Crossfit, dont knock it, till you try it.
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That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
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I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.2 -
I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
Fair though if "form" by itself without relation to load is part of "incorrectly" I would be on the side of what current literature suggests.
Meaning form might improve efficiency but certainly doesn't equate higher injury risk by itself.
0 -
I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
Fair though if "form" by itself without relation to load is part of "incorrectly" I would be on the side of what current literature suggests.
Meaning form might improve efficiency but certainly doesn't equate higher injury risk by itself.
For what it's worth, I think we're more or less agreeing. Another way I could state what I said earlier today is, "Crossfit doesn't appear to promote healthy practices on the rowing machine by way of showcasing people who appear to be well respected erging in ways that promote injury. Given that, it's safe to assume that similar things happen with regards to lifting."
*Given that I, and apparently others, have read a number of accounts of Crossfit gyms pushing beginners in ways that lead to injury, I would imagine that I'm not too far from the mark.
*And yes, I've read accounts of beginners being well served by crossfit gyms as well. I also personally have at least one friend who adores crossfit.0 -
I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
Fair though if "form" by itself without relation to load is part of "incorrectly" I would be on the side of what current literature suggests.
Meaning form might improve efficiency but certainly doesn't equate higher injury risk by itself.
For what it's worth, I think we're more or less agreeing. Another way I could state what I said earlier today is, "Crossfit doesn't appear to promote healthy practices on the rowing machine by way of showcasing people who appear to be well respected erging in ways that promote injury. Given that, it's safe to assume that similar things happen with regards to lifting."
*Given that I, and apparently others, have read a number of accounts of Crossfit gyms pushing beginners in ways that lead to injury, I would imagine that I'm not too far from the mark.
*And yes, I've read accounts of beginners being well served by crossfit gyms as well. I also personally have at least one friend who adores crossfit.
I agree.0 -
I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
Fair though if "form" by itself without relation to load is part of "incorrectly" I would be on the side of what current literature suggests.
Meaning form might improve efficiency but certainly doesn't equate higher injury risk by itself.
For what it's worth, I think we're more or less agreeing. Another way I could state what I said earlier today is, "Crossfit doesn't appear to promote healthy practices on the rowing machine by way of showcasing people who appear to be well respected erging in ways that promote injury. Given that, it's safe to assume that similar things happen with regards to lifting."
*Given that I, and apparently others, have read a number of accounts of Crossfit gyms pushing beginners in ways that lead to injury, I would imagine that I'm not too far from the mark.
*And yes, I've read accounts of beginners being well served by crossfit gyms as well. I also personally have at least one friend who adores crossfit.
Can we PLEASE stop with the 'Crossfit will lead to injuries' myth?
It's simply not true.
I have been to many Crossfit gyms. Never once have I see instructors pushing a person beyond their capabilities. On the contrary, beginners are urged to scale their workouts to their level of strength/fitness, as all Crossfit athletes are urged to do. (Men don't lift the same as women, etc.)
Nor have I ever read any accounts of injuries inflicted because a beginner was pushed to do something they were not ready to do.
Do injuries occur? Of course. But, likewise, just about every runner who starts to run regularly will get shin splints at some point. I play tennis. I know guys who have a rotator cuff injury and people who have tennis elbow. It doesn't mean tennis is a needlessly dangerous point.
If all you do is lay on a bench and push a barbell one and a half feet, then I suppose Crossfit seems relatively hazardous. But the rate of injury in Crossfit is not high relative to other sports.
Here's another article on the injury rate from a reputable, scientific journal.
https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/jsr.2016-0040
For those who don't care to read: It says that the rate of injury in Crossfit is comparable to, or better than, gymnastics, Olympic weightlifting, military conditioning, track and field, running and rugby. Injuries are less frequent than in high school football, soccer and ice hockey.
So, please, stop perpetuating an untruth.
The title of this thread is: 'Don't knock it until you have tried it.' Okay? So, if it is not for you, and you are determined not to give it a fair shake, why bother even coming in here?
I don't see Crossfitters going into the powerlifting threads and knocking it. I don't see runners going into the bicycling threads and knocking it.
So, please, show the same kind of maturity and consideration.
I happen to think Crossfit it really fun because it is something different every time.
And, when I walk into a Crossfit gym I see a lot of people who appear to be getting some serious results.6 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »
I would argue that inappropriate load management would fall in the "incorrectly" box.That is to say, it's not that weightlifting itself is bad, it's that when you do things incorrectly and quickly, injuries happen.
Current literature is suggesting this not to be true. Load management is considered to be the cause of injuries.
Meaning you can do a clean with bad form(which there is no clear definition that works for every individual bte) with a broom stick 3 sets of triples with one min rest in between sets and the injury risk is next to nil even with the most atrocious form because the load was managed within capabilities of most healthy individuals.
But take a weight that is considered to be 92% of a e1RM and try to clean it four times. Yep injury risk is high now even with the best form.
Or take a weight that you can triple with three left in the tank. Lets say 83% of a e1rm and do 8 sets of it with only one min rest in between sets. This is poor load management "good or bad form".
Its the buildup of stress at a inappropriate weight that is now consideref to cause injury.
The body can deal with a lot of things if the load is appropriate.
Fair though if "form" by itself without relation to load is part of "incorrectly" I would be on the side of what current literature suggests.
Meaning form might improve efficiency but certainly doesn't equate higher injury risk by itself.
For what it's worth, I think we're more or less agreeing. Another way I could state what I said earlier today is, "Crossfit doesn't appear to promote healthy practices on the rowing machine by way of showcasing people who appear to be well respected erging in ways that promote injury. Given that, it's safe to assume that similar things happen with regards to lifting."
*Given that I, and apparently others, have read a number of accounts of Crossfit gyms pushing beginners in ways that lead to injury, I would imagine that I'm not too far from the mark.
*And yes, I've read accounts of beginners being well served by crossfit gyms as well. I also personally have at least one friend who adores crossfit.
Can we PLEASE stop with the 'Crossfit will lead to injuries' myth?
It's simply not true.
I have been to many Crossfit gyms. Never once have I see instructors pushing a person beyond their capabilities. On the contrary, beginners are urged to scale their workouts to their level of strength/fitness, as all Crossfit athletes are urged to do. (Men don't lift the same as women, etc.)
Nor have I ever read any accounts of injuries inflicted because a beginner was pushed to do something they were not ready to do.
Do injuries occur? Of course. But, likewise, just about every runner who starts to run regularly will get shin splints at some point. I play tennis. I know guys who have a rotator cuff injury and people who have tennis elbow. It doesn't mean tennis is a needlessly dangerous point.
If all you do is lay on a bench and push a barbell one and a half feet, then I suppose Crossfit seems relatively hazardous. But the rate of injury in Crossfit is not high relative to other sports.
Here's another article on the injury rate from a reputable, scientific journal.
https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/jsr.2016-0040
For those who don't care to read: It says that the rate of injury in Crossfit is comparable to, or better than, gymnastics, Olympic weightlifting, military conditioning, track and field, running and rugby. Injuries are less frequent than in high school football, soccer and ice hockey.
So, please, stop perpetuating an untruth.
The title of this thread is: 'Don't knock it until you have tried it.' Okay? So, if it is not for you, and you are determined not to give it a fair shake, why bother even coming in here?
I don't see Crossfitters going into the powerlifting threads and knocking it. I don't see runners going into the bicycling threads and knocking it.
So, please, show the same kind of maturity and consideration.
I happen to think Crossfit it really fun because it is something different every time.
And, when I walk into a Crossfit gym I see a lot of people who appear to be getting some serious results.
Wait, so you're saying that I'm not being mature because I pointed to the ill form on a piece of equipment that I'm very familiar with shown on the organization's many youtube videos and made an educated guess (key word "guess") that this level misuse (for lack of a better word) could be transferred to other activities done in Crossfit? I'm pretty sure I didn't even say "they definitely don't use best practices" or something like that. There was always (or should have always) been some qualification that I was making an assumption.
Moving on, what's interesting is that the link that you provided, as well as three plus articles (academic) that I skimmed show that shoulder injuries a very common injury in crossfit. Something that was discussed earlier in this thread (though not by me). From the Klimek et. al. article (which you linked to):Both Hak et al and Weisenthal et al reported a high incidence of shoulder injuries (31.8% and 25%, respectively) from CrossFit training. The Olympic-style lifts that are inherent to CrossFit require the shoulders to move beyond their usual physiologic range of motion (eg, kipping pull-up). Another potential contributor to CrossFit-related injuries in general and shoulder injuries in particular is muscular fatigue due to high number of repetitions performed during CrossFit sessions. Muscular fatigue may have particularly deleterious effects on the glenohumeral joint, as congruency of this joint is dependent on sustained muscular activation. Muscular fatigue may also contribute to loss of proper exercise technique and resultant injury.
With regards to American football, soccer (rest of the world football), and rugby - I can assure you that I think those are dangerous sports, American football and rugby especially. Hockey as well. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't think those aren't sports where people don't get injured on a regular to somewhat regular basis (and that's not even taking into account concussions). While I'm not especially familiar with gymnastics, given how much training is involved, the moves they do, and the falls, I'm not especially surprised that injuries are common. What would be more interesting to me, with regards to those statistics, is seeing the injury rates on a wider variety of sports (and yes, I looked at the citations, the authors of the article you cited primarily looked at the sports/training that you listed as a measure of comparison.
And because I too have the ability to find journal articles, Mehrab et. al. found that there was an increase in injury from people who were new to crossfit. Something that multiple people, myself included, were worried about.
They go on to say that while the vast majority (84.4% of gyms people in the study attended) had these programs, they still found there to be a higher risk of injuries to beginners.In our study population, the risk of injury was significantly increased in athletes participating in CrossFit for
less than 6 months. This finding is important; we suggest that coaches and athletes focus on correct movement patterns and scale workouts for beginners.
Another relevant quote, that could be viewed as a suggestion to people who do crossfit as well as gyms,
I personally have seen this to be true with regards to rowing and am not about to refute it. It's actually why I took so many days off of rowing this past winter. I had no desire to get injured and I could see the writing on the wall, or rather via watching what a good friend was going through concurrently.When an athlete is new (beginner) at a certain sport and then increases volume and intensity over a short period of time, a higher rate of injury can be expected. This pattern has been observed in rowing and skiing, which are sports in which athletes also start participation at an older age and tend to increase volume and intensity rapidly, for instance, during winter holidays or collegiate rowing
Also note that an issue that multiple studies have shown is that comparing general injury rates between studies about crossfit is not ideal for multiple reasons including differing definitions of what an "injury" is for the purposes of the study.
And finally, in terms of your statement that you don't see people going around dismissing various sports, I can assure you there are plenty of threads where people say that weight training is far superior to cardio (as if there's one cardio activity...). I see it here all the time.5 -
Regarding the Mehrab paper, there is no comparison to other kinds of exercise or sports activity and the definition of injury is pretty vague, which makes it difficult to judge how severe these injuries are. It could be an injury that warranted a physician visit. Or just one that prompted the athlete to adjust their training for a bit.
It's hard to move at all without getting that kind of injury! They say that better than 50 percent of runners get an injury that interrupts their training at some point in a year.
A 30 percent rate of shoulder injuries means that that is the most common type of injury in Crossfit; it doesn't mean it is a lot!
So, if you ask a bunch of Crossfitters, 30 percent say they had at least a sore shoulder at some point in a year. But did a high number need to stop using their shoulder completely for any length of time? Is 30 percent any worse than the rate for other active sports? Was the rate of surgery or medical treatment high?
The Mehrab paper is a survey, with all the unreliability of memory recall and no comparison. That's not reliable or meaningful data.
I mentioned the shoulder injury rate in my first post, because that was reported as the most common site of injury in Crossfit in a previous paper, a paper that made comparisons. That paper said that, yes, Crossfitters injure their shoulders, but it was not at a rate higher than gymnasts or powerlifters or Olympic lifters -- ie, people who use their shoulders.1 -
Murph today!
Run a mile
100 pull-ups
200 push-ups
300 air-squats
Another one mile run
In a weighted vest, if you want
One tough workout. But that feeling of accomplishment when you are done. Worth its weight in gold.0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »Murph today!
Run a mile
100 pull-ups
200 push-ups
300 air-squats
Another one mile run
In a weighted vest, if you want
One tough workout. But that feeling of accomplishment when you are done. Worth its weight in gold.
My pt regularly gets me to do something similar (minus the weighted vest). I'm not a fast runner so we do
Run a mile
100 trx rows
100 squats
100 push ups
Run
(We only get 25min once stretch is included).
I cried first time she made me do it. And she does make me do it all with good form
1 -
Cahgetsfit wrote: »My only issue with it is that every.single.person I know who does it has had shoulder issues, some to the point of having to operate. EVERY SINGLE ONE. 100% rate. Of people I know who do it. Granted, I only know about 6 people who do/have done it, so it's not a very large cross-section of the population, but still.... 6/6 have shoulder damage? And do CrossFit? Bit too much of a coincidence there.
Which brings me to what others have said above - it's not for beginners and also, the competitive aspect of doing particular exercises for time, can result in loss of form, which in turn can lead to injury.
I'm a complete beginner, and it has been just wonderful for me. I'm six months in and am stronger than I've ever been -- and I'm 50.
I see where the shoulder issues could arise if one did not stop when one's shoulder began to hurt. Also, I do not race the clock and compromise my form during the daily workouts. I see others doing that, and imagine that would be a good way to become injured.
Like anything, you have to listen to your body and respond accordingly.3
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