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Emotional Support Dog at the Gym
Theoldguy1
Posts: 2,496 Member
in Debate Club
I was at the gym yesterday. The gym has a large open interior area in the back of the building for sled pushing, carried, walking lunges, floor work etc. It was 5 PM so a decent crowd in the gym. A woman comes into the area with an unleashed dog and starts to run sprints with the dog. The dog runs with her pretty well but occasionally gets distracted and goes over and smells the butt of people doing floor work and gets in the face of someone doing handstand pushups. After running sprints they go to the water fountain where the woman turns on the water and the dog drinks from the handicapped accessible fountain which he can easily reach.
As I was leaving I asked the girl at the front desk and she tells me it's an emotional support dog. Now I love dogs and understand the benefits of emotional support animals but should they be running around off leash and with no service animal vest in a public gym? The front desk girl asked if I wanted to complain. I told her no because I didn't think she would actually tell a manager. I'm planning on writing an email to the manager expressing my concern the dog running loose could actually hurt someone and if it's in the gym should be on a leash at all times.
Am I right or being an *kitten*?
As I was leaving I asked the girl at the front desk and she tells me it's an emotional support dog. Now I love dogs and understand the benefits of emotional support animals but should they be running around off leash and with no service animal vest in a public gym? The front desk girl asked if I wanted to complain. I told her no because I didn't think she would actually tell a manager. I'm planning on writing an email to the manager expressing my concern the dog running loose could actually hurt someone and if it's in the gym should be on a leash at all times.
Am I right or being an *kitten*?
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Replies
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Oh geez. Are you kidding me?? I think you handled it a lot better than I would have. I will refrain from voicing my true opinion because I'm sure it will just come out: *kitten kitten kitten kitten what the kitten*??? To answer your question, I don't think you're being a *kitten* at all. Email the manager and get a petition going with the other members.... or next thing you know - the dog will be in the pool....
My brother was bitten by an emotional support dog on a plane last year - so this topic tends to rile me and get me all emotional. Maybe I should get a dog....35 -
I don't see the dog in the gym being a problem. I do see the animal being allowed to roam around unleashed as being a huge issue. The last thing some guy/gal lifting heavy stuff needs is a nose poked into their crotch or butt. I would ask that the gym stipulate that the animal has to be leashed at all times.68
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typically emotional support animals aren't covered under ADA rules/regulations like service dogs are - i would def. file a complaint with the gym owner48
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So the big question is, what does "Emotional Support Dog" mean here? Because it's one thing if it's a trained therapy animal, with an actual certification and so on -- or, what happens way too often, the owner just wants to bring the dog to work and calls it an emotional support dog. People even buy service dog vests to back up the claim--you can buy one in many places with just your debit card. People abuse this all the time.
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Whether the dog is some kind of 'official' support animal is a complete red herring.
The thing that matters is that the dog is intruding on people's workouts and drinking directly from the fountain. Both of these things carry a risk of harm to other gym goers (have you seen the sorts of thing that dogs put in their mouths?!). As such, it has to stop being there, either permanently or until such time as the owner has trained it sufficiently that it isn't a health risk.42 -
kenyonhaff wrote: »So the big question is, what does "Emotional Support Dog" mean here? Because it's one thing if it's a trained therapy animal, with an actual certification and so on -- or, what happens way too often, the owner just wants to bring the dog to work and calls it an emotional support dog. People even buy service dog vests to back up the claim--you can buy one in many places with just your debit card. People abuse this all the time.
This.. my sister in law dogs are certified and always leashed as soon she put on those vest and takes them to children's hospital for patient visits.
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The dog should be leashed AND vested at all times when in public. The owner is abusing the privilege of having that dog. If that dog is leaving her side at all, it's not properly trained as a support animal.52
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They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.21 -
BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.7 -
quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.4 -
BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
You are required to carry it, but I'm not allowed to ask for it. Da gubmint is smart.
Back story: We had an (unconfirmed) veteran who would bring his "service" pit bull into the courthouse using bailing twine as a leash. I had to deal with him - carefully. We got it worked out, but it is frustrating.11 -
Allowing the dog to drink from the water fountain is a huge health code violation. Regardless of whether or not they are justified in having a support animal, that's gross.31
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For everyone's reading pleasure, the ADA requirements for service animals... (FYI, support animal =/= service animal)
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
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quiksylver296 wrote: »For everyone's reading pleasure, the ADA requirements for service animals... (FYI, support animal =/= service animal)
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
This exactly, and I'm glad that you made the point of emotional support is not a service animal is many or most cases. My comments were regarding service animals and not ESA.10 -
BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »For everyone's reading pleasure, the ADA requirements for service animals... (FYI, support animal =/= service animal)
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
This exactly, and I'm glad that you made the point of emotional support is not a service animal is many or most cases. My comments were regarding service animals and not ESA.
My MIL had an emotional support dog. Her doctor signed some note, and poof! Her obnoxious Chihuahua was dubbed an ESA. That dog had NO training or manners. Drove me crazy!20 -
It's been my experience that most legitimate service animal handlers are willing to volunteer their documentation without being asked.
It's only the people skirting the system that get bent out of shape.
And yes, untrained dogs in public spaces are a nuisance to everyone else.18 -
Only in America28
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Most places of business will accept ADA service dogs. I think by law they may even be required to. Under the ADA, a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. "Emotional support" animals do not fall under that category.This gym simply chose to allow an unleashed pet to be on their premises.13
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sadly, i've found emotional support animals and their humans are not always properly trained.
the dog should be in a vest and if he is not trained to stay in a heel or place command, should be leashed.11 -
Just an FYI, neither service animals nor emotional support animals need to be certified. There's no national certifying body that involves regulation of this sort of thing. They also aren't required to have any sort of indication stating that they are a service animal. Here's the link to the PDF that the above image was clipped from. There are a number of parts that are relevant to this conversation (really the whole document is) but I'll quote a few.Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls.When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
So I guess the question is is it an emotional support animal or is it a service animal. Given that emotional disorders can and do fall under the heading of "disability" in many instances as seen in the part of the first quote that I bolded, the question is did the person whose animal it was say that it was a support animal or did they say it was a service dog? Outside of the drinking fountain issue (which...the first words that come to mind are not exactly kind), if the animal is a support dog I think you're just going to have to suck it up and deal.
With regards to the lack of certification that I mentioned above, here's another PDF from the ADA that talks about this in more detail - https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.pdfQ17: Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?
A: No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has
been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.
There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal.4 -
BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
Law in what country? Can you provide any links that state this? I ask because I've never heard of that being true in the US.2 -
Good move in speaking directly with the manager. Too much is lost in miscommunication.
I spend a good deal of time in a Navy base gym where we have a couple of contractors with service/support dogs, but these are well trained and a welcome addition to the gym.
I would not accept unruly behavior in a place of business where I have a choice - not from adults, children, or pets.
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BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
Law in what country? Can you provide any links that state this? I ask because I've never heard of that being true in the US.
All airlines and housing have legal rights to ask for all documentation. This is the same in all states.2 -
BecomingBane wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
Law in what country? Can you provide any links that state this? I ask because I've never heard of that being true in the US.
All airlines and housing have legal rights to ask for all documentation. This is the same in all states.
Airlines and housing specifically get to play by different rules so that doesn't really apply to the certification and prescription bit (never mind that there isn't a governmentally recognized certifying body - at least not with regards to things outside of animals on planes or in housing situations).
From the first document I linked to earlier today:Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act.
Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office.
Given that the situation at the gym isn't on a plane (a gym on a plane - that's an idea...) nor is it related to housing, it's a bit of a moot point.6 -
BecomingBane wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
Law in what country? Can you provide any links that state this? I ask because I've never heard of that being true in the US.
All airlines and housing have legal rights to ask for all documentation. This is the same in all states.
Airlines and housing specifically get to play by different rules so that doesn't really apply to the certification and prescription bit (never mind that there isn't a governmentally recognized certifying body - at least not with regards to things outside of animals on planes or in housing situations).
From the first document I linked to earlier today:Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act.
Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office.
Given that the situation at the gym isn't on a plane (a gym on a plane - that's an idea...) nor is it related to housing, it's a bit of a moot point.
That is true, but if you didn't notice, the conversation that we were having deviated from the OP somewhat. Thanks for pointing that out. I never would have noticed otherwise.
*ETA more sarcasm since it doesn't come across well enough in a re-reading.8 -
There used to be a guy at my gym that brought a dog. Not sure what purpose the dog served (emotional support or other service or working dog). The guy was in the military, and the dog was SUPER well-behaved. Obviously, it was well-trained and a non-issue. The owner obviously took the dog's safety pretty seriously, b/c a loose dog in a gym could easily get injured.
I think the owner of OP's dog is the real problem...NOT the dog.21 -
The dog being unleashed and approaching other patrons is a major problem.
Allowing the dog to drink from the fountain is also a major problem.
Emotional support animal or not, the dog should be under control at all times or not allowed in the gym.
All it takes is for the dog to sniff someone's butt in the squat rack and someone may have a life altering injury.
A guy at my gym has a support or service dog he brings with him but the dog, a lab, is vested and harnessed (the style of harness with a handle) and while it is technically unleashed during the guy's workout, it simply lays next to whichever bench the guy is using and stays still, never approaching anyone else.26 -
Don't forget that a business owner is within their rights to remove any animal they deem to be a danger to the environment, the employees, or the patrons. That's well within their rights under ADA compliance.12
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BecomingBane wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »They do have a legal obligation to back up their claim. That said, the gym also has a strong incentive not to force them to back up the claim because that can easily be viewed as discrimination and a litigious person can get an almost guaranteed win under ADA law in most places.
The people who abuse the service animal programs really ruin it for those that actually have need of a support animal.
Depends on where you are, I guess. In my state, you can't challenge them and only ask very specific questions to confirm.
I've never seen that in law. I have seen that most hr policies are designed that way to avoid potential lawsuits.
All law that I've seen indicates that service animal handlers are required by law to carry the cert and the prescription at all times for proof. I know when I had mine registered that's how it was presented to me and my subsequent reading of the laws that we are bound by in my locality does not preclude anyone asking. That has always been the policy everywhere that I've worked though... only to ask if it was a service dog or other specific questions.
Law in what country? Can you provide any links that state this? I ask because I've never heard of that being true in the US.
All airlines and housing have legal rights to ask for all documentation. This is the same in all states.
Airlines and housing specifically get to play by different rules so that doesn't really apply to the certification and prescription bit (never mind that there isn't a governmentally recognized certifying body - at least not with regards to things outside of animals on planes or in housing situations).
From the first document I linked to earlier today:Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act.
Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office.
Given that the situation at the gym isn't on a plane (a gym on a plane - that's an idea...) nor is it related to housing, it's a bit of a moot point.
That is true, but if you didn't notice, the conversation that we were having deviated from the OP somewhat. Thanks for pointing that out. I never would have noticed otherwise.
*ETA more sarcasm since it doesn't come across well enough in a re-reading.
The thread has deviated slightly but there's continual circling around (it's like a plane in a holding pattern). Even with that, most people aren't on planes for the bulk of their waking hours. The housing stuff is a bit different and dealing with fair housing is probably a mess.
As an aside, the wife of a very good friend of mine has an emotional support dog (who really fits more in line with a service animal - given she works for the federal government, that's probably what they actually classify her as when talking with most people) who is still in training to help manage PTSD related symptoms. That dog might be the best behaved dog, when she's working, I've ever seen and that's despite still being a puppy. They work with a trainer once or twice a week and even the trainer is impressed, enough so that she asked for the breeder's name.
I think the problem that the ADA has with regards to service animals is how to deal with the lack of certification and documentation requirements. It's, necessarily, too easy to claim that a dog is a service animal. I say "necessarily" because I think putting even more boundaries in front of people who need service dogs isn't equitable, given the amount of resources that would take. I also suspect that fewer people would get approved for service dogs than need them if we compare the potential application process to trying to get on disability.
On the other hand, I agree with everyone that there are way too many people who are claiming that their dogs are service animals and whose dogs clearly are not that (I know I agree in some respects with everyone, who would have thought
). That, of course, also makes it harder for everyone else who uses a service dog for reasons that aren't obvious to the general public - so say, someone is using a service animal to detect seizures or for balance.
edited for typos and to fix some ambiguity0 -
deputy_randolph wrote: »There used to be a guy at my gym that brought a dog. Not sure what purpose the dog served (emotional support or other service or working dog). The guy was in the military, and the dog was SUPER well-behaved. Obviously, it was well-trained and a non-issue. The owner obviously took the dog's safety pretty seriously, b/c a loose dog in a gym could easily get injured.
I think the owner of OP's dog is the real problem...NOT the dog.
This is a good point. Perhaps the dog owner in OP's anecdote needs to be reported for violating whatever laws the locality has against dangerous neglect of an animal.
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