What about intermittent fasting
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@psuLemon fung is a nephrologist just to clear things up
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So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.30 -
So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.
CICO isn't something you 'try' like a diet, because it isn't a diet. Also, calorie counting isn't CICO hence your confusion.17 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »@psuLemon fung is a nephrologist just to clear things up
Thanks.. its been awhile since i looked at his background.3 -
CICO isn't a control method it's the energy balance equation.
And the main reasons that obesity has reached the proportions it has? Abundance of food and a society that has become much more sedentary as a whole.
From http://nwcr.ws/default.htmThe NWCR is tracking over 10,000 individuals who have lost significant amounts of weight and kept it off for long periods of time. Detailed questionnaires and annual follow-up surveys are used to examine the behavioral and psychological characteristics of weight maintainers, as well as the strategies they use to maintaining their weight losses.
As for why many people regain the weight? A few reasons:- People successfully take the weight off by adopting a different way of eating/fitness regimen temporarily. Once they reach their goal (or get discouraged before they do), they go right back to their old ways of eating and drop the exercise.
- Many weight-loss plans—especially the fad diets—are all about shedding the pounds, but don't advise on how to maintain the loss. (This also answers your question about why the diet food companies are still in business.)
- Losing weight provides its own encouragement/reinforcement. It's empowering to see the scale numbers go down. Maintenance is more of a 'same-old, same-old', and it can be easy to slack off, not notice portion sizes gradually creeping up, figure "I've been doing this for X amount of time; I know what I'm doing" and stop logging.
- Life throws curves (illness, crisis, marriage, divorce, month-long cruises with 24-hour all-you-can-eat buffets) and we decide we need to take a break from focusing on what we're eating and deal with what needs dealing. Only somehow we don't get back on track afterwards.
- People who lost weight temporarily on plans lacking long-term sustainability go back to them because they've worked before, albeit in the short term. And they work again... in the short term.
- People buy into the current snake oil salesperson telling them that weight loss can't possibly be as simple (note: simple != easy) as "Eat less, move more" and the blame has to fall almost completely on the shoulders of genes/hormones/Big Sugar/Big Dairy/Big Oil/GMOs/Processed food/Sneaky food scientists making addictive snacks/Insert latest woo here.*
*Not saying that some of this list can't play a part, but it's a minor part.
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So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.
The easiest thing to understand is that we burn energy and that energy has to come from somewhere. We either take it in with food or we use energy stores. It is elementary school science.
I don't know why most diets fail. I know most of mine failed because I either didn't understand scale fluctuations, I complicated the weight loss process, I was too restrictive/aggressive, or some combination of the three.
I think the scale trips up a large number of people. Accurately counting calories probably gets a fair amount of people too considering how many people this forum has helped with it.
I have been watching my weight decline for almost a year and it very closely matches the simple principles of CICO. I also skip breakfast but I have done that for years and gained plenty of weight doing it.7 -
So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.
I am fully aware how metabolic syndrome is combatted. If one has Diabetes, PCOS or IR, than its beneficial to follow LCHF or keto.
CICO is energy balance. Its been proven by thousands of metabolic ward studies. Actual science as opposed to anecdotal evidence. If you think keto or IF defies CICO, go eat 6000 calories for an extended period of time and see the results. I have personally trained people and helped people lose weight after gaining 20 or 30 lbs following these diets because they believe the stuff promoted by people like Fung.
Also, all of those people i have listed have PhDs, have trained thousands of people, hold/held records in powerlifting or bodybuilding, and gotten people more fit than anything Fung has done. And that is ok, because their audience is different.
Have you watched the video or read the meta analysis i posted? Do you want to see other meta analyses that say the same thing? Fung isn't doing anything revolutionary. He is trying to follow the whole insulin obesity hypothesis, which is been pretty beat down by several metabolic ward studies.10 -
Hi , i heared a lot about the IF , people are using it to lose weight . Personally , i was using this pattern since 2 weeks , at first i was fasting 16 hours and i was eating for 8 hours , than after 3 days i started fasting 20 hours , i lost 1.5 kg during this period , i hope you share with me your succes story using this pattern if you've tried it .
The most recent I'd heard about it involved 3 days of very low calories followed by two days of no restrictions. The idea of it is that on the 2 unrestricted days, the people ate about 120% of their normal daily intake, while on the three restricted days they ate 25% of their normal daily intake.
Doing the CICO math, that always leads to weight loss. It also has the good result that the person's NEAT is not reduced. 3 restricted days are not enough to change it, and 2 unrestricted days are enough to repair any damage that was done.
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I want to add, i would never discourage anyone from following this diet because the most important thing is adherence, but i have done the diets and both sucked for me. I was much more successful with another method.8
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Also keep in mind that many (too many) people make snap judgments about what is working or not way too early in the weight loss process. When this happens Success/Fail seems much more dependent on water weight losses than fat losses.5
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Some great replies here! I was short in my latest one because life, and was coming back to it this morning to elaborate. I see I no longer have to.
@Bigfla - Even if, as you said up-thread, you choose to no longer participate, I do hope you take the time to consider the solid, scientifically-proven information that's been offered you. There has been absolutely nothing mean-spirited here on our part. You are not the first person to have confused CICO with being synonymous to calorie counting. It's a rather common misunderstanding.
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So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.
To the bolded, that IS his point, and the point is most certainly up for debate. It is very easy to make the argument that obesity is the disease, not a symptom. There are tons of people right here on MFP who lost weight without changing the composition or schedule of their diet and saw many of the symptoms of metabolic syndrome disappear. There are traditional cultures all over the world eating a high carb diet (veggies, fruits, grains, beans, wine, etc) on a traditional schedule who do not struggle with obesity and do not exhibit any of the metabolic syndrome diseases.
The problem with arguing that the old guidelines didn't work is that most people never actually followed the old guidelines. WW, Jenny Craig , diet shakes aren't "CICO", they are diet plans that try to force people to eat in a way they don't want to. They fail because people don't stick to them.
I would also argue that I know a lot of people who lost weight back in the day with WW and kept it off, because it taught them to stop and look at what they were eating and determine if it was worth the "points", so they learned what foods filled them up and what foods didn't and now eat with purpose. The problem with WW is they keep changing the rules to get more customers and often put out a plan that makes no sense in the process.
If you do a quick search of the forums, you'll find many of us have read Dr. Fung's work and that we have been debating it for years. You are not the first person to bring him up, and basing your argument on the fact that we aren't familiar with him isn't strong ground to start on.
*
To the OP: I did IF for about 2 years, I realized I wasn't hungry in the AM so I kind of accidentally ended up doing 16:8. It was a great way to control my appetite and avoid "opening the flood gates" of thinking about food until later in the day. But a few months ago, I started waking up really hungry, and after trying to power through it for a few weeks decided to go back to eating a little something in the morning. If I get to the point again where I'm not hungry in the morning I'd happily go back to it. But other than appetite/hunger signals I didn't personally find any additional benefits, like calorie needs, energy, that sort of thing. Sorry your thread turned into an argument. I hope it keeps working well for you!10 -
To the OP: I did IF for about 2 years, I realized I wasn't hungry in the AM so I kind of accidentally ended up doing 16:8. It was a great way to control my appetite and avoid "opening the flood gates" of thinking about food until later in the day. But a few months ago, I started waking up really hungry, and after trying to power through it for a few weeks decided to go back to eating a little something in the morning. If I get to the point again where I'm not hungry in the morning I'd happily go back to it. But other than appetite/hunger signals I didn't personally find any additional benefits, like calorie needs, energy, that sort of thing. Sorry your thread turned into an argument. I hope it keeps working well for you!
Just a thought but has your sleep pattern changed? Have you been tested for Apnea? I ask because I am pretty much forced to skip breakfast. This is okay normally but if I struggle to sleep the next day I have a harder time being hungry in the morning.
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Thanks, ccdragon, lemurcat and snickerscharlie.
Sorry, but I get very tired of your kind of feedback and the arrogant assumption that you're an expert and I'm an idiot. I have been fighting overweight for more than 50 years. I assure you, as night follows day, that CICO doesn't work having suffered its disappointments many times.
Come on, guys, you can do better than come up with charts like that one above. You can't really believe any physiological process is as simple as that, can you, really?? The thought that has bothered me for a very long time is that if the CICO theory is right, why does it always fail in the long term?
Finally, I'd ask you to refrain from contributing to this thread until you are better informed. Thanks.
I'd consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the subject, being one of the few who've figured out how to maintain my weight loss for the long term so I'll chime in-ccdragon, lemurcat and snickerscharlie (and cwolfman) are absolutely correct. And I say this as someone who did IF for years.
It's a tool that's useful for some people, to help them keep their calories in check. But it doesn't do anything magical besides that. I have years of blood work panels and health exams, (I get complete workups/exams twice a year)-some with IF and some without. There is no significant differences in any of my markers between my IF days and my non-IF times. What has made a difference though has been my weight loss. That normalized my pre-diabetic glucose number. That improved my cholesterol numbers etc.
IF was a tool that helped me achieve CICO a little bit easier, but I eventually got bored with it and stopped using it. Nothing has changed without it though, I've just shifted my calories around to different meal times. I'm still in excellent health and I'm still at a healthy BMI. My last blood work panel, done without IF being a factor, was great. As were my other health markers (waist ratio, blood pressure etc).
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As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
I'm confused, how is the existence of overweight people who are in energy surpluses evidence that cico doesn't work? It seems like the opposite would be the case. CICO isn't a diet, it describes energy balance. It applies to both gaining and losing body fat.6 -
To the OP: I did IF for about 2 years, I realized I wasn't hungry in the AM so I kind of accidentally ended up doing 16:8. It was a great way to control my appetite and avoid "opening the flood gates" of thinking about food until later in the day. But a few months ago, I started waking up really hungry, and after trying to power through it for a few weeks decided to go back to eating a little something in the morning. If I get to the point again where I'm not hungry in the morning I'd happily go back to it. But other than appetite/hunger signals I didn't personally find any additional benefits, like calorie needs, energy, that sort of thing. Sorry your thread turned into an argument. I hope it keeps working well for you!
Just a thought but has your sleep pattern changed? Have you been tested for Apnea? I ask because I am pretty much forced to skip breakfast. This is okay normally but if I struggle to sleep the next day I have a harder time being hungry in the morning.
Thanks, but no. I was working at home at the time and could basically pick my own bed time and wake time, and was pretty consistent throughout. I definitely find I'm hungrier on days I'm tired, but that's usually because I got caught up in a book or Netflix and stayed up way too late I've never been tested for apnea, but I've never had any reason to doubt my sleep quality. Now that I'm working at an office, I'm consistently hungry by 9AM regardless. 1 -
So you haven't read Dr Fung's books then? You might learn something if you did!
Also, he's a consultant nephrologist with a clinic in a poorer part of Toronto. He has seen thousands of patients over the years that he can probably divide into 2 categories. There are those who take his IF/LCHF advice and survive, and those who don't or can't and die early as a result, except that in the process lose their sight, suffer appalling rashes and undergo amputations among other horrors.
Along with obesity and type II diabetes, kidney disease is one of those categorised as metabolic syndrome. So before any weight loss program becomes meaningful, you have to understand its ability to counter metabolic syndrome. Obesity is a symptom, it is not a disease in its own right - that is Dr Fung's principal point. As I said before; since there are no analogues in the human body that detect and control calorie intake, CICO as a control method is irrelevant where control of diseases within metabolic syndrome is concerned.
As for proof that CICO doesn't work in the long-term for nearly everybody, look around you. There are two reasons that 2/3 of the people you see are overweight. The first is the travesty of the 1980s American Nutritional Guidelines. The second is that nearly all of them know CICO doesn't work because it is extremely likely most of them have tried it at some time or other and been disappointed. We're all bombarded with it, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, those ridiculous diet shake things and all the rest to include the CICO based "advice" from MFP!
If you don't believe the second reason is true, ask yourself why the diet food companies are still in business and thriving.
OK, mate, that's me done, I'm out. I wish you well.
I have, along with Varady's book, Mosley's and Johnson's books, I've spent hours and hours on Berkhan's Leangains site etc etc.
I maintain my weight loss because I understand how CICO works and I've made the necessary calorie adjustments to achieve my weight management goals. I used IF for a while, as a tool to make this a bit easier for me, but I got bored with it and no longer do IF. I'm still successfully maintaining without IF.8
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