How to Ensure a Successful Lean Bulk
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lukejoycePT wrote: »There is no reason why you can't add muscle without gaining little to no fat. you've just got to be sensible about your calories and macros, it's really about experimenting until you find your sweet spot. Something else to take note of... The fatter you become the less muscle you will build. In other words keep your body fat low and you'll produce more muscle. For gents it's keeping your body fat around 12% and women around 20% if you go over this you'll be better off cutting for a while before trying to eat a bit more.
Bulking is just outdated information and it just really isn't good for you to do it. Remember every time you add a lot of weight it gets harder to lose it. Your body doesn't care about how good you look. It just cares about your survival, if you are going through a period of low calories your brain will start slowing things down and as soon as you increase calories your body will want to hold onto any and all calories you don't use and hold it in the form of fat.
Ah, the partitioning-ratio. My understanding is that it has been questioned because the research suggesting a lower body fat leads to a better p-ratio comes from looking at people who were naturally lean, rather than comparing people who have been dieted down into leanness. The biggest reason to avoid high body fat is it is just that much longer one needs to spend cutting.
Recomping is certainly possible, but most people find it frustrating, particular people at the novice to intermediate level.3 -
The timing of meals is far less important than the calories you get. One prevents you from gaining, the other may make it slightly more optimal.1 -
Wow, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. My .01 (after taxes)
- Increase calories above maintenance, but not so much that you are gaining excess fat. It's not worth the health complications to live half or more of your life obese. Furthermore, it's not necessary. Identify a healthy fat percentage and stay within that.
- Don't take steroids unless you have discussed it with your doctor and it is medically necessary.
- Heavy lifting isn't absolutely necessary. What needs to happen is that the muscle needs to be exercised to failure. It doesn't matter if it's 5 or 15 reps, as long as it's to failure. Focus on form and squeezing the muscle, which, in fact, suggests a slightly higher rep range. This is also less likely to cause injury.
- Don't go too low on eating fat. You need fat for healthy testosterone levels.
- Aim for about 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound of lean mass.
- It wouldn't hurt to get a blood test. Being deficient in certain things like zinc, magnesium and vitamin D, can negatively affect testosterone levels. If you are low, get more of them from your diet if you can, or from supplements. But only if you are low.
- Get enough sleep. Sleep is where a lot of repair and growth happens.
- Train each muscle group about two times per week. Combined with a good diet and sleep, this will keep you in an anabolic state most of the time.
- Be consistent. Consistency over time wins the race.
- Enjoy the process! The more you enjoy what you are doing, the more you are likely to stick with it. It does take time, so settle in for the long haul.
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Wow, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. My .01 (after taxes)
- Increase calories above maintenance, but not so much that you are gaining excess fat. It's not worth the health complications to live half or more of your life obese. Furthermore, it's not necessary. Identify a healthy fat percentage and stay within that.
- Don't take steroids unless you have discussed it with your doctor and it is medically necessary.
- Heavy lifting isn't absolutely necessary. What needs to happen is that the muscle needs to be exercised to failure. It doesn't matter if it's 5 or 15 reps, as long as it's to failure. Focus on form and squeezing the muscle, which, in fact, suggests a slightly higher rep range. This is also less likely to cause injury.
- Don't go too low on eating fat. You need fat for healthy testosterone levels.
- Aim for about 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound of lean mass.
- It wouldn't hurt to get a blood test. Being deficient in certain things like zinc, magnesium and vitamin D, can negatively affect testosterone levels. If you are low, get more of them from your diet if you can, or from supplements. But only if you are low.
- Get enough sleep. Sleep is where a lot of repair and growth happens.
- Train each muscle group about two times per week. Combined with a good diet and sleep, this will keep you in an anabolic state most of the time.
- Be consistent. Consistency over time wins the race.
- Enjoy the process! The more you enjoy what you are doing, the more you are likely to stick with it. It does take time, so settle in for the long haul.
You say there is misinformation and then promote misinformation. Going to failure is something that should be used sparingly due to the ability to recover. And there isn't much evidence suggesting that failure provides additional benefit. And for a large part of your training, an RPE of 7-8 is ideal. And if you do use failure, it should be reserved for a last for moves of your training program.7 -
Wow, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. My .01 (after taxes)
- Increase calories above maintenance, but not so much that you are gaining excess fat. It's not worth the health complications to live half or more of your life obese. Furthermore, it's not necessary. Identify a healthy fat percentage and stay within that.
- Don't take steroids unless you have discussed it with your doctor and it is medically necessary.
- Heavy lifting isn't absolutely necessary. What needs to happen is that the muscle needs to be exercised to failure. It doesn't matter if it's 5 or 15 reps, as long as it's to failure. Focus on form and squeezing the muscle, which, in fact, suggests a slightly higher rep range. This is also less likely to cause injury.
- Don't go too low on eating fat. You need fat for healthy testosterone levels.
- Aim for about 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound of lean mass.
- It wouldn't hurt to get a blood test. Being deficient in certain things like zinc, magnesium and vitamin D, can negatively affect testosterone levels. If you are low, get more of them from your diet if you can, or from supplements. But only if you are low.
- Get enough sleep. Sleep is where a lot of repair and growth happens.
- Train each muscle group about two times per week. Combined with a good diet and sleep, this will keep you in an anabolic state most of the time.
- Be consistent. Consistency over time wins the race.
- Enjoy the process! The more you enjoy what you are doing, the more you are likely to stick with it. It does take time, so settle in for the long haul.
You say there is misinformation and then promote misinformation. Going to failure is something that should be used sparingly due to the ability to recover. And there isn't much evidence suggesting that failure provides additional benefit. And for a large part of your training, an RPE of 7-8 is ideal. And if you do use failure, it should be reserved for a last for moves of your training program.
This^ Mike Israetel describes training to failure increasing recovery exponentially. Not only does it not provide additional benefits but will affect training frequency and overall volume.4 -
To me you, if one can't identify a healthy bodyfat range and stay within that, how does on know they are gaining too much fat?
I use my waist as a proxy for accumulated fat, but of course there are better ways: skinfold calipers, InBody type of scales and hydrostatic weighing are just a few.
What I mean by this is that one should not allow them to become obese during a bulk. There are a lot of negative health outcomes associated with obesity, even if you have more muscle mass than the average individual. It's not good for the ticker! It's also not necessary.
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A good article from Renaissance Periodization on the topic of effective training volume.
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/training-volume-landmarks-muscle-growth/1 -
You say there is misinformation and then promote misinformation. Going to failure is something that should be used sparingly due to the ability to recover. And there isn't much evidence suggesting that failure provides additional benefit. And for a large part of your training, an RPE of 7-8 is ideal. And if you do use failure, it should be reserved for a last for moves of your training program.
Misinformation? I don't think so. Clarification might be needed, perhaps. But something tells me you're not motivated by the desire to flesh out details so as to arrive at a more informed point of view. I hope I am mistaken.
I think it's safe to say, and for me to restate, that, from a longitudinal perspective, the current evidence does not fully support absolute failure in every single instance, every time. Is that better? Some do say this is necessary for maximum protein synthesis and hypertrophy, and some suggest that stopping within a couple of reps might achieve the same result. But to say that 7-8 reps is ideal without any context to put it in is also not correct and reflects an outdated approach. The point, as I'm sure you would concede, is to give the muscle something it is not used to so it is forced to adapt. 7-8 reps at 50 lbs means something different than 7-8 reps at 100lbs for any particular individual. The point is that it has to be tough, so to speak, in order to force the muscle to adapt.
I'm sure we could have a vigorous debate on this one point alone, although I suggest that our time would be better spent giving the original poster more overall, generally well-established advice that does not take him down a rabbit hole. What can you add to the discussion in that vein?
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This^ Mike Israetel describes training to failure increasing recovery exponentially. Not only does it not provide additional benefits but will affect training frequency and overall volume.
Thanks for the tip! I'm looking forward to reading some of his stuff. Are you familiar with the work of Jorn Trommelen? Great stuff.
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You say there is misinformation and then promote misinformation. Going to failure is something that should be used sparingly due to the ability to recover. And there isn't much evidence suggesting that failure provides additional benefit. And for a large part of your training, an RPE of 7-8 is ideal. And if you do use failure, it should be reserved for a last for moves of your training program.
Misinformation? I don't think so. Clarification might be needed, perhaps. But something tells me you're not motivated by the desire to flesh out details so as to arrive at a more informed point of view. I hope I am mistaken.
I think it's safe to say, and for me to restate, that, from a longitudinal perspective, the current evidence does not fully support absolute failure in every single instance, every time. Is that better? Some do say this is necessary for maximum protein synthesis and hypertrophy, and some suggest that stopping within a couple of reps might achieve the same result. But to say that 7-8 reps is ideal without any context to put it in is also not correct and reflects an outdated approach. The point, as I'm sure you would concede, is to give the muscle something it is not used to so it is forced to adapt. 7-8 reps at 50 lbs means something different than 7-8 reps at 100lbs for any particular individual. The point is that it has to be tough, so to speak, in order to force the muscle to adapt.
I'm sure we could have a vigorous debate on this one point alone, although I suggest that our time would be better spent giving the original poster more overall, generally well-established advice that does not take him down a rabbit hole. What can you add to the discussion in that vein?
Your assumptions are wrong. Volume and metabolic stress are the largest components of hypertrophy. You can see maximal hypertrophy and never do a set to failure. Is there an application for it, maybe? But to suggest that one needs to hit failure would be wrong.
There is a difference between one must do something vs there may be an application. That is my point.5 -
There is a difference between one must do something vs there may be an application. That is my point.
Fair point. I look forward to your additional tips/tricks which can help the OP.
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This^ Mike Israetel describes training to failure increasing recovery exponentially. Not only does it not provide additional benefits but will affect training frequency and overall volume.
Thanks for the tip! I'm looking forward to reading some of his stuff. Are you familiar with the work of Jorn Trommelen? Great stuff.
I'm not familiar with him. I will take a look. Thanks0 -
man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.10
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lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...9 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.10 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.
Not everyone has the same goals. I take advice from many fitness professionals and experts who do not have the physique I desire but it is their knowledge, expertise and experience that is important.7 -
Out of curiosity how long do you give it before you give up? It does take a while and if you aren’t taking any yet try creatine you want to give it a solid effort of 6weeks or so building muscle takes time protein and creatine will help. From what your saying it seams you don’t have to much trouble dropping weight. Gain the weight train for 6 weeks take a photo when you start because we see ourself everyday it does make it abit harder to notice small changes. You can turn fat into muscle just it takes a lot longer than you expect. I got to 116kg I’m 88 now in a really short time frame I still look like I’m carrying abit of weight but I assure the muscles have grown 4 months of creatine, protein lifting heavy constantly tricking the body as it will always find the efficient way to do things so you mix up training to keep the gains coming. Look up Gravity Transformation on you tube 👍 all the info you need you’ll fine there just may need to dig to find it0
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lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.
You’re basing someone’s training knowledge solely off of a photo?
There are plenty of massive dudes out there who have no idea how to train properly. Great genetics and drugs will make anyone look great. Doesn’t mean they know how to train.7 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.
You’re basing someone’s training knowledge solely off of a photo?
There are plenty of massive dudes out there who have no idea how to train properly. Great genetics and drugs will make anyone look great. Doesn’t mean they know how to train.
Drugs and genetics alone will not make one look great.
Unless we have significantly different definitions of "great".
I should have mentioned diet as well.
My point is just because someone looks “great” doesn’t mean they know how to train.
Take this study from the New England journal of medicine for example.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101
Those who did no weight training while taking drugs gained almost twice as much muscle as those weight training without drugs during the same period.
Just to emphasize, if you’re on the right kind of drugs you can sit on your couch all day eating pizza and gain more muscle than a natural can who is weightlifting.
So again, those on drugs will see amazing results no matter what workout routine they do. An optimal one or one that’s complete garbage. Which is why when most naturals try doing the same routine as someone on drugs they see almost no results.
Basing someone’s knowledge of training based solely on a photo is quite ignorant.
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HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.
You’re basing someone’s training knowledge solely off of a photo?
There are plenty of massive dudes out there who have no idea how to train properly. Great genetics and drugs will make anyone look great. Doesn’t mean they know how to train.
Actually, I’m not. I basing it on his baiting comment.
One thing I will say tho is that it is much easier to get a low body fat than it is to build muscle. It is even more difficult to build muscle and add little to no body fat.
To lose body fat (providing you have no underlining issues) you just need to simply eat below your maintenance calories.
But to add muscle without gaining fat requires a real understanding of nutrition and how your body will respond to training stimulus.
Everyone is an individual.
On these forums I see blanket statements about training and nutrition. Anyone who sits outside of what is excepted is ridiculed and expected to provide proven studies.
People can not grasp the idea that genetics play a huge part in what people respond to.
The science of nutrition is still in its infancy and yet people see it in black and white.
I once posted that some people can’t lose fat if they consume sugar, even fruit. I was attacked by so many people it was unreal. Even though I have worked with many people with issues related to sugar and hormone imbalances.
I’ve offered information on here several times and have been called a lier.
I have more woo’s than a rollling stones concert.
The issue is that people ask for help but when the advice they get doesn’t fit their programming they become hostile.
Nobody wants to put in the grind.6 -
OP, why don't you spend some money on a decent coach then and work with a professional on this instead of randomly trying to figure it out?
So many people manage to lean bulk with a good coach. And the beauty is, you don't even have to think - you just do what you're told.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »HookGripDeadlifts wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »man the level of bro science in this post is off the hook! So much outdated info.
And the ironic comment of the day belongs to...
Just because you have abs doesn't mean you know how to train. If you did you would have far more muscle mass than in your photo.
You’re basing someone’s training knowledge solely off of a photo?
There are plenty of massive dudes out there who have no idea how to train properly. Great genetics and drugs will make anyone look great. Doesn’t mean they know how to train.
Drugs and genetics alone will not make one look great.
Unless we have significantly different definitions of "great".
I should have mentioned diet as well.
My point is just because someone looks “great” doesn’t mean they know how to train.
Take this study from the New England journal of medicine for example.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101
Those who did no weight training while taking drugs gained almost twice as much muscle as those weight training without drugs during the same period.
Just to emphasize, if you’re on the right kind of drugs you can sit on your couch all day eating pizza and gain more muscle than a natural can who is weightlifting.
So again, those on drugs will see amazing results no matter what workout routine they do. An optimal one or one that’s complete garbage. Which is why when most naturals try doing the same routine as someone on drugs they see almost no results.
Basing someone’s knowledge of training based solely on a photo is quite ignorant.
Don't think you are interpreting correctly, read the study again. Fat free body mass is everything in the body except fat (things like water are included in fat free body mass). No where in the article does it say those who did no weight trainng while taking drugs gained almost twice as much muscle mass as those weight training without drugs.
Heck what you're saying is correct, the gyms would be empty, and guys would be walking around jacked without ever touching a weight, just a bunch of needle marks on their butts
In the study if you look under results you’ll see these images.
The amount of growth in the triceps and quads were higher( much higher in the case of the triceps) in the males who were on drugs and not lifting as opposed to those who lifted and were natural.
Now to be fair, when it comes to strength on their one rep max, those who trained natural saw a bigger jump than those who didn’t train and were on drugs. But we also know that we can get better at the bench and squat through better technique even without gaining strength so in this case that would make sense.
Even still, you can see how much strength was gained by using drugs and not lifting compared to those who didn’t lift.
Now if you lift and take drugs this study shows you blow everything else out of the water.
Coming around full circle, just because someone’s big doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Drugs make such a huge difference that it doesn’t really matter what routine they use. They’ll get results. There are so many Instagram stars who promote all these routines that are full of fluff and will keep all of their followers who follow them tiny. Unless of course they are on drugs too.
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Learn your body and how it responds to food. Eat clean. Do work in the gym and it you will add muscle/lose fat. I have done a few bulks then cuts and this is a 4.5 year transformation. I never had a coach for training as I knew a good bit from my old football training days but I did use a nutritionist for a year in the beginning. Stay focused and quit worrying about putting on too much fat. I used to worry about going back to my old self too and the just derailed my focus on my goals.. good luck!
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