It can’t all be calories in/out
Replies
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azzeazsaleh5429 wrote: »It is calories in and out but also insulin resistance. Many people who consume a lot of sugars become insulin resistant so their body stores excess sugars as fat because the break down in their metabolism.
Insulin resistance makes it harder to store sugar (which starch is broken down into too) as fat, because insulin is part of the process of doing that.
Typically if you eat a mixed diet and don't overeat enormously you won't be storing much sugar as fat anyway, as it's easier for the body to use the sugar for immediate energy and to store the fat as fat (energy for the future). But that has no bearing on whether you gain weight or not, that's calories.
Consuming carbs doesn't cause insulin resistance, typically it's a combination of genetics and being overfat (what is a problematic level of overfatness depends on genetics, and I say overfat since it can happen at a normal BMI, although it's a lot more common with obesity, and I think some things like steroids can make it more likely too).13 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
Not significantly, no.3 -
azzeazsaleh5429 wrote: »It is calories in and out but also insulin resistance. Many people who consume a lot of sugars become insulin resistant so their body stores excess sugars as fat because the break down in their metabolism. While others who have a good response to insulin in their metabolism can get away with with processed sugar and foods. Eventually people who get away with the junk food end up having it catch up to them when they get older.
Please stop reading Fung. Correlation does not imply causation34 -
I am a small person (both short and in my ideal BMI range, which is “small” to many people). I moved and took a new job in the same month as I reached my goal weight after losing 100 pounds. Most people I see every day don’t know my history. They think I am either naturally small, or am small because I’m a runner. They sometimes think that because I love food in general and chocolate in particular, I can eat “junk” because I’m either an athlete or just have a fast metabolism.
Those people don’t know that I spent most of my life up to this point being obese. They don’t know that my sweets, like everything else I eat, are carefully planned to fit into my maintenance calories. They don’t even know I track all my food, since I have no reason to tell everyone about it. They’re usually shocked when they hear about my weight loss.
You don’t know everything about another person’s history or what they do when you’re not around.25 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
I have severe hypothyroidism, correctly treated (not over-treated) and lost weight just like anyone else . . . except that I burn noticeably more calories daily than MFP predicts, even when I give it accurate inputs.
That has nothing to do with hypothyroidism, but if treated hypothyroidism were weight loss doom, it wouldn't be very likely to happen.
To the OP: If I burn more calories than the average person, by your thinking I should be naturally thin, right? Nah. I spent decades being obese, despite working out 6 days most weeks, and even competing as a masters athlete while obese for over a decade. A few hundred extra daily calories is easy to eat . . . and even out-eat. Trust me. "Naturally thin" people, by and large, just move more and eat less, in some combination.7 -
I got a part time job at McDonald's when I was 16. I used to eat at least 3 McDonald's a week and I lost a lot of weight. It didn't matter that I was eating a lot of junk. I couldn't drive so walked everywhere, I did hockey and judo, and I did at least 16 hours a week on my feet at work plus school which I walked to and from. It really was just calorie in Vs calories out.
Even now it looks like I eat a lot but in reality I eat a lot of low calorie stuff all day long and leave about 1000 calories for dinner and pudding. People at work don't understand how I don't stop eating all day when they see me eating another 80kcal snack and my family/friends don't understand how I can eat such big meals at home and maintain a normal BMI.10 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
I read a PhD thesis on that topic quite a while ago, and the consensus was that the 'metabolism' doesn't repair itself and those max 5% reduction remain. However, 5% is not a lot, and you can't lose even more if your condition worsens. Plus, if you're treated properly you have more energy, you are more likely to move around, to fidget (fidgetting gets reduced when you feel low on energy, and even that burns some calories), feel less hungry, are more likely to work out, etc...1 -
collectingblues wrote: »If someone only saw how I ate on the weekends in a deficit they would assume it's up to genetics or high metabolism. I will eat pancakes, waffles, three bowls of pasta, pizza, dessert, a fair share of wine.. sometimes wings and ribs.
While I do have a higher than average calorie goal (I am always moving) I don't eat how I do on the weekend during the day when no one is around. Snack is usually a protein shake, lunch is a chicken salad etc.
Yup. Some of my colleagues think I eat all of the time -- I've gotten some work teasing about my snacks.
What they *don't* see is that my eating habits are like those of a toddler: frequent small amounts of food. They may see me grabbing a mini candy bar at work, or a snack-sized bag of Fritos, but they *don't* see the fact that I've got a whopping 200 calories at breakfast, a small dinner, and that I'm working out 7 days a week.
Me too. I bring breakfast and lunch to work, but eat them in small increments throughout the day. People walk into my office and often marvel that I'm eating again. They don't know how I can eat so much and not get fat. Well, I'm eating my maintenance of 1700 cals. I also take a walk on my lunch break every day (by myself), take the stairs rather than the elevator (never see anyone else on the stairs), and am constantly up and down and walking around rather than doing everything by phone/email.
Heck, most of us were wrong about what we ourselves were eating before we started logging, it's easy to get the wrong impression of how someone else eats and burns calories!
And I eat a pretty even mix of stereotypically "healthy" whole foods and convenience foods like pizza, treats, fast food, etc. Lost weight as expected based on my calories and maintaining for a couple of years doing the same.
Oh yes! I trained my colleagues to think that I'm eating all the time! I'm just in the kitchen with a tiny cookie and enjoy it so that people see it. Eat a wafer bar at my desk every day, share recipes etc... one person already wonders how I manage to be so thin 3 -
Running2Fit wrote: »My husband is one of those people who can seemingly eat whatever he wants and not gain weight. But he’s on his feet all day at work, he’s a fidgeter - he’s always moving, he tends to forget to eat at work so comes home and hasn’t eaten all day, he stops eating when he’s full, he doesn’t eat out of boredom. And his weight does shift - it’s just not noticeable on his frame. He gained 10 lbs over the holidays and he just distributes his weight very evenly so he didn’t even go up a pant size. And of course when he goes back to his normal routine he loses it.
Yes, people who have Thanksgiving dinner with my skinny mom marvel about her "fast metabolism." What they don't see is that she is very active and frequently skips meals, so when she does eat, it is a big meal, for which she has plenty of calories for due to her activity level.4 -
My husband is like this. Probably looks like he eats like a pig. BUT, sometimes he also doesn’t eat almost anything. So depends on if you were with him all day every day to truly get an accurate picture.
Also, the guy doesn’t sit still. Literally. Not even when he’s sleeping. 😒4 -
my husband burns every single calorie he eats. between a faster metabolism and very physical job, he burns all of it off.
everyone is different, but yes, in the end it IS all about CICO2 -
My dd weighed 86 lbs and ate whatever. I would have sworn she was eating a ton too. When she tracked her actual intake it was pretty obvious she needed to increase her calories to gain weight for her age and activity level. She increased calories and gained about 20 lbs over 6 months.
Your roommate would gain weight if he ate too many calories for him. He just happens to eat enough to maintain his weight. He probably has high days and low days.4 -
Allegedly all other things being equal (age, sex, no health conditions), our metabolisms don't actually vary hugely. What does vary a lot is appetite and activity level. People who stay slim without any effort don't have super-fast metabolisms, they just self regulate their food intake automatically, and are often fidgeters or very active.7
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How do some people stay skinny?
Is it really genetics or a metabolism? ...
...I get the calories in vs out but how is it someone can eat junk/ pizza take out soda chips candy daily and still be a string bean
Honestly, after researching the topic, I find it very hard to believe that weight loss is as simple as CICO for everyone. In large part because it's rare that the body is EVER that simple, especially for ALL people. Heck, we don't even have the same responses to freezing weather, or healing, or breathing - I can't imagine weight gain and loss is somehow more simplistic than everything else, you know?
And there are also studies here and there that indicate the potential for things we don't know about yet. For example, eating a pint of ice cream all at once, vs. over a course of the day, in small amounts, may cause more fat gain due to how the liver deals with excess sugars in the blood 'at one time.' Basically, having higher blood sugar levels than the body can deal with easily, all at once, can be more problematic to our weight than the same amount of sugars but in doses the body can process more easily.
An Israel based study of blood glucose levels found that people who eat the exact same foods, in the exact same amounts (even the exact same size), can have wildly different responses in terms of how much their blood glucose levels went up. And not just person A's blood glucose went up X amount, and person B's glucose went up a little less. They actually had some people's glucose levels go DOWN when they ate the same foods that made glucose levels spike in other people. The researcher's conclusions was that we know a lot less about digestion, etc... than we think we do, and our bodies might react a lot more individually than we think they do.
Studies on the renin-angiotensin system and angiotensin converting enzymes in the body have shown that it has an impact on one's rate of resting energy metabolism, which is obviously going to impact weight gain and loss. Drugs that impact this system can cause changes in weight without any change in calorie intake or exercise levels - it's all metabolism. And it's not a small change - in mice, if they are low in the enzyme, they had 50-60% less body fat than mice who had more of the enzyme.
Or in other words, metabolism may have a larger role than some would speculate. Or want to think about, because let's face it, it's nicer to think that we are a good shape because of things WE did. It's less nice if there was such a thing as, I dunno, 'metabolism privilege.' ^_^ Where, in the game of losing weight, some people are losing weight at a lower difficulty setting than everyone else.
It's also not fun to think, if that were the case, that some of us are stuck playing the game at the highest difficulty setting, whether we wanted to sign up for that or not.
I suspect eventually we'll find various mechanisms and processes in the body impact CICO and tweak it here and there (from fidgeting added calorie usage to bodily processes). Still, we don't KNOW any of those things right now. We don't really have an easy way to measure metabolism as a regular layperson, so CICO is a good general guideline for most of us, I imagine.
And if we see someone who is super, super skinny but seems to eat whatever they want, maybe we can imagine that their weight loss game is at an easier setting, and then ignore it and go on to win our own game. :-)51 -
@shaumom
The problem with looking for something more complicated is that you miss the part that is simple. The human body runs on energy and that energy comes from food or energy reserves in the body. No matter what the slight variations that exist between people the bulk of the equation will always be about energy.
If you do not suffer from an insulin issue and you eat nothing but sugar while in an energy deficit your body will burn all the sugar and then look to reserves. If your body did something stupid like convert some of the sugar to fat it would still need to pull from energy reserves to make up the difference so it would still result in weight loss.
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It might be easier for some to accept if the formula is CI-->Stuff Happens-->CO. Those differences in metabolism, insulin resistance, whatever are in the "Stuff Happens" area - it doesn't change the input and output section for an individual. I think of it this way - if you need two sheets of plywood for a craft project then you MUST have two sheets. You can't build the project with one sheet. If you buy three sheets you'll end up storing one of the sheets of plywood in the barn. Your body is the same. If your body needs 2,000 Calories for maintenance and you only supply 1,500 then you either die or your body has to use the other 500 calories from storage. If you eat 2,500 Calories your body will store the extra 500 Calories in the "barn" - we call it fat.18
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The human body is wonderful in its complexity so it is easy to look for ways CICO isn't true.
Physics is wonderful in its simplicity so when all the arguments are done CICO must be true.20 -
azzeazsaleh5429 wrote: »It is calories in and out but also insulin resistance. Many people who consume a lot of sugars become insulin resistant so their body stores excess sugars as fat because the break down in their metabolism. While others who have a good response to insulin in their metabolism can get away with with processed sugar and foods. Eventually people who get away with the junk food end up having it catch up to them when they get older.
Let me guess, you watched a Netflix documentary or listened to Dr. Oz or Dr. Jason Fung?27 -
Honestly, after researching the topic, I find it very hard to believe that weight loss is as simple as CICO for everyone. In large part because it's rare that the body is EVER that simple, especially for ALL people. Heck, we don't even have the same responses to freezing weather, or healing, or breathing - I can't imagine weight gain and loss is somehow more simplistic than everything else, you know?
Whatever all the complexities you are getting into do, they are ALL accounted for because the law of energy conservation is universal. Whatever happens with all the stuff you mention is covered in the CO part of the balance. Whatever your metabolism is, it represents the rate at which you burn energy. Your rates change for lots of reasons, but the law of energy conservation does not change. Ever.
Since CI measures energy input and CO measures energy expended, the difference between the two is the amount stored - again this can positive (stored in the form of fat or excess glycogen), equal (not stored or taken from stores), or negative (taken from stores, i.e. fat, lean tissue). The body is admittedly complex, but not so complex as to disobey a fundamental law of nature. Things like "metabolism advantage" are not things. Metabolism is accounted for in Calories Out. Do some people have genetic advantages? Sure. Accounted for. Do some people have genetic disadvantages? Sure. Accounted for. Most of the time when people think their CO is not the issue, they don't really know what their CO is. And the only we can find out day to day is by tracking until we figure out what our CO rate is generally.
This stuff that you bring up is majoring in the minors. The only way to lose fat is to burn more energy than you supply. How you do that is with a deficit. If you want to disprove that, try eating in a surplus while controlling your insulin levels or processed stuff or whatever method you choose. See how that works out. Study after study after study prove that it's the deficit, not the method, that matters. The concept is astonishingly simple. Figuring out your own Calories Out? Not as simple. But just because that varies for lots of reasons does not and cannot mean the CICO (as an energy balance) doesn't work. It has to work.27 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.10 -
How do some people stay skinny?
Is it really genetics or a metabolism? ...
...I get the calories in vs out but how is it someone can eat junk/ pizza take out soda chips candy daily and still be a string bean
Honestly, after researching the topic, I find it very hard to believe that weight loss is as simple as CICO for everyone. In large part because it's rare that the body is EVER that simple, especially for ALL people. Heck, we don't even have the same responses to freezing weather, or healing, or breathing - I can't imagine weight gain and loss is somehow more simplistic than everything else, you know?
And there are also studies here and there that indicate the potential for things we don't know about yet. For example, eating a pint of ice cream all at once, vs. over a course of the day, in small amounts, may cause more fat gain due to how the liver deals with excess sugars in the blood 'at one time.' Basically, having higher blood sugar levels than the body can deal with easily, all at once, can be more problematic to our weight than the same amount of sugars but in doses the body can process more easily.
An Israel based study of blood glucose levels found that people who eat the exact same foods, in the exact same amounts (even the exact same size), can have wildly different responses in terms of how much their blood glucose levels went up. And not just person A's blood glucose went up X amount, and person B's glucose went up a little less. They actually had some people's glucose levels go DOWN when they ate the same foods that made glucose levels spike in other people. The researcher's conclusions was that we know a lot less about digestion, etc... than we think we do, and our bodies might react a lot more individually than we think they do.
Studies on the renin-angiotensin system and angiotensin converting enzymes in the body have shown that it has an impact on one's rate of resting energy metabolism, which is obviously going to impact weight gain and loss. Drugs that impact this system can cause changes in weight without any change in calorie intake or exercise levels - it's all metabolism. And it's not a small change - in mice, if they are low in the enzyme, they had 50-60% less body fat than mice who had more of the enzyme.
Or in other words, metabolism may have a larger role than some would speculate. Or want to think about, because let's face it, it's nicer to think that we are a good shape because of things WE did. It's less nice if there was such a thing as, I dunno, 'metabolism privilege.' ^_^ Where, in the game of losing weight, some people are losing weight at a lower difficulty setting than everyone else.
It's also not fun to think, if that were the case, that some of us are stuck playing the game at the highest difficulty setting, whether we wanted to sign up for that or not.
I suspect eventually we'll find various mechanisms and processes in the body impact CICO and tweak it here and there (from fidgeting added calorie usage to bodily processes). Still, we don't KNOW any of those things right now. We don't really have an easy way to measure metabolism as a regular layperson, so CICO is a good general guideline for most of us, I imagine.
And if we see someone who is super, super skinny but seems to eat whatever they want, maybe we can imagine that their weight loss game is at an easier setting, and then ignore it and go on to win our own game. :-)
This mentality provides a path with no solutions...and a lifetime of misery and envy.
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briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.
I think some folks don't realize or selectively forget that we're not all just a bunch of internet ninnies yelling into the void here (I mean I am, but...). Some of the folks who regularly hang out here are actually professionals in related fields, with access to nifty stuff like data, education, and experience.
I used to eagerly read all the clickbait articles about metabolism, I'd actually keep lists of do's and don'ts. It's here that I learned that metabolism is a well-studied and measured thing, and not something I can do much about anyway, other than getting up off my heinie and increasing my NEAT.33 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.
I think some folks don't realize or selectively forget that we're not all just a bunch of internet ninnies yelling into the void here (I mean I am, but...). Some of us are actually professionals in related fields, with access to nifty stuff like data, education, and experience.
I used to eagerly read all the clickbait articles about metabolism, I'd actually keep lists of do's and don'ts. It's here that I learned that metabolism is a well-studied and measured thing, and not something I can do much about anyway, other than getting up off my heinie and increasing my NEAT.
I have now placed a placard outside my office with my new self bestowed title -
Internet Ninny26 -
briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.
I have hashimotos. I lost just under 20lb when I first started responding to treatment without doing anything else. I know this was water weight, at least most if not all of it. I was close to 200lb at the time and always felt bloated plus my joints were swollen. I also know now, after years of playing with calorie goals and calculators, that my TDEE is about 200 calories a day below what most calculators estimate. It isn't a big difference. That said, when you're on that last 10-15lb with a deficit of 250 cals a day that 200 calorie difference can erase the deficit you thought you had.0 -
Short term. Especially by the day there are quite a few things that can affect your weight. You get constipated for a few days you would see your weight go up. Then you get unconstipated (Is that a word) and suddenly your weight will drop.
However, long term is truly calories in calories out. But do not forget all the effects on calories out.
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briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.
Wow, sitting on so much data sounds like bliss! I envy you
3 -
When I lost most of my weight I had hashimotos, and it was not treated. No problem at all. Actually, for my weight, size, age and gender I get a meagre 1540kcal for daily maintenance. In reality my NEAT is more like 1750-1800. Finally being in Levo did a lot of good for me. But weight loss was not part of it. I was done with that before I started (and felt miserable).1
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briittanyxxoo wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »kimondo666 wrote: »ofc above link is CICO for healthy people, hyperthyroidism, or hypothyroidism affect gains - lose weight situation too.
By about 5%.
And *only* if the thyroid condition isn't treated adequately.
So having treated hypothyroidism wont affect weight loss any different than any one else?
As other have stated, this has <5% impact on metabolism. I have access to over 1.5 M data points from patients and found no BMR/REE readings outside of 5%.
The only "weight gain" associated with thyroid disorders is a temporary water weight increase - similar to TOM.
I have hashimotos. I lost just under 20lb when I first started responding to treatment without doing anything else. I know this was water weight, at least most if not all of it. I was close to 200lb at the time and always felt bloated plus my joints were swollen. I also know now, after years of playing with calorie goals and calculators, that my TDEE is about 200 calories a day below what most calculators estimate. It isn't a big difference. That said, when you're on that last 10-15lb with a deficit of 250 cals a day that 200 calorie difference can erase the deficit you thought you had.
This isn't thyroid related, but a common issue with elite athletes at a low bodyfat %. There is a minimum amount of energy reserves bodies like to hold onto and this is when hormones come into play - but thyroid plays a minor part in this.
What first turned me onto this was the work of Jeffrey Brown, MD - he's an endocrinologist who gained a bit of publicity working with endurance athletes and amending the optimal ranges of the thyroid panel. I ended up managing the pharmacovigilance profile of levothyroxine and confirmed my suspicions after reviewing the objective evidence.
I had a total thyroidectomy in 2000 - gained ~70 lbs over 14 years and thought this was due to sans thyroid. I started with MFP and lost 60 lbs the first year.
The thyroid hormones may have an impact on appetite and a few other minor issues that influence recovery, but has almost no impact on basal metabolic rate.
Edit: Special mention to Jillian Micheals - I read an article that she was diagnosed with Hashimoto's and this is one of the key points where I really started to question conventional wisdom.10 -
I can't speak for others, but before my hypothyroidism was diagnosed, one symptom was dragging fatigue. Unchecked fatigue leads to inactivity; inactivity means reduced calorie expenditure; reduced calorie expenditure can affect weight management.
That's not "metabolism".
I still would've "lost weight just like anyone else does". It might have felt harder subjectively, in somewhat the same way increased exercise feels harder for someone obese or unfit, but objectively the same activity/intake principles apply.16 -
Genetics and build play a big part. Husband is a little overweight but looks skinny. He has long legs and wide shoulders.8
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