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Metabolism/TDEE related question
bobsburgersfan
Posts: 6,464 Member
in Debate Club
This question probably doesn't belong on the debate board, but I wanted to ask here because those of you who post on this board generally seem to have the most scientific knowledge behind your answers and I trust you!
I was talking to a friend (a super-skinny beanpole type) and she basically said that she has always had a good metabolism and that she "could eat and eat and eat and not gain weight." Since coming around here, I've come to realize that most of my pre-conceived beliefs about weight loss and diet were not true, and it got me wondering about this concept as well.
I've known other people throughout my life that have been described the same way - they have a great (or fast) metabolism, or "that person can eat ANYTHING and not gain weight", etc. Is that even a real thing? In my friend's case, it seems more likely to me that she just thinks she doesn't gain weight from eating a lot, but in reality she probably doesn't eat very much. She's definitely the kind of person who forgets to eat meals.
Obviously TDEE varies from person to person based on numerous factors, but are there really that large of variances in the baseline numbers? Or are these people just more active and/or don't eat as much as they think? Or is it way more complicated than that?
I was talking to a friend (a super-skinny beanpole type) and she basically said that she has always had a good metabolism and that she "could eat and eat and eat and not gain weight." Since coming around here, I've come to realize that most of my pre-conceived beliefs about weight loss and diet were not true, and it got me wondering about this concept as well.
I've known other people throughout my life that have been described the same way - they have a great (or fast) metabolism, or "that person can eat ANYTHING and not gain weight", etc. Is that even a real thing? In my friend's case, it seems more likely to me that she just thinks she doesn't gain weight from eating a lot, but in reality she probably doesn't eat very much. She's definitely the kind of person who forgets to eat meals.
Obviously TDEE varies from person to person based on numerous factors, but are there really that large of variances in the baseline numbers? Or are these people just more active and/or don't eat as much as they think? Or is it way more complicated than that? 5
Replies
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Metabolism is simply a series of biochemical reactions and while there is a slight variation, this variation exists with a small degree of error ~5%. What people refer to as metabolism is likely closer to TDEE as the average person doesn't care about the nuance (unless they begin having an issue with weight management).
Humans are incredibly unaware of their own behavior in comparison to other humans, so their "normal" tends to be projected onto others.
Even in the worst case scenario - clinical cases where patients with thyroid glands removed and taking no supplementation - show a decrease in BMR which falls within the degree of error for instruments.
The show Secret Eaters presents this in a very enlightening way.13 -
Don’t know for sure but I’d bet they are more active/don’t eat as much as they think.
100% of the time when I eat more calories, I gain weight. When I eat less calories, I lose weight.4 -
I have always been one of those people who others would say, usually with a bit of attitude, that I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain weight. But there are so many misconceptions that feed into that statement where I'm concerned at least.
Often, I'd here that when I came back from lunch with a fast food cup, so people figured fast food makes you get fat. Or helped myself to someone's birthday cake. They didn't know I chose my meal wisely and would eat differently the rest of the day to even things out. Heck, even at my heaviest, I doubt I was eating more than 1800 cals a day (based on my numbers now). Because I don't talk about exercise, you'd be amazed how many people assume I don't. They don't factor in that a take a walk first thing in the morning, on my lunch break, and in the evening. Plus strength training. Plus I make a point of moving around all day. And I have happy feet
Also, I tend to gain weight around my middle, and I'm a conservative dresser. So I can easily put on 10 lbs and no one who doesn't live with me would ever know. In fact, I lost 20 lbs over 2 years and almost no one realized. They called me "skinny" when I was one lb into the overweight range, and they call me skinny now.
IMHO people who are "naturally skinny" simply have an activity level that matches their appetite. Unless you follow someone around 24/7 with a fitness tracker and a food scale, you are effectively clueless about how much they eat or burn. Heck, most of us were effectively clueless about how much we ourselves ate and burned before logging (and some people don't log well enough and STILL don't really know)! I'd say it has a lot to do with lifestyle and how unwittingly small a window into other peoples' lives we really have, even those we're close to
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Thanks for your answers!4
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I tend to think those people suffer from the dreaded humblebrag disease. "I am just born lucky. I don't have to watch what I eat, unlike all you other peasants."
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They could also have a well balanced microbiome. I can't remember the name of specific microbes, some have been shown to have a more mindful effect on our weight. (I'm living in the UK where some of our companies have been working on digestive microbes in excess of 30 years.)19
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I went to look up some research on this to respond to this question, and it does seem that there can be some variability in BMR between similar stats people. The extent and the factors don't seem to be universally agreed on. Body composition plays a part. So if one person has more muscle than someone else at the same weight, they will likely have a higher BMR. BMR variations can be slight, but that cqn add up a lot over time. If 2 people have a 100 calorie BMR difference between the two of them, that is still a 10 pound difference per year between the two of them.
That being said, it's not clear that's a factor with your friend. There really is no such thing as "eat anything and never gain weight". "Eat whatever you want" is not the same thing. Some people don't naturally want to eat as high calorie things as other people. Some people are much better at naturally eating an appropriate amount for their TDEE. They may think that's "a lot", but they are also likely not paying attention to calories, so how would they know? They probably think certain foods are higher calories than they are, since they are labeled "bad". But as we know that's not always a case.
There's no way to know about your friend for sure without putting her in a lab, but my guess is that she just finds it easy to naturally eat at a level of her activity. It is possible that she has a slight BMR advantage, but it is probably not the determining factor.3 -
some people also fidget and move around a lot more than others, so even if they don't exercise much their NEAT and TDEE may be higher than others with the same stats, even if their BMRs are within 5% of each other7
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There was an interesting programme on earlier this year (UK) that basically followed and tracked a group of 'naturally slim' people. It turned out that they self regulated/moved a lot. There was only one woman (out of maybe 15) who was actually eating more than would appear to be correct for her size and activity level - the rest were all naturally eating at maintenance.13
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For years people complained that I was one of those people who could eat whatever I wanted and stay skinny - to the point where I believed it. But the truth was that I was working manual labor jobs that burned tons of calories. When I quit working manual labor jobs but didn't change my eating habits, it was then that I realized no, my metabolism had nothing to do with how skinny I'd been in the past.9
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Yup, I was one of those people too. Turns out "eat whatever I wanted" was substantially less than a lot of people. Sure, I'd get a hamburger and fries. But then I'd be full after a couple of bites and not eat the rest. If I was busy, I could easily go all day without eating or getting hungry. I worked jobs where I was on my feet all day and moving and didn't have time to snack. If I did eat a candy bar and soda for a snack, that may have been all I ate for 10hrs. So in my mind, I could eat "whatever I wanted" and stay the same size. It just so happened, what I wanted to eat and the amounts I wanted to eat equaled the amount of energy I was burning. It doesn't always work that way.8
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Wish those of you who woo me Lived here in the UK, if only for the health information we have, If you followed the same health, dietary and scientific programs we have you would know what I know too.22
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some people also fidget and move around a lot more than others, so even if they don't exercise much their NEAT and TDEE may be higher than others with the same stats, even if their BMRs are within 5% of each other
This I think cues in on a big difference on maintenance calories between people. It's not so much the BMRs, but the activity levels that are not always easy to measure. The activity multipliers used by a site like MFP are very general, and your own individual activity depends on a whole bunch of factors that are not always super obvious. So even though someone may not feel like they are active (they don't do a lot of intentional exercise), they could still have a high TDEE from being more generally active in their daily behavior.1 -
Wish those of you who woo me Lived here in the UK, if only for the health information we have, If you followed the same health, dietary and scientific programs we have you would know what I know too.
There are plenty of people in the US who believe lots of unproven science about gut bacteria being the cure for all that ails us in the world, so you are not alone in that.21 -
People burn calories at different rates, it depends on a number of factors.
1. How active someone is.
2. If they fidgit a lot (some people are constantly moving even when I sitting)
3. the more muscle mass you have the more calories you burn at rest
It isn’t as simple as eat this many calories if you weigh this much and are this tall. The BMR on this MFP app for example is a rough guide, it tries to take into consideration your activity but it’s not accurate. It takes a little experimenting and measurements to gain a realistic calorie goal but it’s a close as you need to see results.
Here comes the woo part... there are some people who literally eat what they like and as much as they want and struggle to gain weight. I’ve had skinny clients who consume well over 3000 calories a day and see no gains. They are just genetically predisposed to do so. In my experience these people do exist. So, I don’t know what to tell ya! They are either gifted or cursed depending on how you look at it.bobsburgersfan wrote: »This question probably doesn't belong on the debate board, but I wanted to ask here because those of you who post on this board generally seem to have the most scientific knowledge behind your answers and I trust you!
I was talking to a friend (a super-skinny beanpole type) and she basically said that she has always had a good metabolism and that she "could eat and eat and eat and not gain weight." Since coming around here, I've come to realize that most of my pre-conceived beliefs about weight loss and diet were not true, and it got me wondering about this concept as well.
I've known other people throughout my life that have been described the same way - they have a great (or fast) metabolism, or "that person can eat ANYTHING and not gain weight", etc. Is that even a real thing? In my friend's case, it seems more likely to me that she just thinks she doesn't gain weight from eating a lot, but in reality she probably doesn't eat very much. She's definitely the kind of person who forgets to eat meals. Obviously TDEE varies from person to person based on numerous factors, but are there really that large of variances in the baseline numbers? Or are these people just more active and/or don't eat as much as they think? Or is it way more complicated than that?
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I remember the days where I could eat anything I want and not gain weight...
Of course, that was also when I was in my early 20's, single and a gym rat weight lifting 5 x week, and training for a marathon. Most of my activities centered around being outdoors a lot and hiking/adventuring. Never felt a need to watch my food intake during those years...
Fast forward 15 years later...now married, 2 x kiddos under 8, far more sedentary job, far more crap and responsibilities encroaching on my free time...lucky if I can hit the gym 3 x times a week and running 2 miles twice a week seems like a huge achievement. Yeah, I'm not longer one of those people who can eat however much I want. Which is also why I'm here.
Of course, the 20 something me never understood how my older co-workers just couldn't pull it together and stay fit. Never had the perspective of all the additional time sucking activities and responsibilities that life brings with it as one gets additional work responsibilities, family responsibilities, etc.
Yeah, the only people these days my age that I know that claim to have a naturally "good metabolism" are also the ones that just seem to forget to eat (they do exist...my co-worker regularly skips breakfast and if he gets caught up in his work, can skip lunch as well and rarely thinks about food). Versus me, who is contemplating what to cook for dinner shortly after eating lunch.
Everyone is different (shrugs).
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I think there are a whole bunch of inclinations and habits that converge to create impressions that some people can eat massive amounts and not gain, whereas others gain weight eating the occasional lettuce leaf.
One reason I think this is that 4 years of careful logging suggests I have a TDEE/NEATsubstantially higher than MFP and some other calculators estimate (I'm not sure specifically why that would be so, but the data lead me inescapably to that conclusion).
In the popular understanding of the term "metabolism", this would suggest I have a "fast metabolism". (Note: I doubt it's really BMR that's causing the effect.)
But guess what? I got obese and stayed that way for decades anyway . . . because it's only a few hundred calories. On the one hand, a few hundred calories is a lot, and I'm grateful I can eat more. But it's super easy to eat a few hundred extra calories. Double the whole wheat pasta serving, add some extra cheese, put the freshly whipped cream on the fruit . . . boom. Or eat a brownie: Done. "Fast metabolism" + unleashed hedonic eating = obesity.
I have a close friend who's "naturally thin": Been thin her whole life. We've spent enough time together that I have a fair handle on her all-day eating and exercise habits. She's very tall for a female, so when you add that to our collective human tendency to adhere to behavior norms (about how much it's "normal" to eat, in this case), that helps her stay thin. But beyond that, she actually stops eating when there's food she finds tasty still sitting on her plate. I would never do that (unless calorie counting
). She skips or minimizes dinner if she eats an indulgent lunch. I would never do that (unless calorie counting). And so forth. 8 -
It amazes me how I’ve got 6 woo’s for my comment. I’ve basically said exactly the same as everyone else, except I’ve got the experience to know there are outliers. I’ve literally trained them, they exist.11
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I collect woo's too.
I know the state of one's digestive biome plays an important role in one's health. I learned the hard way about the effects of antibiotics and different medications can have on health. Over the years last 10 years I've turn to the functional side of medicine because they use exactly the same tests as general medicine but instead of putting sticking plaster medications over an issue, Functional Medics look to the base cause of the issues and address those, usually with diet and or supplements, occasionally with medications when the body needs more time to correct itself.
Its only when your life really hits the buffers, when here in the UK when the NHS does not provide the help you need personally. What would you do if your symptoms did not fit into the designated areas/boxes for treatment, we need to research for yourself and follow the scientific information we have available. I hope no one's health deteriorates as mine did or similar.
No I do not assume everyone who disapproves of my understanding of the microbiome and the difficulties lacking certain microbes can cause, like b 12 deficiency and various vitamin deficiencies all come from the US only that most of them do.
Inside Health was very interesting last night. The UK could well be following Canada and Australia in ensuring those on many medication young and old, actually "still" need them because the treatment had worked, or to ensure there are no crossover reactions between the medications being taken. It all comes down to taking better care of ourselves.
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lukejoycePT wrote: »It amazes me how I’ve got 6 woo’s for my comment. I’ve basically said exactly the same as everyone else, except I’ve got the experience to know there are outliers. I’ve literally trained them, they exist.
But you are not with them 24/7, you don't know their real food intake or how much they move when not exercising. Though a fast metabolism is possible due to hormonal imbalances such as hyperthyroidism, opposite of hypothyroidism, so possible your client has that, or they just eat less and move more than reported.15 -
I collect woo's too.
I know the state of one's digestive biome plays an important role in one's health. I learned the hard way about the effects of antibiotics and different medications can have on health. Over the years last 10 years I've turn to the functional side of medicine because they use exactly the same tests as general medicine but instead of putting sticking plaster medications over an issue, Functional Medics look to the base cause of the issues and address those, usually with diet and or supplements, occasionally with medications when the body needs more time to correct itself.
Its only when your life really hits the buffers, when here in the UK when the NHS does not provide the help you need personally. What would you do if your symptoms did not fit into the designated areas/boxes for treatment, we need to research for yourself and follow the scientific information we have available. I hope no one's health deteriorates as mine did or similar.
No I do not assume everyone who disapproves of my understanding of the microbiome and the difficulties lacking certain microbes can cause, like b 12 deficiency and various vitamin deficiencies all come from the US only that most of them do.
Inside Health was very interesting last night. The UK could well be following Canada and Australia in ensuring those on many medication young and old, actually "still" need them because the treatment had worked, or to ensure there are no crossover reactions between the medications being taken. It all comes down to taking better care of ourselves.
being deficient in vitamins and minerals has nothing to do with weight management, that is all cals in cals out. I agree that when it comes to health the state of one's digestive biome is important.. but health =/= weight management.17 -
As someone who's thyroid has destroyed itself I can absolutely confirm that it makes very little difference to metabolism in terms of burning calories. What it does do is make you more sluggish and a lot less likely to fidget (I can be mistaken for a sloth at times) and give you an excuse to give yourself as to why you "can't" lose weight.
So I'm not saying it has no effect, but as always, it's the same old calories in = less than calories out that does the trick along with a good old dose of being kind to and honest to yourself.11 -
Thats a blanket statement and untrue. Your gut does affect weight management, of course it does. Your gut biome effects many factors and It is not just calories in vs calories out. If you want a six pack and decent muscle mass eating 1500 calories of donuts a day will not give you those results.I collect woo's too.
I know the state of one's digestive biome plays an important role in one's health. I learned the hard way about the effects of antibiotics and different medications can have on health. Over the years last 10 years I've turn to the functional side of medicine because they use exactly the same tests as general medicine but instead of putting sticking plaster medications over an issue, Functional Medics look to the base cause of the issues and address those, usually with diet and or supplements, occasionally with medications when the body needs more time to correct itself.
Its only when your life really hits the buffers, when here in the UK when the NHS does not provide the help you need personally. What would you do if your symptoms did not fit into the designated areas/boxes for treatment, we need to research for yourself and follow the scientific information we have available. I hope no one's health deteriorates as mine did or similar.
No I do not assume everyone who disapproves of my understanding of the microbiome and the difficulties lacking certain microbes can cause, like b 12 deficiency and various vitamin deficiencies all come from the US only that most of them do.
Inside Health was very interesting last night. The UK could well be following Canada and Australia in ensuring those on many medication young and old, actually "still" need them because the treatment had worked, or to ensure there are no crossover reactions between the medications being taken. It all comes down to taking better care of ourselves.
being deficient in vitamins and minerals has nothing to do with weight management, that is all cals in cals out. I agree that when it comes to health the state of one's digestive biome is important.. but health =/= weight management.
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lukejoycePT wrote: »It amazes me how I’ve got 6 woo’s for my comment. I’ve basically said exactly the same as everyone else, except I’ve got the experience to know there are outliers. I’ve literally trained them, they exist.
But you are not with them 24/7, you don't know their real food intake or how much they move when not exercising. Though a fast metabolism is possible due to hormonal imbalances such as hyperthyroidism, opposite of hypothyroidism, so possible your client has that, or they just eat less and move more than reported.
I have spent many hours with these particular clients because of this issue and i can tell you it's not down to their activity or lack of food.
Also, after a prolonged diet you do realised your metabolic rate slows down and your body actually stops involuntary movements as much as possible in order to conserve energy.25 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Thats a blanket statement and untrue. Your gut does affect weight management, of course it does. Your gut biome effects many factors and It is not just calories in vs calories out. If you want a six pack and decent muscle mass eating 1500 calories of donuts a day will not give you those results.I collect woo's too.
I know the state of one's digestive biome plays an important role in one's health. I learned the hard way about the effects of antibiotics and different medications can have on health. Over the years last 10 years I've turn to the functional side of medicine because they use exactly the same tests as general medicine but instead of putting sticking plaster medications over an issue, Functional Medics look to the base cause of the issues and address those, usually with diet and or supplements, occasionally with medications when the body needs more time to correct itself.
Its only when your life really hits the buffers, when here in the UK when the NHS does not provide the help you need personally. What would you do if your symptoms did not fit into the designated areas/boxes for treatment, we need to research for yourself and follow the scientific information we have available. I hope no one's health deteriorates as mine did or similar.
No I do not assume everyone who disapproves of my understanding of the microbiome and the difficulties lacking certain microbes can cause, like b 12 deficiency and various vitamin deficiencies all come from the US only that most of them do.
Inside Health was very interesting last night. The UK could well be following Canada and Australia in ensuring those on many medication young and old, actually "still" need them because the treatment had worked, or to ensure there are no crossover reactions between the medications being taken. It all comes down to taking better care of ourselves.
being deficient in vitamins and minerals has nothing to do with weight management, that is all cals in cals out. I agree that when it comes to health the state of one's digestive biome is important.. but health =/= weight management.
that is body composition, not weight. You are mixing and matching arguments here.14 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »lukejoycePT wrote: »It amazes me how I’ve got 6 woo’s for my comment. I’ve basically said exactly the same as everyone else, except I’ve got the experience to know there are outliers. I’ve literally trained them, they exist.
But you are not with them 24/7, you don't know their real food intake or how much they move when not exercising. Though a fast metabolism is possible due to hormonal imbalances such as hyperthyroidism, opposite of hypothyroidism, so possible your client has that, or they just eat less and move more than reported.
I have spent many hours with these particular clients because of this issue and i can tell you it's not down to their activity or lack of food.
Also, after a prolonged diet you do realised your metabolic rate slows down and your body actually stops involuntary movements as much as possible in order to conserve energy.
Yes, but that is part of cals out. So really your deficit is just smaller than you assume it is, that does not mean CICO dictates weight management. So yeah, in a prolonged deficit your cals our drop from reduced movement/fidgeting, and from carrying less weight, no one is arguing those points, but nice strawman you are trying to draw.7 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Thats a blanket statement and untrue. Your gut does affect weight management, of course it does. Your gut biome effects many factors and It is not just calories in vs calories out. If you want a six pack and decent muscle mass eating 1500 calories of donuts a day will not give you those results.I collect woo's too.
I know the state of one's digestive biome plays an important role in one's health. I learned the hard way about the effects of antibiotics and different medications can have on health. Over the years last 10 years I've turn to the functional side of medicine because they use exactly the same tests as general medicine but instead of putting sticking plaster medications over an issue, Functional Medics look to the base cause of the issues and address those, usually with diet and or supplements, occasionally with medications when the body needs more time to correct itself.
Its only when your life really hits the buffers, when here in the UK when the NHS does not provide the help you need personally. What would you do if your symptoms did not fit into the designated areas/boxes for treatment, we need to research for yourself and follow the scientific information we have available. I hope no one's health deteriorates as mine did or similar.
No I do not assume everyone who disapproves of my understanding of the microbiome and the difficulties lacking certain microbes can cause, like b 12 deficiency and various vitamin deficiencies all come from the US only that most of them do.
Inside Health was very interesting last night. The UK could well be following Canada and Australia in ensuring those on many medication young and old, actually "still" need them because the treatment had worked, or to ensure there are no crossover reactions between the medications being taken. It all comes down to taking better care of ourselves.
being deficient in vitamins and minerals has nothing to do with weight management, that is all cals in cals out. I agree that when it comes to health the state of one's digestive biome is important.. but health =/= weight management.
that is body composition, not weight. You are mixing and matching arguments here.
Also, 1500 cals of donuts is a strawman argument and has way less protein than the typical junk food/fast food heavy diets that some real people eat. Plenty of people have six-packs eating a non optimal from a health perspective diet.10
This discussion has been closed.
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