Struggling on Keto
Replies
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Just no on protein turning to sugar in the absence of dietary fat.
no but a body can turn protein into glucose if needed through gluconeogenesis
And what is glucose? Sugar5 -
Both dietary fat and protein convert to glucose through glucenogenesis. I always find it interesting thayt those following keto don't recognize that too much fat, just like over consumption of protein, can increase gluconeogenesis.
OP, if you want increase your carbs a bit. I found keto too restrictive even with a modified plan. Being low carb might better suited for you or even a moderate deficit.
Your body will convert just enough for it's needs, keeping sugar and insulin steady in your system. Please don't assume what I do and don't recognize. I wasn't suggesting that overeating fats is going to help lose weight. I was suggesting that transitioning to keto isn't a fast process and at the beginning eating a little extra fat helps make the transition.
I was trying to assist the OP with her keto diet rather than saying don't do it. I wont presume to know her specific reasons so I won't insult her choices.
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Just no on protein turning to sugar in the absence of dietary fat.
no but a body can turn protein into glucose if needed through gluconeogenesis
And what is glucose? Sugar
yes and it can be converted IF needed. but you made it sound like it would be turned into sugar if fat was restricted. fat still can be burned IN A DEFICIT whether keto or not. I restrict fat and have had NO issues when I was losing weight. Im maintaining and still losing fat because Im recomping and I eat a lot of carbs and low fat amd moderate protein. so if any of those things I am doing hindered fat loss then I would have never lost weight or fat or continue to do so. I have done keto in the past before I knew I had a health issue restricting me from doing said diet and fat loss was NOT any faster than it is now or while I was in a deficit.3 -
JanesWorld1985 wrote: »I drink at LEAST a gallon of water a day.. sometimes two. I drink a lot prior to meals and first thing in the morning. Sometimes you have to power through that hunger!
Or even better,
Drink at least enough water a day to suit your activity level and other environmental factors. To do this, drink fluids (water is good but any fluids will work) when you feel thirsty.
Stop relying on deprivation and willpower to lose weight. Eat when you're hungry in a manner that makes you feel satisfied and meets your calorie goals. If you're so hungry you need to 'power through' then your approach is probably not right for you. Change things up and look for a solution that works better for you.
Give yourself a break, find a better way and stop struggling!!14 -
Both dietary fat and protein convert to glucose through glucenogenesis. I always find it interesting thayt those following keto don't recognize that too much fat, just like over consumption of protein, can increase gluconeogenesis.
OP, if you want increase your carbs a bit. I found keto too restrictive even with a modified plan. Being low carb might better suited for you or even a moderate deficit.
Your body will convert just enough for it's needs, keeping sugar and insulin steady in your system. Please don't assume what I do and don't recognize. I wasn't suggesting that overeating fats is going to help lose weight. I was suggesting that transitioning to keto isn't a fast process and at the beginning eating a little extra fat helps make the transition.
I was trying to assist the OP with her keto diet rather than saying don't do it. I wont presume to know her specific reasons so I won't insult her choices.
If you did know it, it certainly didn't read that way. Glucenogenesis doesn't occur singularly, it pulls from both energy sources to create glucose. If you ate very little protein and a ton of fat, glucenogenesis would still occur. And even so, what would be the issue if your body is creating glucose?
There is no evidence shown by a study, that indicates that eating protein will slow the process. Certainly if one is concerned with getting into ketosis they can take a few approaches; fasting, glycogen depletion workouts, and extreme carb restriction.
Also, if you look at studies that hold protein and calories steady, there is no fat loss difference. The only ones that show an increase in fat loss for low carb and ketogenic diets are ones that have more protein. In fact, if you look at any study that holds calories equivalent, the one with high protein always has greater fat loss.
ETA: Gluconegenesis occurs roughly at a 60/40 (protein/fat) ratio.10 -
Tracey,CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »Another piece of advice I've seen floated around is that it can help to do a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism. That's the scuttlebutt. But then again, low-intensity exercise doesn't really hurt, so why not give it a try?
may I ask where you got this info from?
This I gathered from a wealth of published studies where ketosis is induced in the test subjects through exercise. I'll link you to a search term through Google Scholar here.
The ketogenic diet, being a front-line medical therapy for a number of conditions, and unlike other diets, is fairly well studied. Including recent studies on otherwise 'healthy' (not condition specific) test subjects for efficacy in body fat and overall weight reduction.
This of course, measures the net effect of putting subjects on the ketogenic diet so it's not as if CICO doesn't apply. But you'll find as you read into the ketogenic diet that it is very effective.2 -
davidylin04 wrote: »
Tracey,CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »Another piece of advice I've seen floated around is that it can help to do a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism. That's the scuttlebutt. But then again, low-intensity exercise doesn't really hurt, so why not give it a try?
may I ask where you got this info from?
This I gathered from a wealth of published studies where ketosis is induced in the test subjects through exercise. I'll link you to a search term through Google Scholar here.
The ketogenic diet, being a front-line medical therapy for a number of conditions, and unlike other diets, is fairly well studied. Including recent studies on otherwise 'healthy' (not condition specific) test subjects for efficacy in body fat and overall weight reduction.
This of course, measures the net effect of putting subjects on the ketogenic diet so it's not as if CICO doesn't apply. But you'll find as you read into the ketogenic diet that it is very effective.
its effective for some not all. and its only been effective in certain health conditions so far such as type 2,pcos,IR and epilepsy. it has helped some with alzheimers but the studies on that are still not conclusive.as for fat loss the fat loss may be quicker to a certain point in those that are obese but the studies show that the rate of fat loss slows down and they still have to be in a deficit. keto made my health issues worse and my health decline,so it wasnt effective for me or my healt issues. oh and many of the studies you linked to through google scholar are behind paywalls. Im not paying for studies where I can get them elsewhere for free4 -
oh and most of the studies state NAFLD,elderly and people with type 2. I cant find one that shows a study in a healthy person on the page you linked. as for entering ketosis during exercise that can also happen if a person fasts. and works out before they break the fast and it can happen without them thinking about it. but thats another subject that I have not thoroughly studied yet. fat burning is also not any faster in fasted states either. like I said when I did keto before I knew I had a health issue my fat loss wasnt any faster than it was during non keto and I was obese. I lost a total of 5 lbs of water weight and that was it during the 2 months I did it.3
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I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.9 -
davidylin04 wrote: »I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.
Weight loss reduces inflammation, if one suffers from chronic inflammation. But keep in mind that not all inflammation is a bad thing... Its a natural physiological responds to a stimulous (ex - lifting causing microtears in your muscles).8 -
First of all don't listen to me now because I will tell you later...what i've gather from osmosis is this diet is not for you. Dump it and go for simple more protein and find a fun and social engaging exercises classes. I'd get a trainer oh yea i got one. It smells like you might have some food issues that should be addressed. I love that song by Alissia i think... scars are your beauty? You know what to do. Make a couple of hard decisions and I'm so lame...go for it ...you can do it.1
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davidylin04 wrote: »I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.
keto made my RA and inflammation worse so for it reducing inflammation for me it did not. it made my condition worse. as for brisk walking in itself I dont see how that can induce a state of ketosis unless a person had been fasting and their body is low on carbs/glycogen. just a fast pace(brisk) walk in itself is not going to induce keto. ketosis happens when the body and liver is depleted of glycogen and your body produces ketones as fuel to run on instead of glucose.
that would be saying that someone like me who eats a lot of carbs just brisk walking a few times a day would induce keto. I doubt that is going to happen. now it might be possible if you worked out and did so at a pace and high intensity where you depelete your glycogen stores you may enter ketosis for a short time(could also end up with hypoglycemia). but your body would possibly break down protein to make glucose and then be stored as glycogen if needed. but I would think that would mean you would need to have an absence of carbs as well to stay in ketosis as ketosis happens when carb intake is very minimal. not to mention fat can also be turned into glucose if needed2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.
keto made my RA and inflammation worse so for it reducing inflammation for me it did not. it made my condition worse. as for brisk walking in itself I dont see how that can induce a state of ketosis unless a person had been fasting and their body is low on carbs/glycogen. just a fast pace(brisk) walk in itself is not going to induce keto. ketosis happens when the body and liver is depleted of glycogen and your body produces ketones as fuel to run on instead of glucose.
that would be saying that someone like me who eats a lot of carbs just brisk walking a few times a day would induce keto. I doubt that is going to happen. now it might be possible if you worked out and did so at a pace and high intensity where you depelete your glycogen stores you may enter ketosis for a short time(could also end up with hypoglycemia). but your body would possibly break down protein to make glucose and then be stored as glycogen if needed. but I would think that would mean you would need to have an absence of carbs as well to stay in ketosis as ketosis happens when carb intake is very minimal. not to mention fat can also be turned into glucose if needed
Do you know how many months you were in nutritional ketosis before your RA became worse. I thought I was going to die when I first started to getting into a state of nutritional ketosis (first two weeks on the Keto WOE) but I think it may have been the die off of a serious overgrowth of candida in my case. Pain management of my AS was well underway by day 30 but took about a year to take away most all of the pain. It was on day 30 that I was to start on Enbrel injections but I was able to tell the doctor no because I had indication that Keto was working in my weakened state of health.
I felt bad the ENTIRE first year eating the Keto WOE but I saw it as my only hope of slowing down my rush to a premature death. My fear of Keto was much less than my fear of Enbrel in my case because I know Enbrel is designed to weaken one's immune system and that is the last thing I need. I had felt bad the ENTIRE 30 years prior to starting keto Oct 2014 so feeling bad but with decreasing pain levels was an improvement in my health.
Four years later at the age of 67 I do not feel like a healthy 16 year old guy but I now do have hope of walking and talking at least to the age of 110. Today is my long therapy day working to remove deposits out of my joints damaged with my Ankylosing Spondylitis prior to four years ago. These days are hard but I want to keep walking and driving with better skills and that is slowly happening.
You are the only case I have heard of Keto not helping long term with arthritis but you know your body better than anyone else living today.12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.
keto made my RA and inflammation worse so for it reducing inflammation for me it did not. it made my condition worse. as for brisk walking in itself I dont see how that can induce a state of ketosis unless a person had been fasting and their body is low on carbs/glycogen. just a fast pace(brisk) walk in itself is not going to induce keto. ketosis happens when the body and liver is depleted of glycogen and your body produces ketones as fuel to run on instead of glucose.
that would be saying that someone like me who eats a lot of carbs just brisk walking a few times a day would induce keto. I doubt that is going to happen. now it might be possible if you worked out and did so at a pace and high intensity where you depelete your glycogen stores you may enter ketosis for a short time(could also end up with hypoglycemia). but your body would possibly break down protein to make glucose and then be stored as glycogen if needed. but I would think that would mean you would need to have an absence of carbs as well to stay in ketosis as ketosis happens when carb intake is very minimal. not to mention fat can also be turned into glucose if needed
Do you know how many months you were in nutritional ketosis before your RA became worse. I thought I was going to die when I first started to getting into a state of nutritional ketosis (first two weeks on the Keto WOE) but I think it may have been the die off of a serious overgrowth of candida in my case. Pain management of my AS was well underway by day 30 but took about a year to take away most all of the pain. It was on day 30 that I was to start on Enbrel injections but I was able to tell the doctor no because I had indication that Keto was working in my weakened state of health.
I felt bad the ENTIRE first year eating the Keto WOE but I saw it as my only hope of slowing down my rush to a premature death. My fear of Keto was much less than my fear of Enbrel in my case because I know Enbrel is designed to weaken one's immune system and that is the last thing I need. I had felt bad the ENTIRE 30 years prior to starting keto Oct 2014 so feeling bad but with decreasing pain levels was an improvement in my health.
Four years later at the age of 67 I do not feel like a healthy 16 year old guy but I now do have hope of walking and talking at least to the age of 110. Today is my long therapy day working to remove deposits out of my joints damaged with my Ankylosing Spondylitis prior to four years ago. These days are hard but I want to keep walking and driving with better skills and that is slowly happening.
You are the only case I have heard of Keto not helping long term with arthritis but you know your body better than anyone else living today.
I have Ankylosing Spondylitis as well, and am curious as to what your 'long therapy day' consists of?4 -
Instead of linking to the search page how about linking to one of the studies that actually show that "a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism". Because the ones I looked at didn't said what you think it says.davidylin04 wrote: »
Tracey,CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »Another piece of advice I've seen floated around is that it can help to do a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism. That's the scuttlebutt. But then again, low-intensity exercise doesn't really hurt, so why not give it a try?
may I ask where you got this info from?
This I gathered from a wealth of published studies where ketosis is induced in the test subjects through exercise. I'll link you to a search term through Google Scholar here.
Ummm, no. No it's not a front-line therapy for any condition. It has been used with success in people who fail antiseizure meds. But the meds are always first-line therapy.The ketogenic diet, being a front-line medical therapy for a number of conditions,
Many diets are well studied, some more than keto. They all come to pretty much the same conclusion, eat less and move more and you'll lose weight. No magical benefits from any diet.and unlike other diets, is fairly well studied. Including recent studies on otherwise 'healthy' (not condition specific) test subjects for efficacy in body fat and overall weight reduction.
10 -
Instead of linking to the search page how about linking to one of the studies that actually show that "a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism". Because the ones I looked at didn't said what you think it says.davidylin04 wrote: »
Tracey,CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »Another piece of advice I've seen floated around is that it can help to do a lot of brisk walking to kick your body over into fat metabolism. That's the scuttlebutt. But then again, low-intensity exercise doesn't really hurt, so why not give it a try?
may I ask where you got this info from?
This I gathered from a wealth of published studies where ketosis is induced in the test subjects through exercise. I'll link you to a search term through Google Scholar here.
Ummm, no. No it's not a front-line therapy for any condition. It has been used with success in people who fail antiseizure meds. But the meds are always first-line therapy.The ketogenic diet, being a front-line medical therapy for a number of conditions,
Many diets are well studied, some more than keto. They all come to pretty much the same conclusion, eat less and move more and you'll lose weight. No magical benefits from any diet.and unlike other diets, is fairly well studied. Including recent studies on otherwise 'healthy' (not condition specific) test subjects for efficacy in body fat and overall weight reduction.
# evidence
Meta analysis of 35 (I think) studies in which protein ands calories were held constant. No metabolic advantage to keto.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568065/
As far as keto being a front line strategy for a number of conditions, that's just plain made up nonsense and in no way true.
12 -
To the OP:
Whether you continue to go with keto or not is up to you. When done right, it's a perfectly valid method for weight/fat loss. So I'm not going to recommend against it (although I don't prefer it myself).
One quick word of caution if you decide to stop doing keto. Remember that when you started you most likely had a pretty big drop the first week or two. That comes from the release of glycogen stores when your body goes into ketosis. When you stop keto, those glycogen stores are replenished and will show up as weight gain. It won't be fat. But you should be aware of this and not get discouraged because you've suddenly gained weight when you stop. Whatever fat you've lost doing keto will still be lost (unless you eat more calories than you burn).
Carry on...4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »davidylin04 wrote: »I'll remind you that I linked you to a search term to show how brisk walking is used to induce a state of Ketosis. If you want to learn more about ketogenic diets in general, change the search terms to ketogenic diet.
The ketogenic diet (macronutrient ratio) has been very effective for me personally. I'm looking at studies that demonstrate a number of other beneficial effects from altering the balance of various microbiomes within the body, reducing inflammation, and a number of other things.
I mean, taking an overall look, there are front-line drugs that worsen conditions in a minority of patients rather than benefiting them, so overall I would say that with any diet, even calorie reduction, you really have to go with what works for you. Keto will definitely work for some - probably most people. Just don't do what my buddy does and think keto means unlimited bacon.
keto made my RA and inflammation worse so for it reducing inflammation for me it did not. it made my condition worse. as for brisk walking in itself I dont see how that can induce a state of ketosis unless a person had been fasting and their body is low on carbs/glycogen. just a fast pace(brisk) walk in itself is not going to induce keto. ketosis happens when the body and liver is depleted of glycogen and your body produces ketones as fuel to run on instead of glucose.
that would be saying that someone like me who eats a lot of carbs just brisk walking a few times a day would induce keto. I doubt that is going to happen. now it might be possible if you worked out and did so at a pace and high intensity where you depelete your glycogen stores you may enter ketosis for a short time(could also end up with hypoglycemia). but your body would possibly break down protein to make glucose and then be stored as glycogen if needed. but I would think that would mean you would need to have an absence of carbs as well to stay in ketosis as ketosis happens when carb intake is very minimal. not to mention fat can also be turned into glucose if needed
Do you know how many months you were in nutritional ketosis before your RA became worse. I thought I was going to die when I first started to getting into a state of nutritional ketosis (first two weeks on the Keto WOE) but I think it may have been the die off of a serious overgrowth of candida in my case. Pain management of my AS was well underway by day 30 but took about a year to take away most all of the pain. It was on day 30 that I was to start on Enbrel injections but I was able to tell the doctor no because I had indication that Keto was working in my weakened state of health.
I felt bad the ENTIRE first year eating the Keto WOE but I saw it as my only hope of slowing down my rush to a premature death. My fear of Keto was much less than my fear of Enbrel in my case because I know Enbrel is designed to weaken one's immune system and that is the last thing I need. I had felt bad the ENTIRE 30 years prior to starting keto Oct 2014 so feeling bad but with decreasing pain levels was an improvement in my health.
Four years later at the age of 67 I do not feel like a healthy 16 year old guy but I now do have hope of walking and talking at least to the age of 110. Today is my long therapy day working to remove deposits out of my joints damaged with my Ankylosing Spondylitis prior to four years ago. These days are hard but I want to keep walking and driving with better skills and that is slowly happening.
You are the only case I have heard of Keto not helping long term with arthritis but you know your body better than anyone else living today.
I was doing keto for 2 months. I have yet to take meds for my RA. I have not needed them but when I was doing keto it made ALL my aches,pains 10x worse. the pressure points were severely tender,I was forgetting things easily,my stomach issues became worse,was hungry all the time.it did not give me energy in fact it zapped any I had.I had severe headaches,could barely get out of bed, I literally could not function as a normal person.I was fine before I started keto too. I did not have candida.Once I stopped doing keto my health started to improve,my aches and pains improved,everything improved and I still have yet to take meds for my RA. you may not have heard of anyone else being helped on keto but there are many here who have said keto did not help a lot of their health conditions and made them worse. My body cannot handle the high amounts of fats and trying to produce ketones. it makes me very sick to try.I would not do it again7
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