Supersetting: weight session and cardio all in one?
Julian5656
Posts: 16 Member
So I have a limited amount of time a day to workout, my goal is to burn fat and build muscle(over time not necessarily at once), so I came up with this ingenious plan (I think)..
Let's say i do a full body routine, I've got 5 exercises for 5 different muscle groups (chest, back, legs, shoulders, abs), I do one exercise for each of those muscle groups consecutively without rest.
This means I'm taking roughly 90 seconds of active rest before hitting that muscle again ( standard rest between sets), while keeping my heart rate up since I'm constantly moving (yesterdays weight session felt like 5 rounds of 400m sprints), and my workout takes only 20 mins! Weight lifting and cardio all in one.
You can do this with other types of split routines too, not just full body workouts.
Also I'm not rushing my sets so I'm still getting good form and contraction.
Let me know your thoughts.
Let's say i do a full body routine, I've got 5 exercises for 5 different muscle groups (chest, back, legs, shoulders, abs), I do one exercise for each of those muscle groups consecutively without rest.
This means I'm taking roughly 90 seconds of active rest before hitting that muscle again ( standard rest between sets), while keeping my heart rate up since I'm constantly moving (yesterdays weight session felt like 5 rounds of 400m sprints), and my workout takes only 20 mins! Weight lifting and cardio all in one.
You can do this with other types of split routines too, not just full body workouts.
Also I'm not rushing my sets so I'm still getting good form and contraction.
Let me know your thoughts.
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Replies
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It's probably not ideal, but I don't think it will hurt you or prevent you from progressing towards your goals.
I do think it's worth considering if the reduced strength and cardio benefit you're getting from this type of workout is worth the tradeoff for a shortened/condescend workout time. There isn't really a right or wrong answer... That's a decision you'll have to make for yourself based on your priorities.2 -
Sounds like circuits1
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More or less0
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I posted this in your other thread...It's probably not ideal, but I don't think it will hurt you or prevent you from progressing towards your goals.
I do think it's worth considering if the reduced strength and cardio benefit you're getting from this type of workout is worth the tradeoff for a shortened/condescend workout time. There isn't really a right or wrong answer... That's a decision you'll have to make for yourself based on your priorities.3 -
@jjpptt2 , thanks for your insight! I saw it. Posted in the other forum by accident.0
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Have you thought about supersetting everything with a complimentary strongman type cardio exercise? IE superset a squat or deadlift set with flipping a tire for a minute, overhead presses with timed sledgehammer hits, upright rows with a farmers walk, etc? I've had pretty good results with that type of stuff, and while it is basically HIIT cardio it also doubles down on the muscle group you are training.1
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@youcantflexcardio , I have considered that, strongman lifts make you feel like an absolute beast, it's awesome.
so yea, doing a HIIT exercise during the time that you would normally rest sounds like another option. But I feel that doing a strong man exercise for the same muscle group would make me burn out the muscle, and I'd end up doing a half job on the 'muscle building' sets.
So instead im supersetting opposite muscle groups, and purely muscle building type exercises and rep ranges. I find this gets my heart rate up just as well as a HIIT session, while still getting the benefits of a bodybuilding routine.
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Julian5656 wrote: »@youcantflexcardio , I have considered that, strongman lifts make you feel like an absolute beast, it's awesome.
so yea, doing a HIIT exercise during the time that you would normally rest sounds like another option. But I feel that doing a strong man exercise for the same muscle group would make me burn out the muscle, and I'd end up doing a half job on the 'muscle building' sets.
So instead im supersetting opposite muscle groups, and purely muscle building type exercises and rep ranges. I find this gets my heart rate up just as well as a HIIT session, while still getting the benefits of a bodybuilding routine.
You are quite right that it tires you out for the muscle building sets. I didn't really think about it, but when I do that stuff it is typically at the end of my training - I do heavy compounds FIRST, then accessory lifts, then I go back to compounds at a lighter weight and superset with the strongman stuff to finish it off. Of course, I have it set up so I have all the time In the world to train and take as long as I would like, add in extra sets if I'm feeling froggy, etc.
If you're crunched for time, your way seems pretty good - like others said, basically a circuit. That being said, if you have 3 days to lift minimum, I might suggest a split of Chest/Bi's, Back/Tris, Shoulders/legs. The opposing push/pull on the chest/bis & back/tris days works really well for supersetting. On the legs and shoulders day you could easily build a circuit of quads/delts/hams/traps/calves/REST that also allows for supersetting. This might allow for each muscle group to get more work in your allotted time frame, just food for thought.
Cheers.
EDIT: The only PROBLEM I see with your "circuit" is that whatever lift is at the beginning of it directly after your rest is going to get your max effort, while the ones later down the line are not (not saying you got put effort in, it's just fact). Doesn't matter if you can OHP 100lb Dumbells for sets of 10 - if you do bench, and squats before hand and jump in to the OHPs with no rest and an elevated heart rate, you probably aren't getting 10 even though the squats work the other half of your body.3 -
Depending on your goal, it may be fine. You're going to have to use less weight on at least some exercises by doing this. But that might not bother you.
Also, are you talking about doing one rep of each exercise during each 90 second period? Or doing a set of each all in a 90 second period?0 -
Does anyone know if that can actually be considered cardiovascular? I get that the heart rate is elevated, but...
Anyway, I make time for proper weights and cardio. Most of us can find the time by eliminating other things.1 -
@jemhh , strangely enough, I find I don't need to drop the weight since each muscle is getting adequate rest.
And I mean doing a set of each in roughly 90 seconds. So it's basically a weight lifting circuit. For instance, 12 reps bench press, 12 reps squats straight after and so on..by the time I get around to bench press again 90 seconds has elapsed.0 -
Sounds more like circuit training - which is a valid training modality but like all methods there are compromises.
The danger is that you have both an ineffective weights workout and an ineffective cardio workout. For my training goals it would be pretty much a waste of time beyond being a fairly fun way to train.
Random thoughts:- Keeping HR up isn't a training goal for weights/strength training. It can be counter-productive.
- Good form doesn't make up for inadequate volume.
- Feeling hard isn't the same as effective.
Training choices is down to goals, capabilities and restrictions - including time restriction in your case. It might be the best compromise you personally can make right now but it's not a solution for everyone.7 -
@kshama2001 , it would be similar to a HIIT workout. It's anaerobic exercise as apposed to aerobic, but still very much cardio.
Working 15 hours a day with a full time job and part time degree.. I've cut out everything I can.5 -
Julian5656 wrote: »@kshama2001 , it would be similar to a HIIT workout. It's anaerobic exercise as apposed to aerobic, but still very much cardio.
Working 15 hours a day with a full time job and part time degree.. I've cut out everything I can.
If your current goal is to retain some muscle mass as you diet/cut down to a good starting point before you start to bulk - your current plan is probably fine, combined with proper nutrition (deficit). However, I also think that when you do start to legitimately train to build muscle you could maybe find an extra 40 minutes to add to your workout for a proper lifting program that would be more optimal towards that specific goal.2 -
@sijomial , I hear you, all valid points. There's a trade off between volume & intensity on the one hand and cardio on the other. I try to balance them. If I had more time I'd probably train differently. But I think this is a great option for busy people wanting the benefits of both weights and cardio.1
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@youcantflexcardio , that first training split you suggested is helpful, thanks!
And with regards to your edit..that's a really good point, I may need to alternate the starting exercises and perhaps the sequence of the following exercises to ensure my effort for each will be balanced at the end of the workout.0 -
Something isnt adding up.
If you are completing one round in ninty seconds, that mean five rounds totals seven and half minutes not twenty.
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@Chieflrg , maybe I could have been clearer. What I mean is I do 5 exercises consecutively. A round of 5 exercises might take me 90 seconds, maybe 2 mins. I then will take a rest before the next round, and I might even take a short rest between some of the exercises if I'm gassed. So with those rests included a workout is roughly 20 mins. Also, there's the time taken to move to the next exercise and set up.
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Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.1 -
@Chieflrg , yea I remember reading that about 60s rest and below is optimal..sort of like a traditional superset you're suggesting? I'll give that a try. Thanks.0
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I like that type of work. I like to use KBs to do it. They are great from moving quickly from one exercise to another. I'd use two 35 lbs KBs and do something like deadlifts (I know those aren't heavy for that but, hey, I'm 54 with cruddy knees), use my knees to assist them up the shoulders, do squats, then bend over and use them for double bent over rows, then military presses (perhaps some double KB swings too). All in quick succession. Sounds light and sounds easy but mix that in with something like jogging on a Stairmaster, heavy ropes and rowing spints along with Plyo Box Jumps and it's a nasty workout.2
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Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.
Do I understand you correctly that shorter rest periods is better for hypertrophy? I am under the impression, possibly incorrectly, that volume was the prime driver of hypertrophy. I'm just thinking that if I was only resting, say, 60 seconds after a good set before hitting the next one, it would cut into my volume as I would fatigue sooner.
Interested in your perspective as I respect your opinion and your experience based on your posts.0 -
Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
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jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
Thanks! My performance is definitely affected by rest periods and I was curious about what others had to say.3 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
Thanks for that. It jives with my understanding.3 -
My understanding isn't near what some of yours is (I've never been that into bodybuilding/strength training), but I'm a competitive rower. If you're talking absolute strength, then longer rest periods. There are other elements to strength, like how many reps you can do in X amount of time. I guess, from my simpleton perspective, endurance strength. I've heard it called "power endurance".
There was a challenge out there a while ago, the 100 ton challenge. Lifters were making a big deal out of it. I do 50 tons (or more) daily on the rowing machine. Each row is (roughly) equivalent to 80 to 100 lbs, each stroke (there's an App called ErgData that tells you the average per lb. stroke on a C2 machine and it's incredibly accurate). On a 10K meter row, you do 1000 strokes, or roughly the equivalent of 50 tons lifting in around 40 minutes.
This type of supersetting is useful to me, not for pure power, but lactic acid tolerance and power endurance. I know a guy that's an online training buddy of mine that is the Australian over 60 record holder on the 2K row. He's insanely good (and would beat many high school and some college rowers) for his age. The Australian Olympic rowing team studied him to find out why he was so good and put him through a bunch of physical tests, something pretty cool for a guy that's over 60 (to be studied by one of the best rowing teams in the world). What they found out was, essentially, this guy had such a gigantic tolerance for lactic acid that he wouldn't quit when others would have long stopped because the pain.
If you saw the Cross Fit games this year, they added a marathon on the rower. The winning time was pretty amazing. To maintain that power for nearly 3 hours, not many lifters could even attempt that, no matter how strong. They dropped that in as a surprise!! If you didn't train Power endurance, you were screwed on that as a competitor.
I've been on a rowing machine at the gym (I'm 54 and not that peak strong) and smoked a former D1 Football player next to me that I know can deadlift over 500 lbs, as he was a trainer at the gym I got to know) on a 5K row. He couldn't handle the number of reps that rowing took on a 5K all out assault. Though his power per stroke were way more that I can manage, he kept having to take breaks over and over. Could hardly even pull at the end. I could probably only deadlift a little over my weight, I don't try with an old back any more.
I honestly think both types of training are useful I just don't have the back or knees anymore to do all out power training.
There are "drills" for speed in rowing that reflect the short/longer rest discussion. If you want to work speed and aerobic at the same time, you might do 100m sprints with 1 minute rest. If you want to work pure speed/power, you'll make the rest periods longer. Both accomplish different, but important goals.
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Ok, if 60 seconds is too little for you to hit adequate volume on the next set, then you should increase your rest periods. You could make use of shorter rest periods if you want to overload and burn out the muscle ( the same reason why things like drop sets exist).
Required rest periods can vary between individuals and the type of exercises. I need more rest for certain exercises than for others , and my required rest depends on my current stamina.
We shouldn't prescribe a set rule of 60s, 90s as if there's some magical specific number that you just have to hit.
The general rule is, take just enough rest time to enable you to hit the next set at full capacity.0 -
I personally gained the most upper body size, doing low to no rest high volume lifting. I would do pyramids 15,12,8 rest 30s 8,12,15. then rest 60s and change the movement. I would do 3 main movements, and 3 iso movements. I would use light medium and heavy dumbells. I don't think this method helped my legs much, mostly my arms and chest responded to this type of training. I feel my legs are gaining better with my current method which is 5x5 power lifting with lots of rest between sets. Like 3 or 4 mins on my last set. Also, while I gained a good amount of size in my upper body, I basically gained zero strength, I very rarely tried to increase my weights while progressing thru that program. This program required a lot endurance, and fortitude. It was less like strength training and more like survival. I don't really think there is a one size fits all method to building size. Its definitely not as figured out as gaining strength, that's for sure.0
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I agree with you if we are discussing either strength or hypertrophy the driver is volume at a useful intensity.Oh I read it as you take roughly 90 seconds before you hit that exercise again. Which would be a entire round of the five.
Take it for what it worth but since your goal is hypertrophy then you might have better results if your use several groupings of two so the rest periods isn't so long in between sets for the same exercise. Most people respond best to rest periods of 15-60 seconds per exercise.
Do I understand you correctly that shorter rest periods is better for hypertrophy? I am under the impression, possibly incorrectly, that volume was the prime driver of hypertrophy. I'm just thinking that if I was only resting, say, 60 seconds after a good set before hitting the next one, it would cut into my volume as I would fatigue sooner.
Interested in your perspective as I respect your opinion and your experience based on your posts.
In this case the OP is describing twenty minutes or less for five different exercises. Which isn't ideal, but there are ways to optimalize this situation.
1. Making the rest periods shorter with the appropriate amount of volume, but keeping the tonage lighter overall. By shrinking the rest periods this will drive the intensity to a useful level even though it relatively low when compared to the 1RM. It's been shown that even at 30% some lifters will respond well.
2. We could also utilze myo reps for the smaller muscles. Studies have shown that this is a very efficient way to produce hypertrophy when perform correctly. This utilizes about 15 seconds of rest after the initial activation set.
3. Time would be crunched in this situation but a another way is to set a timer to six minutes and do as many reps as possible while leaving one maybe two in the tank. This will get a good amount of volume with some autoregulation.
The idea with is getting close to failure while activating all the muscle fibers possible to achieve hypertrophy.
Obviously there are endless possibilities to how we achieve volume, intensity, and adequate recovery.
My recommendation is just one that on average would give a good response to most lifters with the hypertrophy primary goal.
* Edit to add~
* This would not mean you would use the exact same weight for each lift that you do currently, but a lighter but relative to the rep scheme/rest time.
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jseams1234 wrote: »Schoenfeld and a bevy of other researchers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26605807
Longer Interset Rest Periods Enhance Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Resistance-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld, BJ, Pope, ZK, Benik, FM, Hester, GM, Sellers, J, Nooner, JL, Schnaiter, JA, Bond-Williams, KE, Carter, AS, Ross, CL, Just, BL, Henselmans, M, and Krieger, JW
I agree with mmapags - super short rest periods would severely impact my performance and would impact not only my volume but intensity. I'm failing to find any current research that suggest such short rest periods are good for either strength or hypertrophy.
There are many. Here is one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28617715
Once again, I'm not saying this is optimal for everyone or for full body, but in the case with time limits the OP posted, it is a option.0
This discussion has been closed.
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