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Air Plane seats
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Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.3 -
middlehaitch wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.
I would agree with the bolded, it's an odds thing. But you sure can't bring the dead back to life.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.
I would agree with the bolded, it's an odds thing. But you sure can't bring the dead back to life.
If there needed to be a speedy egress, you'd be in more danger from the fact that you and everyone else who isn't in an exit row are packed in rows that are so close together that no one can exit them speedily because nobody over 5-foot-even can stand up straight. That's not a weight thing -- the seat backs extend back over the foot space behind them, even in their "fully upright" position. You could not put a broomstick on the floor at a 90-degree angle and run it up to the ceiling.
Once people manage to scramble out, angling their bodies from the hips up (or from the knees up, if they're tall) back into the space over their seats, they're now in an aisle that is so narrow that many people who are far from obese have difficulty walking normally, but must either sidle along sideways or adopt a sort of runway model gait with each placed directly in front of the other, rather than under the hip on its own side of the body, which may look elegant when you have plenty of space and keep moving, but in the stop-and-go traffic of an emergency egress is like trying to maintain your balance on a street bicycle when it isn't moving.
The only reason they get away with this is that the FAA turns a blind eye and refuses to require them to retest safety for exits on their redesigned jets with their narrow aisles (if you've been paying attention, you'll have noticed that they've had to redesign the drink carts, too, because the old ones will no longer fit down the aisles) and close-set rows.
I am short enough that I have no issues with leg room, but when I try to get in or out of a middle or window seat, I have to bend or crouch or twist or sidle in limbo position so that my torso is over the seats in my row, because the backs of the seats in the row in front of mine break into the vertical plane above the floor space. It is not an obesity issue. I fit into an airplane seat with room to spare.4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.
I would agree with the bolded, it's an odds thing. But you sure can't bring the dead back to life.
If there needed to be a speedy egress, you'd be in more danger from the fact that you and everyone else who isn't in an exit row are packed in rows that are so close together that no one can exit them speedily because nobody over 5-foot-even can stand up straight. That's not a weight thing -- the seat backs extend back over the foot space behind them, even in their "fully upright" position. You could not put a broomstick on the floor at a 90-degree angle and run it up to the ceiling.
Once people manage to scramble out, angling their bodies from the hips up (or from the knees up, if they're tall) back into the space over their seats, they're now in an aisle that is so narrow that many people who are far from obese have difficulty walking normally, but must either sidle along sideways or adopt a sort of runway model gait with each placed directly in front of the other, rather than under the hip on its own side of the body, which may look elegant when you have plenty of space and keep moving, but in the stop-and-go traffic of an emergency egress is like trying to maintain your balance on a street bicycle when it isn't moving.
The only reason they get away with this is that the FAA turns a blind eye and refuses to require them to retest safety for exits on their redesigned jets with their narrow aisles (if you've been paying attention, you'll have noticed that they've had to redesign the drink carts, too, because the old ones will no longer fit down the aisles) and close-set rows.
I am short enough that I have no issues with leg room, but when I try to get in or out of a middle or window seat, I have to bend or crouch or twist or sidle in limbo position so that my torso is over the seats in my row, because the backs of the seats in the row in front of mine break into the vertical plane above the floor space. It is not an obesity issue. I fit into an airplane seat with room to spare.
All might be true but still don't want the people in the exit rows sitting there for comfort and not being able to physically open the hatch.3 -
Yes for general comfort of the flying public, the seats should be a bit bigger. The airline keeps adjusting the size of the standard seat downward - which means that they can sell more seats and make more profits. Remember when leg room was the problem? If you are morbidly obese, yeah, then you should probably pay extra to travel in First Class or pay for 2 seats. But an average person should not have to fold themselves up for hours, just to get from point A to point B. And the average person is overweight (but not obese). I haven't flown in years now, because I am not paying money to companies that have so little respect for the people they serve.2
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elsie6hickman wrote: »Yes for general comfort of the flying public, the seats should be a bit bigger. The airline keeps adjusting the size of the standard seat downward - which means that they can sell more seats and make more profits. Remember when leg room was the problem? If you are morbidly obese, yeah, then you should probably pay extra to travel in First Class or pay for 2 seats. But an average person should not have to fold themselves up for hours, just to get from point A to point B. And the average person is overweight (but not obese). I haven't flown in years now, because I am not paying money to companies that have so little respect for the people they serve.
They have plenty of respect it you want to pay business or first class. People want $50 1000 mile flights and at the same time think they're entitled to a lazyboy recliner to sit in.5 -
Question, I rarely fly and the last time was probably 10 years ago. Aren't there arm rest between seats?
So when you talk about buying 2 seats, it's not that you can have 2 full seats to fit into, it's just that you won't have someone sitting next to you? Am I correct on this? Or am I missing something?0 -
Question, I rarely fly and the last time was probably 10 years ago. Aren't there arm rest between seats?
So when you talk about buying 2 seats, it's not that you can have 2 full seats to fit into, it's just that you won't have someone sitting next to you? Am I correct on this? Or am I missing something?
The arm rests can be lifted up between the seats.4 -
middlehaitch wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.
It's not that they would get sued for fat shaming, it's that they'd get bad PR.
Also factoring into the decision is the fact that jets almost never crash. The negative publicity is real and could alienate a growing segment of the public, the danger is hypothetical, one flight in a hundred million.1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
Agree, that is worrying to say the least.
Flight crew should be able to use their discretion, but at the same time would the passenger accuse them of 'fat shaming'. It can be a fine line when they can't have the person in those seats do a dummy run, and the airline is walking on eggshells re perceived discrimination.
(Personally, if I was an airline, I would rather have an unfit person sue, than have an emergency disembarkation turn into a disaster. But, real airlines play the profit odds and the former is more likely to happen than the latter.)
Cheers, h.
It's not that they would get sued for fat shaming, it's that they'd get bad PR.
Also factoring into the decision is the fact that jets almost never crash. The negative publicity is real and could alienate a growing segment of the public, the danger is hypothetical, one flight in a hundred million.
Yup, agree. h.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
I'm guessing most flight crew personnel don't have your son's magical power for judging functional strength based on appearance. Based on the number of people who don't think I could move picnic benches and folding tables at our last block party because I'm an overweight, short, gray-haired lady or the people who work in the fitness industry who have been surprised and impressed when they see me deadlifting at the gym, that's a pretty rare skill your son has.
If they want to make sure people in exit rows can open the door, they should assign the exit seats at the gate (inside the terminal), and have equipment there to test whether you have the strength to unlatch the door and lift a 40-lb bulky door at arm's length. I've seen plenty of normal-weight people who have trouble carrying their groceries. I don't think we really need to put those judgments on flight crew who are already busy making judgments about whether you're a danger because you're breast-feeding or wearing a scarf or speaking a language they don't know.
The questioning of the passengers about whether they have the physical ability to do what is required is pretty stupid, as most people don't know what is physically required, and a lot of people get so little activity that they don't have much idea what their physical limits are.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »middlehaitch wrote: »@Packerjohn, the people in the emergency exit seats are asked if they can perform the tasks required if there is an emergency, and are shown how to perform them. It is basically being able to open the door, strength or brute force required.
The tasks can be opted out of. I have replaced someone opting out a couple of times over the years. (Don't know if it was voluntary or requested)
Cheers, h.
My son said the people in the exit row said they could do it. However my son said one was a 5 ft something almost 300 pound woman. The other was an guy about the same size. My son was worked in the fitness industry and he could tell from their appearance they had little functional strength and would be a hindrance to someone actually trying to open the emergency exit.
I'm guessing most flight crew personnel don't have your son's magical power for judging functional strength based on appearance. Based on the number of people who don't think I could move picnic benches and folding tables at our last block party because I'm an overweight, short, gray-haired lady or the people who work in the fitness industry who have been surprised and impressed when they see me deadlifting at the gym, that's a pretty rare skill your son has.
If they want to make sure people in exit rows can open the door, they should assign the exit seats at the gate (inside the terminal), and have equipment there to test whether you have the strength to unlatch the door and lift a 40-lb bulky door at arm's length. I've seen plenty of normal-weight people who have trouble carrying their groceries. I don't think we really need to put those judgments on flight crew who are already busy making judgments about whether you're a danger because you're breast-feeding or wearing a scarf or speaking a language they don't know.
The questioning of the passengers about whether they have the physical ability to do what is required is pretty stupid, as most people don't know what is physically required, and a lot of people get so little activity that they don't have much idea what their physical limits are.
So who do you want sitting in the exit row of your flight or that of a loved one if there is an emergency? A morbidly obese person who paid the upcharge for the exit row seat or the Navy SEAL home on leave stuck 7 rows away because he/she couldn't afford the upgrade?4 -
First class is plenty big enough unless your weighing a ton. As for coach if your bigger then a normal seat they will expect you to buy two seats.0
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Some things CAN'T be transported without driving though. Especially if it's long distance (say 20 miles).NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I just don't think society should pressure them to do that as it is really against societies best interests to do so.
Remember society isn't a single cohesive thing with distinct interests. It's made up of all the people, and all their competing interests. Short term ones like having accommodations available that can accommodate people, and long term ones like improving health and longevity.
I don't think the obesity issue is going away any time soon. It will probably get worse not better. I don't think expecting obese people to just suck it up serves society's best interests at all. Making things that happen occasionally more inconvenient for the obese won't solve the problem and isn't enough incentive to compete against daily life.
I get what you are saying but in some ways I disagree. I think society DOES have a duty to provide some push-back against things that do not benefit the society as a whole not on an individual level. I think if something is known to cause health risks that society itself ends up footing the bill for either through lost revenue/productivity or through direct medical expenses I think society should discourage that condition by making it not easy to be that way. Smoking is a good example of this. Society at some point came to the conclusion that smoking is not necessary and it causes health risks. We didn't just make it illegal to smoke because I agree people should still be able to choose to do so but what we did was change rules of our society to make it really inconvenient to be a smoker. Being obese is not necessary and it causes health risks. I'm not sure why we wouldn't treat it the way we treat smoking and allow those inconveniences to persist as a way of discouraging that condition.
Having special seating for the morbidly obese is like having smoking sections. It is a tacit approval from society for that behavior that honestly it would be in societies best interest to actively discourage.
What about driving? That's 30,000 deaths per year from car accidents. And a contributor to the obesity epidemic. Children who grow up near freeways get asthma and other respiratory illnesses. Never mind the wars we fight to maintain a cheap supply, and the environmental damage. Should society make it as inconvenient as possible for drivers?
Driving provides a benefit to society in that it allows people to get to work faster and start productivity sooner. It is also the primary means by which goods and services are transported. It has a cost but it also has a benefit. What is the benefit of obesity or smoking? .
People can transport things without driving.
I suspect the real reason you want to make an exception for driving is that you enjoy the benefit yourself and haven't been personally affected by the cost.
I feel like you've moving the goal posts though. First it was we should discourage things that work against society's best interest, I pointed out that driving does that by killing 30,000 members of society every year, and you're telling me that acceptable because it gets people to work faster. Maybe people shouldn't live so far from work.
I guess the benefit to obesity is that the alternative is government control over how much everyone gets to eat.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Packerjohn wrote: »elsie6hickman wrote: »Yes for general comfort of the flying public, the seats should be a bit bigger. The airline keeps adjusting the size of the standard seat downward - which means that they can sell more seats and make more profits. Remember when leg room was the problem? If you are morbidly obese, yeah, then you should probably pay extra to travel in First Class or pay for 2 seats. But an average person should not have to fold themselves up for hours, just to get from point A to point B. And the average person is overweight (but not obese). I haven't flown in years now, because I am not paying money to companies that have so little respect for the people they serve.
They have plenty of respect it you want to pay business or first class. People want $50 1000 mile flights and at the same time think they're entitled to a lazyboy recliner to sit in.
I don't think that at all. But I do think that a reasonable person should be able to sit comfortably (not sprawl) in their seat. I'm old enough to remember when seats were comfortable for the average person. When they first cut leg room, it didn't bother me at all since I am short, but I few with male colleagues that really suffered. Then they realized that DVT could be a problem, so they restored a bit of the leg room, but made the seats smaller, and then smaller again. I can still fit in a seat, but I won't be comfortable and will have to fold in my arms, so as not to jab the person next to me. I've had people lean their seat backs until they were virtually laying in my lap, and if I had to get up for some reason, I literally had to work myself into a Z shape to get up. That is why I say that the airlines have no respect for their passengers. It is not the flight crew, it is the company themselves that make the decisions about seat design. My solution is that I just don't fly anymore. And I have flown all over the world, on all different carriers and no one squeezes passengers like U.S. carriers.
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Due to the cost of fuel and other things (high cost of maintenance, etc.), airlines make barely any money on passengers. Last I read, is they made an average profit of $2 per customer after all costs are assumed. So, on a fully loaded 737-900R, a profit of $400 tops could be seen per flight. That's why they do what they do. Now, they do make more money on cargo (delivering packages) than passengers, but trying to optimize seating for the most profit is not any different than a company trying to maximize its profit through any other means.
I fly a lot and it can be uncomfortable for sure. I don't like how close they are together but I understand why they do it.3 -
Due to the cost of fuel and other things (high cost of maintenance, etc.), airlines make barely any money on passengers. Last I read, is they made an average profit of $2 per customer after all costs are assumed. So, on a fully loaded 737-900R, a profit of $400 tops could be seen per flight. That's why they do what they do. Now, they do make more money on cargo (delivering packages) than passengers, but trying to optimize seating for the most profit is not any different than a company trying to maximize its profit through any other means.
I fly a lot and it can be uncomfortable for sure. I don't like how close they are together but I understand why they do it.
Of course, that's why they do it.
If I have any option to drive, I will DRIVE rather than cram myself into a plane seat where my knees get tucked up under my chin. And more like than not, the bozo in front of my is going to recline his seat. I'm 6 foot 1, have 2 bad knees and one bad ankle, and those legs need some stretch room. (So taking the bulkhead seat at the beginning of the cabin is even worse for me.) They won't get an iota of my moolah if and when I can help it. I last flew in 2014, for Dad, who was terminally ill. I won't fly for pleasure, that's for sure.0 -
I'm fairly petite (5'3") and an average sized female. One of my gripes with the air plane seats is simply that lack of padding in the seat cushions. Unless you are fairly well padded, those seats start to feel like concrete after a while!
Also, I sometimes feel like larger passengers see me and think, there's extra space next to her, she's small. It's not ideal but I get the logic there.
Besides air plane seats, does anyone else find themselves being stuck with getting into the furthest seats in a car just because you're smaller or look more agile? I"ll be 60 in a few years and I still get stuck in the way back of cars because I'm the smallest!2
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