don't store fat in a deficit, but I'm too tired to get into the same old chewed up insulin hypothesis.
You are twisting my words...I didnt say you would store fat/gain weight in a deficit....I stated that insulin tells the body to store fat.....this is not a hypothesis, its been proven....look at the vast majority of Type 2 diabetes that go on Insulin and eat the same diet....they almost all gain weight. Is that a coincidence? No, its the insulin. Anyone that says hormones like Insulin and Cortisol have nothing to do with how our bodies store fat is just wrong...its been shown time and time again to be true. Get some sleep and when you are less tired look up some studies having to do with hormones and their effects on weight gain/loss. Its pretty interesting stuff. ;-)
Insulin isn't telling anyone to do anything. Insulin is a UPS delivery guy. There's stuff insulin can deliver, Insulin comes and delivers it. Nothing to deliver, insulin doesn't come out. You're mixing up cause and effect.
Fair enough....but would you not be better off if you kept insulin levels at a minimum or even keeled through a low carb diet? As with Type 2 diabetes, an excess of insulin leads to insulin resistance which leads to higher levels of fat?
But "carbs" don't lead to "an excess of insulin".
My understanding is that, at least generally, weight gain leads to insulin resistance, not the other way around. I don't believe it's any kind of proven science that insulin resistance causes weight gain. Do you have any sources for that I could read?
From a paper put out by the National Institute of Health...
"Insulin resistance is a requisite precursor for the development of type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), and is associated with hypertension and dyslipidemia [1]. Epidemiological data link T2DM with obesity, and a causal relationship between insulin resistance and weight gain has been gleaned from classical studies in which lean individuals with no previous history of obesity or diabetes became insulin resistant upon experimental overnutrition [2]. These facts reinforce the great importance of understanding the physiological basis for insulin resistance in obesity."
Heres the link...seems to be a well documented hypothesis:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038351/
To me, that says people who weren't fat or diabetic ate too much, and became insulin resistant. So IR and weight gain resulted from "overnutrition". Considering how many people here have been diagnosed diabetic, lost weight without going low carb, and reversed their numbers, that makes sense to me.
I will admit it usually takes me a few tries to read and really understand scientific papers, and I'm at work right now but I'll try to read the whole paper later.
I hear ya! At the end of the day, everyone has to decide for themselves whats best for their individual circumstances and bodies and I get that....one person (myself) may have incredible results with low carb or even Keto, while another may not. Genetic differences between individuals are going to have the last say in what diet is right for any one individual. I do enjoy the science behind it all....and that being said science is no different than the Bible, it can be interpreted/manipulated in many different ways to say whatever the reader (or company paying for the study) wants it to say. A sincere thanks for your thoughtful reply. :-)12 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.
Sheeeeeit!!! Aint nobody got time for that! Why not just give my two cents and wait for the trolls and cat ladies to pounce and set me straight?
Cuz ya might learn something first??????
Yeah cuz the MFP forums are so awash in meaningful, educated and insightful comments that I should scour every 20 to 30 pages of comments before I plan on giving my own opinion on an ONGOING debate topic. ***eyeroll***17 -
Quest4More wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.
Sheeeeeit!!! Aint nobody got time for that! Why not just give my two cents and wait for the trolls and cat ladies to pounce and set me straight?
Cuz ya might learn something first??????
Yeah cuz the MFP forums are so awash in meaningful, educated and insightful comments that I should scour every 20 to 30 pages of comments before I plan on giving my own opinion on an ONGOING debate topic. ***eyeroll***
An ongoing debate topic that was started... quite some time ago. There's plenty of time between the first post and now that you certainly could have read through and contributed meaningfully to the discussion.
Congratulations on contributing instead in a "meaningful, educated, and insightful" fashion. Everyone here thanks you for your effort. Here's a prize.
16 -
I have to say that I had never heard of this before, so I googled it to find out more. If you are young and healthy and active, it sounds great and it makes sense, particularly for the short term.. However, as you get older, you need to worry about fats - saturated fats - and your blood sugar, and your cholesterol. I can say from experience, the things you do to your body today, you will reap as you get older. There is a reason people say "if I knew I was be this old, I would have taken better care of myself" So if you follow this diet, make sure you are not creating bad food habits for yourself by filling up on fast food, desserts, and junk food. You don't want to end up on a lot of medication when you are older (and you WILL find yourself old one day)14
-
Quest4More wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »Quest4More wrote: »Calories are NOT all equal....first of all a calorie is defined as "the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere"....this has absolutely nothing to do with the human body and does not take into consideration the way our body processes different things....you could eat a block of wood and that wood would have calories according to the standard definition but it would pass through the body without ever being processed because our body cannot digest it....same goes for all different kinds of foods that have fiber content. Furthermore and much more importantly, Carbohydrates have a different effect than protein and fat on the body....namely the production of insulin which tells the body to store fat....there are studies that put one group of people on a Low Carb High Fat diet and another group on a High Carb Low fat Diet and fed them both the EXACT same Calories. By your definition, they should have both lost the same exact amount of weight.... and in fact at the end of the study, they both lost weight because of CICO....BUT the High Fat Low Carb group lost considerably more weight than the other....almost double. This is easily explained by the effect of Carbs on Insulin (insulin spike) which tells the body to store fat. This is a concept foreign to most and the reason why your formula while technically true does not tell the whole truth.
A calorie is just a calorie. You are talking about macro- and micro-nutrients, which are indeed different in each food...or wood.
OK OK....so yes all Calories defined as a unit of measure having nothing to do with the human body are all equal...my point being that looking at it through that narrow lens is not terribly helpful when trying to understand the macro/micro nutrional value of the calories and the effects they have on the human body and more importantly weight loss. The net effect being that all things being equal, an equal amount of calories with a certain macro content WILL NOT yield the same results/weight loss as the exact same amount of calories with a totally different macro content because of the effects these macros have on the human body and how the body reacts to them. I think most people understand the nuance of what I was getting at but thanks for your correction...it was very helpful and brought much insight to the debate. ;-)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't actually read most of the thread. Am I right?
28 pages and he thinks we need another mansplanation.
LMAO....sorry I am but a stupid male and unable to read through 28 WHOLE pages without giving my two cents....forgive me? ;-)
Everyone - male, female, nonbinary - should read a whole thread before giving their two cents.
Sheeeeeit!!! Aint nobody got time for that! Why not just give my two cents and wait for the trolls and cat ladies to pounce and set me straight?
Cuz ya might learn something first??????
Yeah cuz the MFP forums are so awash in meaningful, educated and insightful comments that I should scour every 20 to 30 pages of comments before I plan on giving my own opinion on an ONGOING debate topic. ***eyeroll***
Just don't expect to not be ridiculed when you don't.
Issue is that you brought up nothing new and nothing that hasn't already been debunked in this, and many other threads. You have, in fact, insulted those who have already responded in a meaningful manner on the topic and dismissed their input as unimportant. Then called those who did respond trolls and cat ladies.
You will get the respect you show.24
This discussion has been closed.
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