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Vegans: Why not vegetarianism?
stricklee11
Posts: 218 Member
in Debate Club
Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
3
Replies
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I’m vegetarian but I can admit that the dairy industry is pretty darn cruel. If vegan for ethical reasons it would be that it is still purporting animal exploitation.21
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It was an ethical choice. My food choices no longer met up with my ethics so I changed them. The dairy and egg industry are horrendous so that's why I didn't go veggie, just went vegan 2 and a half years ago16
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I went vegetarian first, and then cut dairy (went vegan). My skin improved dramatically with no dairy, so I stuck with it.6
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If you’re removing meat from your diet for ethical reasons, it doesn’t make any sense to consume dairy. It is arguably the most cruel exploitation of animals, when cows are routinely artificially impregnated and then have their babies taken away days after birth so their milk can be sold. After a few cycles they are “spent” and sent to slaughter. Same with eggs. Chickens artificially inseminated, baby boy chicks are ground alive as they are a waste product, etc. So to me vegetarian doesn’t make a whole heap of sense 🤷♀️38
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I first cut dairy because of the negative health impacts it was having on me. Then I decided to go completely vegan when I learned more about the industry and how poorly the animals are treated. I just stopped eating meat and eggs immediately and haven’t looked back since. Best choice I’ve ever made. My health is better and I feel better.11
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I chose vegan for all the health benefits, after a trusted expert advisor recommended it. I made the shift over about a month. I was working to lose weight. Going vegan did not cause any immediate weight loss, but I felt so much better that I stuck with it, and figured out how I needed to eat in order to also lose weight.5
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I was motivated when I learned that a vegan diet can reduce chronic pain and inflammation levels, lower cholesterol and blood pressure, and reduce the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, and diabetes. My dad died at 58 (4 years older than I am now) and had a quadruple bypass, diabetes, and colon cancer. As I moved into my 50s, my blood work indicated that I was at risk. I also live with a spinal cord injury which causes chronic pain. The first month was rough as my body adapted to a higher consumption of vegetables, beans, and whole grains but within two months big changes began. I did not get any colds during the winter, my blood sugar levels are steady, I am rarely hungry between meals, I need less pain medication, and I have dropped 12 pounds without feeling hungry. My blood pressure dropped 20 points into the normal range, my cholesterol and triglycerides also dropped, and I feel great. It feels like my body said, "Finally, you are eating the way you were designed to eat." I take supplemental B vitamins, EPA, and track my calcium, iron, and protein to avoid any nutritional deficiencies. I actually eat a more varied diet now than I did as an omnivore. Lots of vegetables, whole grains, greens, beans, soy foods, spices, and savory options available. My only regret is that I did not start eating this way earlier in my life.
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Vegan diet will also give you glowing skin. For the first time in my life, absolute strangers walk up to me and say, "You have such beautiful skin. What products do you use to keep it that way?" I suffered from acne from age 11 to 52, so this was a nice surprise of a vegan diet. I tell them my secret is sunscreen and vegan diet.
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I would disagree with the poster above that vegetarianism for ethical reasons doesn't make much sense. I think every little thing we can do as individuals is AMAZING and a step in the right direction. Imagine if everyone did just one thing instead of such a small population of us doing it all and not making a dent. I say do what you can and push yourself - learn your willpower. I have been vegetarian for 27 years and about 4 of them Vegan. 2 years ago my son (now 11) went vegan and so I am also vegan 2 weeks out of the month. I feel that is still better than consuming as much as I was before. And before I started dieting 3 months ago I ate a more normal amount those two weeks but now that I am counting calories I just cut out a lot of the dairy anyways because of the calories as well.
If it's too hard at least still do something if you can. Trust me it adds up! And it's still a marked improvement on your health than if you were doing nothing at all!
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Assuming a vegan eats that way for ethical reasons, it makes sense to not consume other animal products because of how the animals are typically treated.4
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stricklee11 wrote: »Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stricklee11 wrote: »Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
I agree with this.
I eat whole food plant based, when people ask me about what I eat because of the weight loss and I say whole food plant based, the response is “so your a vegan”.
My answer is no, as vegan is an ethical stance, with much more than a way of eating involved, and while I agree that factory farming is deplorable, I personally don’t have any issues with people eating meat, or dairy. I did it specifically for health.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stricklee11 wrote: »Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
There have definitely been times when self-defined vegans defined "vegan" as not eating animal products and divorced that the idea that they also wouldn't buy things made of animal products (leather and what not). It wasn't especially long ago and I suspect there are multiple people who self identify that way. That's probably especially the case because the word vegetarian is typically used as shorthand for ovo-lacto vegetarian.
I suspect there are also plenty of people who eat vegan for reasons other than ethics, especially if we're not including religion an ethical reason (though I can see why one would include that). Of course there are also people who call themselves vegan who will wear wool but won't wear or buy leather, especially if they have a really good idea about the production both of wool generally and of the specific wool that they're wearing (ie they know how the animal(s) whose wool was shorn is being raised).4 -
Also dear god I need to proof read everything I post here. I try to remember to do so because when I don't it's just a joke. Somehow MFP breaks my ability to type in English in ways that no other website does (including ones I'm significantly more active on).4
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I’m a vegetarian due to food allergies. I’m allergic to most animal products, including honey, beeswax, fish. I can tolerate eggs as long as they’re in something (like cake, etc). I am thinking of going all vegan though. I’ve always loved animals to the point of where I felt uncomfortable eating say, a hamburger. So I don’t mind not being able to eat meat. It’s just my allergies are so severe that the smell of bacon cooking in the microwave makes me horribly sick.0
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Agree that Vegan is more of an ethical choice vs WFPB being dietary. Even in the vegan community there are some grey areas and controversial foods/subjects. Things like Palm Oil (which is in tons of things you wouldn't even think of like soap and toothpaste) and figs are not considered vegan by some due to the harm done to certain species by their growth/harvest. Some vegans will not eat at any restaurant that is not 100% vegan. I think the majority of vegans go with the ‘as far as practicable' approach. There are fringes to almost every belief anymore.5
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Hey guys! Peaked my interest here, as I'm one of very very few vegans in my area (that I am aware of, at least). I had been vegetarian since 2007, and just made the shift a few months ago into veganism. It came down to the fact that I couldn't separate the dairy industry from animal agriculture as a whole (I had tried convincing myself otherwise for years..), and the overwhelming studies being done about the environmental impact of consuming animal products just made me sick. We try very hard to reduce our family's waste, by recycling everything that we possibly can, donating items no longer used (as opposed to throwing things away), composting, growing our own vegetables and herbs, etc. My step children and husband have followed suit over a year ago, making the choice on their own to live a vegetarian lifestyle as well. So that being said, it became much easier for me to make the decision to go Vegan, and I feel that I'm helping to be a better role model for the children too. My health has improved significantly as well, and I have lost a well needed 10lbs+ just from that change alone. Overall, I think there's so many reasons why people chose to be either a vegetarian or a vegan, and I tip my hat to anyone who makes the conscious effort on either side. Have a wonderful day, you guys! Cheers.3
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livv_taberr wrote: »Cholesterol is dangerous because it clogs the arteries with fatty buildup and can lead to a heart attack or stroke, and that’s not good!
I'm not trying to negate your entire viewpoint here, but this is false information. All recent peer-reviewed research has pretty much unanimously shown that LDL cholesterol is NOT a causative factor in heart disease. Cholesterol is a basic building block that our bodies use to create active compounds, such as Vitamin D and our hormones. If you want to understand why cholesterol has been demonized for so many years, read up on the United States sugar producers lobby.
I'm reeeeaaaally skeptical of your claim that "calcium neutralizes acids" and that the calcium we consume from milk is "all used up" by neutralizing acids. This sounds like woo without some kind of peer-reviewed study backing it up.
(Source: I have taken graduate-level human & animal nutrition classes. Am currently in grad school to become a medical professional and work full-time in biological sciences.)
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I think going vegan for ethical reasons is a great choice. However, it's simply not factually accurate that consuming dairy makes it harder to lose weight (unless for some reason you can't control the calories you consume with dairy), and I think it's unethical to spread untrue things in order to convince people to make the decision you want them to make. Far better to argue the reasons why you think veganism is preferable based on the reasons you made the choice.
And as for almond milk and calcium, it's supplemented, so you might as well take a calcium supplement.9 -
I just switched from being omnivorous to vegan (Oct 2014); I didn't go vegetarian in between.
I switch for health reasons more so than ethics initially, but the meat and dairy industries are horrific and I would never go back. Nor do I support companies which profit from animal cruelty; Burger King (who've just brought out a Vegan burger), yet still profit from killing innocent sentient beings...7 -
ericadcruz32 wrote: »I would disagree with the poster above that vegetarianism for ethical reasons doesn't make much sense. I think every little thing we can do as individuals is AMAZING and a step in the right direction. Imagine if everyone did just one thing instead of such a small population of us doing it all and not making a dent. I say do what you can and push yourself - learn your willpower. I have been vegetarian for 27 years and about 4 of them Vegan. 2 years ago my son (now 11) went vegan and so I am also vegan 2 weeks out of the month. I feel that is still better than consuming as much as I was before. And before I started dieting 3 months ago I ate a more normal amount those two weeks but now that I am counting calories I just cut out a lot of the dairy anyways because of the calories as well.
If it's too hard at least still do something if you can. Trust me it adds up! And it's still a marked improvement on your health than if you were doing nothing at all!
It's great that you've seen benefits of eating a plant based diet, but I'm coming off of a mostly whole foods, plant based diet that was very 'healthy' and it did nothing special for me. After a couple months I started having increased bloating and struggled to keep my weight in check. After a few months I just got burned out and am now trying something different, that's pretty much the opposite-eliminating most grains, beans etc. and adding meat, eggs and full fat dairy back in. So far I feel really good-bloating is completely gone, I've lost a few pounds etc.
There's just no one way of eating that's going to be a perfect fit for everyone, in terms of heath.10 -
Dairies & eggs are probably the biggest difference between vegetarianism and vegans. I still consume some but it was greatly reduced. In my case this was to lower my total cholesterol as much as I can. No more milk at home, only almond milk for my smoothies and recipes. I buy only egg whites, again for recipes, and occasionally some Feta. For the lunches at work, most of the cheese has been replaced by tofu and meat has been replaced by hummus. I still eat some 'high quality' meat 1-2x /week. I have done this for 4 years. I think it paid off; based on my lab results earlier this year, my doctor told me that I was among the lowest risk of coronary disease of only 4%.0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
I think it can be both a nutritional choice and an ethical one with varying degrees of what the person knows or is willing to consider. A friend of mine chooses to eat only plant-based foods, but still owns a leather jacket. He feels physically better eating vegan, but it doesn't disturb him that his jacket is made from animal skin.
In fact, I'd argue it is pretty challenging to be 100% vegan in the sense that you don't buy anything with animal products in it, or that has been tested on animals, or that has an impact on animals. The global supply chain is so huge that you need to spend a lot of time investigating every product you buy.
Examples of foods you might think are vegan but aren't always: beer, wine, and some fruit juices.
Examples of other things you might buy that are not vegan: clothes, shoes, linens/bedding, furniture, the upholstery in your car, medications, vitamins/supplements, cosmetics including obvious ones like red lipstick but also soaps, perfumes, sunscreens, etc.
Some vegans won't watch movies that have animals in them, won't visit the circus or zoo, and won't have pets at home. There's a whole range of veganism.4 -
I think there's also this assumption that "all vegans do this and if they don't then they're not vegan" which is simply not the truth. There's no one definition for the word or lable "vegan" and language changes, including the meanings of words and phrases. I know numerous people who will use animal products that they've bought used and/or come from farms that they trust in regards to animal husbandry.
I couldn't agree with you enough on this one. Between the fact that farming produce has an impact on animals, the production of clothes has an impact on animals (it's not exactly the cleanest of industries in terms of pollution and that affects wildlife), the clear cutting of forests which has a major effect on animals, the trialing drugs and medical procedures that are vital to one's health... I could go on but I'll stop there.Sugaraddict4321 wrote:In fact, I'd argue it is pretty challenging to be 100% vegan in the sense that you don't buy anything with animal products in it, or that has been tested on animals, or that has an impact on animals. The global supply chain is so huge that you need to spend a lot of time investigating every product you buy.
I get that it's a give and take situation. No one can do all the things to try and save the earth and its inhabitants. That said, my buying wool products (primarily in the form of socks, raw fleece, and yarn) is likely not more negatively impactful than buying cotton (organic or conventional).4 -
I went Vegan for ethical reasons after having been Vegetarian for years and doing my research on the dairy and egg industry. It was a no-brainer for me.
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caraghnidurnin wrote: »If you’re removing meat from your diet for ethical reasons, it doesn’t make any sense to consume dairy. It is arguably the most cruel exploitation of animals, when cows are routinely artificially impregnated and then have their babies taken away days after birth so their milk can be sold. After a few cycles they are “spent” and sent to slaughter. Same with eggs. Chickens artificially inseminated, baby boy chicks are ground alive as they are a waste product, etc. So to me vegetarian doesn’t make a whole heap of sense 🤷♀️
Just a few points, Chickens are not artificially inseminated, hens lay eggs all on their own, typically 1 a day through the year, less through the Winter. They do not need a Rooster around to lay eggs, you only need a Rooster if you want live chicks, not if you want eggs.
The main cruelty thing with the chickens is that most of them are kept in "houses" and not allowed to free range.
Cows.. yes, the calves are taken away within a day of birth, and most of them, if they are bulls, are sold to make Veil. The Heifers will spend their time in little hutch's till they are old enough to join the herd and be bred the 1st time to start giving milk, they last more then a few cycles, how long they last depends on how many times a day they are milked, if they are milked 3 times a day, they get used up quicker and then yes go for slaughter.
I grew up on a farm, it's just life.
This is not to sway anyone either way, just a couple if facts, I don't eat much meat, no ethical reason, I'm just not into cooking.
I'd love to become a Vegan, only because I think if done correctly, it's the most healthy, but I don't have the gumption to learn and I have horribly fussy taste buds. And I really like my eggs and cheese....9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »stricklee11 wrote: »Why did you choose to be vegan over being a vegetarian? Was it a gradual shift?
Veganism is an ethical choice that goes well beyond diet. Vegans do not consume or use animal products or products that are tested on animals, etc....no leather or wool...certain cosmetics are off limits, etc.
I agree with this.
I eat whole food plant based, when people ask me about what I eat because of the weight loss and I say whole food plant based, the response is “so your a vegan”.
My answer is no, as vegan is an ethical stance, with much more than a way of eating involved, and while I agree that factory farming is deplorable, I personally don’t have any issues with people eating meat, or dairy. I did it specifically for health.
This, I like the idea of being vegan, but it's only the eating part of vegan.....0 -
I skipped Vegetarian and went fully Vegan for health reasons.
I did the Paddison Programne for Rheumatoid Arthritis and cured myself. Prior to that I was a broken deformed woman, living on crutches permanently. I remember the last day I saw my Rheumatologist 5 years ago. He was looking at my latest blood tests results on a computer screen. He turned to me and announced that, after my first 2 years as a vegan, that I had cured myself.
But I really, really missed eggs!
I moved to New Zealand 3 years after that. Now I have my own healthy, happy chickens who free range all over my forresty 1/2 acre property. They lay some super large eggs, the fat healthy girls they are. Ms Cackle is my noisiest layer. Every morning, 7am on the dot, she cackles in her favourite laying spot under my bedroom window, as she lays my breakfast. I don't have a Rooster, just Rhode Island Red girls, so the neighbours don't get annoyed.
I know many vegans don't eat honey now days either, but we do. We keep 3 hives of very healthy NZ bees, with plenty of wild Meadows to keep them going. But we are lucky here, there is no Foulbrood disease in NZ (yet) so home beekeeping is easier. The honey is amazing, though we do it for the environment and pleasure.
Growing my own food in the garden is also wonderful 9 -
I was a pescatarian who is transitioning to WFPB. Although I cannot vouch for the cheese (~4oz/wk) I eat, I do know the farmers of my eggs(~1/wk) and milk (~1/2c/wk).
For animal rights and environmental footprint reasons I gave up leather goods and mammal flesh abt a year ago. Prior to that I was an omnivore in the Pollan & Kingfisher mode of plants primarily for decades.
I will continue to weigh sustainability against vegan substitutes for traditional omnivore foods. For example, I am making oat milk for my morning coffee rather then almond milk, on account of monocropping of almond trees. It's bad for bees (trucked-in) and bad for water resources.
I see myself continuing to wear wool and eating honey. I know where my honey comes from. Perhaps my next challenge is know where my yarn comes from too.2 -
If you're making the clothes from the yarn you're buying, it's actually not all that difficult. It's even easier if you're spinning the wool. PM if you want more suggestions on how to figure that sort of thing out.I was a pescatarian who is transitioning to WFPB. Although I cannot vouch for the cheese (~4oz/wk) I eat, I do know the farmers of my eggs(~1/wk) and milk (~1/2c/wk).
For animal rights and environmental footprint reasons I gave up leather goods and mammal flesh abt a year ago. Prior to that I was an omnivore in the Pollan & Kingfisher mode of plants primarily for decades.
I will continue to weigh sustainability against vegan substitutes for traditional omnivore foods. For example, I am making oat milk for my morning coffee rather then almond milk, on account of monocropping of almond trees. It's bad for bees (trucked-in) and bad for water resources.
I see myself continuing to wear wool and eating honey. I know where my honey comes from. Perhaps my next challenge is know where my yarn comes from too.1
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