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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related
Replies
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pierinifitness wrote: »There are certain characters here who repeatedly post comments to dismiss the IF benefits many have experienced and share out of genuine enthusiasm but not proffering IF to be a Fountain of Youth elixir or anything magical.
What I've noticed, and I could be wrong because I sometimes am, is that these characters seem to have had an unpleasant experience of gaining weight while practicing IF which I find hard to comprehend.
I'm not sure why it's hard to comprehend..... It's pretty much any WOE, if you haven't learned portion/calorie control with the WOE...you'll gain weight. Not every WOE works for everyone. I would absolutely struggle doing IF and could easily over eat.So, it's natural that they may not be IF's most zealous cheerleaders. Meanwhile, the rest of us continue to reap our benefits being IF characters, even those of us solidly in maintenance because we know, at a higher level, it's a lifestyle. The End.
I would say that's every WOE too. For it to be successful we need to make it a lifestyle. I'm not going to be successful on keto, low carb, IFYM, etc.... if I don't adjust my lifestyle and utilize calorie control with it.
I don't understand your "tone" towards people who have had the audacity to have not handled IF well but have found something else that works better for them.11 -
There are some ways of practicing IF that I would find it hard to imagine someone eating enough within their eating window to gain weight. An example would be someone who only eats during a four hour window every 24 hours. Sticking to that, I myself can't imagine being able to eat enough in four hours to gain weight, even if I think of caloric high density foods. Honestly eating enough to maintain in six hours seems difficult, if not very uncomfortable.
I am perfectly capable -- in fact I've done it, a lot more than once, unfortunately -- of ingesting 4,000-5,000+ calories in an hour. Actually, it's quite easy, and quite familiar to most obese people. Start with a pepperoni and sausage pizza and take it from there - easy, peasy.
IF is a great tool, the absolute best tool in my dieting toolkit, but it's an add-on, not a substitute, for strict calorie counting.10 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted5 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
I don't see anyone here saying there is no chance that there are any other benefits. Just saying no one should force themselves to do this because someone on the internet says it has benefits that other people don't see and as of yet there's no scientific reason to suggest it would. Unfortunately, many (if not most) strangers on the internet are not nearly as good at eliminating extraneous variables and determining cause and effect as they think they are. That's why people post here swearing that drinking ACV makes them lose weight faster, or zigzagging calories "broke" their plateau. Heck, we don't even know if anyone relaying their own experience here is telling the exact truth or exaggerating to bolster their online profile.
If IF makes it easier, or is at least neutral, for you to eat the right calories, and you'd like to do it because you believe it is giving you other benefits, awesome. But there are desperate people out there who will tie themselves into knots if they think there is a special way of eating that will bestow special benefits on them, and I think it's only fair to make clear to them those benefits are not proven or guaranteed, so don't make yourself miserable trying to get them.8 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
I don't see anyone dismissing that possibility. I do see some, including me, taking a wait and see approach. Honestly, I think that is prudent.
As I've stated twice already in this thread, I do IF. So, I would love to see other benefits proven. They have not been yet though. I don't dismiss the possibility that they may. Or may not.4 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
I don't see anyone dismissing that possibility. I do see some, including me, taking a wait and see approach. Honestly, I think that is prudent.
We'll have to agree to disagree about this
I read (but do not comment on ) all of the IF threads that I see posted on MFP, based on my personal interest in the topic, and many people seem quite dismissive of any possibilty of any other effects of IF beyond scheduling and CICO based on what I've read.
I won't bother trying to cite chpt and verse on each such comment I've read but I do pay attn to what is said and not everyone has a "wait and see" position on the possibilty of any other effects of IF beyond scheduling and CICO7 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
I don't see anyone dismissing that possibility. I do see some, including me, taking a wait and see approach. Honestly, I think that is prudent.
We'll have to agree to disagree about this
I read (but do not comment on ) all of the IF threads that I see posted on MFP, based on my personal interest in the topic, and many people seem quite dismissive of any possibilty of any other effects of IF beyond scheduling and CICO based on what I've read.
I won't bother trying to cite chpt and verse on each such comment I've read but I do pay attn to what is said and not everyone has a "wait and see" position on the possibilty of any other effects of IF beyond scheduling and CICO
I think there is a certain shorthand though. If someone posts "I want to do IF because I heard it has health benefits" people are going to post, "It doesn't have any added benefits, its just an eating schedule" because it does not have proven benefits. I suppose these posts when taken out of the context of all the IF threads in the forum could seem unnecessarily dismissive.
I don't think it's realistic though to expect someone who is doing IF and not seeing extra benefits to post in these threads "There are some people who claim to experience extra benefits, such as: faster weight loss, improved blood glucose levels, higher TDEE, greater feelings of well-being, longer telomeres, an inability to overeat, and other possible benefits, but none of these benefits have been proven and are not in fact experienced by everyone who does IF. There has been some promising research done in reference to insulin resistant subjects, but this research is in it's very early stages."5 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
This can be said about anything. There could be benefits to hitting yourself on the head with a hammer that just haven't been proven yet. It's not a good argument for doing something.
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I personally feel much more energized using IF. Working out is much easier when I'm fasted, and I focus better in class. I'm way more cheery at work. Most importantly, I'm not thinking about food all day! I can just live without worrying about when I'm going to eat next, without obsessing over calorie counts and feeling anxious about being socially obligated to eat.
I just feel more free. I only think about food four hours a day, and it's a treat instead of a torture.14 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibility that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
To state that there can't possibly be any other benefits is false. The golden mean is always somewhere in the middle of absolutes.
A simple provable benefit is that it establishes a routine as a stimulus for change. It helps establish discipline.
Statements like these come from people with a basic misunderstanding of science - just enough information to make them dangerous. There are few absolutes in reality, we tend to continually re-evaluate "what is known" based upon new data and new perspectives.
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Then there are those of us that are not looking for any other possibilities other than a way to control our eating. If IF/TRE/Skipping Breakfast/Whatever helps us...that is good enough. I really don't care if others approve or not...just doesn't matter to me.
If a day comes when my eating plan stops working for me then I will back up and find another way.9 -
It"'s funny to me how the people who believe that IF is only a way of scheduling when you eat and who believe that weight loss is just about CICO are so dismissive of the possibity of any other benefits from IF than just weight loss.
It's seems that the argument is that, since there is no scientifically acceptable proof that there are other benefits, there can't possibly be any other benefits, which is pure nonsense. There can be benefits that just haven't been proven yet
I know that since I started doing IF over 3 months ago that I have been better able to control my wt, even when I haven't strictly followed my IF schedule and have not strictly limited my cal intake, which contradicts the premise that it's only about scheduling and CICO
I'm not trying to make the case that there actually are other benefits to IF but to dismiss any possibilty that there "may" be other benefits is shortsighted and bigoted
The way science works, you could make the argument about pegasus - sure people say pegasus don't exist, so they must be motivated to disbelieve which is why they'll never accept scientific evidence showing pegasus exist. You could even point out that the people who believe that ones who think evolution explain biodiversity, in analogy to people saying CICO causes weight loss. I say the analogy because it works - evolution actually explains you would not see a pegasus because an tetrapod won't evolve into a hexapod, the body plan is too fixed. CICO explains weight loss, and along with some other physiology principles that are understood by many that understood CICO, they realize a lot of IF benefits are going to be from weight loss.
It is always possible IF has some benefits that go beyond the psychological regulation it helps with. So far, there isn't a lot of evidence that teases itself clear as separate from weight loss.4 -
Worth noting, having one study that shows a benefit actually isn't evidence when you consider just from the article, there are at least two studies that don't show a benefit. On top of that, you have the desk drawer problem - negative results are less likely to be published than positive results, so if there are two studies that show nothing, and one that shows something, there is a decent chance there are even more negative results studies that have never been published. If the majority of data points to no effect, a single study is probably a statistical anomaly.
I am actually inclined to think that it would make physiological sense that IF would lead to greater insulin sensitivity - it would basically be out of almost necessity that the body has to more tightly regulate glucose when it comes less frequently. On the flip side, I'm not sure then that the kind of improved insulin sensitivity broadcasts the same health benefits it normally does.8 -
I like Alan’s take on it
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Then there are those of us that are not looking for any other possibilities other than a way to control our eating. If IF/TRE/Skipping Breakfast/Whatever helps us...that is good enough. I really don't care if others approve or not...just doesn't matter to me.
And obviously no one disapproves of this.
It's pretty clear what people object to -- claims that IF is better than other eating schedules for all or has magical effects or makes one superior (or those who don't think it's perfect inferior). If that's not you, you are just doing what most everyone does -- going with an eating schedule that works for you.
My usual eating schedule 3 meals no snacks or, occasionally, 2 meals no snacks, works really well for me. But I don't claim I'm healthier or more energetic or getting all sorts of magical effects or following a superior plan than those who prefer other eating schedules, so most people don't really care whether my eating schedule is what they personally would prefer, and that's how I feel about those who eat in a more narrow window daily.3 -
Then there are those of us that are not looking for any other possibilities other than a way to control our eating. If IF/TRE/Skipping Breakfast/Whatever helps us...that is good enough. I really don't care if others approve or not...just doesn't matter to me.
If a day comes when my eating plan stops working for me then I will back up and find another way.
Yup!
I've been - technically at least - doing IF for literally decades. Four and a half, to be exact. Long before it had a fancy name, different 'feeding windows,' or the implied degrees of commitment and moral fortitude ranging from slacker all the way up to hardcore saint.
I simply don't eat breakfast.
I don't eat breakfast because I'm rarely hungry in the morning. I've always been this way, even as a child. Drove my mom nuts!
Even during the whole "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day" era, it seemed counterintuitive to me to eat when I simply wasn't hungry. Eating first thing in the morning actually made me feel nauseous. I had no idea I was one of the foremothers of an eventual dieting religion revolution that would attract more zealots than flies on poop, though.
But here's what I discovered over those decades: Sometimes Intermittent Fasting in and of itself may not work so well for weight management unless it is also combined with a knowledge of calories.
When I started skipping breakfast, it wasn't with weight control in mind. It was merely my preferred eating pattern. I was in my twenties, very tall and very slim. I didn't even know much about calories outside of what I had briefly learned in high school. Pretty much only grasped the concept that if a person eats too much, they'll gain weight. I was very active and could eat what I wanted for lunch, dinner and evening snacks. This worked for me - until it didn't.
Then real life kicked in. I was a lot more sedentary. Had a child, broke a leg and an ankle on two separate occasions. Also found out I was hypothyroid (Hashimoto's) which took a long time to get under control. Then came menopause. Long story short? At age 60, I found myself 60 lbs overweight - all while still eating only two meals a day. Bear in mind that this weight increase occurred very gradually - literally over the course of about 30 years. It wasn't like I was suddenly strapping on the ol' food bag or gorging myself at all-you-can-eat buffets or anything! That's literally just a weight gain of a pretty insignificant average of 2lbs per year. But it sure added up!
On my 60th birthday, I decided it was time to do something about it. I wanted to start by losing the initial 60 lbs - one for each year. I signed up here at MFP, read the forums, learned about the importance of calories (CICO!) and bought a food scale. I'm still very grateful to the many members who took the time to share their knowledge and info with a complete dieting noob like me. Yup, I'd never been on a diet my entire life.
Long story short(er) - I reached my initial goal and went on to lose a total of 75 lbs, while still doing Intermittent Fasting the entire time. The only difference? I now knew how many calories I was eating, and made gradual downward (and sustainable!) adjustments. Also upped the ante on the other side of the equation by getting more active. I've now been in maintenance for 3 years.
Tl;dr? Intermittent Fasting can be a helpful tool for some people, but calories are always king.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »Then there are those of us that are not looking for any other possibilities other than a way to control our eating. If IF/TRE/Skipping Breakfast/Whatever helps us...that is good enough. I really don't care if others approve or not...just doesn't matter to me.
If a day comes when my eating plan stops working for me then I will back up and find another way.
I don't eat breakfast because I'm rarely hungry in the morning. I've always been this way, even as a child.
@snickerscharlie Thanks for your reply.
I have always been the same about breakfast. Actually I feel better when I don't eat until later in the morning.
I was never obese nor skinny during childhood or young adulthood. There was only one time that anyone ever considered me too thin. I was a young single mom trying my best to work enough to provide for myself and a newborn and just literally didn't have time to eat or I was just too tired. Finally the HR department at work called me in and was concerned about me. I hadn't even realize that I lost that much weight. I was at 130lbs which is by no means too thin for most people but with my body composition and bone structure it was too thin for me.
I started gaining weight after my husband took his own life. I was diagnosed with ptsd afterwards but I was too busy trying to make sure that my kids were okay that I didn't take time to focus on me. A few years later I looked down and saw someone that wasn't me...I had gained weight and a lot of it. I also came to the realization that I had become an emotional binge eater. I also realized that I had started eating breakfast and the eating continued until I went to bed.
Early in the grief process my doctor gave me sleeping pills since I also wasn't sleeping...I experienced sleep walking eating and ended up going off the sleeping pills and just dealt with the lack of sleep. Long story short...my life had turned into an out of control mess. It took me many years to get to the point that I wanted to take my life back.
When I first joined MFP I did the count calories, weigh everything and moved more. I lost about 75lbs...almost to my goal weight. Things were looking great...so I thought. I got up one morning and looked at my kitchen scale...I just couldn't do it...I was back to where I started...an out of control mess. I just gave up. I gained almost all of my weight back in less than two years.
So this time around I use portion control. I don't weigh and measure everything that goes in my mouth(to be honest...hardly anything). I keep an eating journal with only estimated calories. I set up an eating schedule that works for me. I don't eat until about 11-12 in the morning and I stop at 7pm. I eat an afternoon snack that is usually yogurt and/or fruit. On occasion I go out to eat...I love a good burger! I also have pizza from time to time. I am not allowing my life to stop just because I need to lose some weight. I have managed so far to lose almost 40lbs...the binging is under control To add...I also won't live by starving myself or missing out on family time with my son. We enjoy going out to eat breakfast together on occasion and I won't ask him to wait until lunch time to go get donuts and coffee. Yes...I eat donuts.
My journey while it includes weight loss is about so much more. I spent too many years buried in my emotions and only existing. At my age (67) I want to live whatever time I have left...that doesn't include starving nor eating food that doesn't taste good.
Sorry this was long but most of the time these IFing threads turn into debates instead of why some chose to follow a WOE. The OP usually disappears at some point and I often wonder if they got anything useful out of it. I just wanted to express one person's "WHY".
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@Annie_01 - Figuring out the why and then finding the best/easiest way to achieve weight management goals is definitely the key to success.
Thanks for sharing your painfully difficult story. I hope it helps people realize that we're all on the same road.
We just might be driving different vehicles.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »@Annie_01 - Figuring out the why and then finding the best/easiest way to achieve weight management goals is definitely the key to success.
Agree with this. I'd note that this is often why there is perceived (not real) pushback on these threads. Those of us saying that there are alternatives to IF and that you shouldn't feel bad if it's not right for you or if you like another way of eating better are simply saying that finding out the why and best/easiest way to eat to achieve goals is helpful and an individual process. There is no need to try to fit an IF window if that's not what helps you, but if it is that's great (whether one likes using the fancy name or not). Sadly, because it's now a fad the threads tend to turn into "it's the best thing ever and everyone should do it" vs. not. When people say "it's about finding a schedule that works for you and figure out what's easiest for you" vs. "if you don't do it, you clearly don't care about learning discipline" or what not, there's no debate and no pushback at all.5 -
raven56706 wrote: »What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
No magic. As it stands at the moment in relation to what we know right now it's just an eating pattern.3 -
My biggest personal takeaway from fasting, is, that I no longer need to go to work with a cooler bag filled with food for the day...4
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In the 'guess your age thread' I'm being pegged as 8-12 years younger than I am. Been doing IF for 2.5 years now.3
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In the 'guess your age thread' I'm being pegged as 8-12 years younger than I am. Been doing IF for 2.5 years now.
I've been 30 and carded to buy cigarettes while in the store with my then 4 year old.
I've had multiple occasions of people thinking my 12 and 11 year old sons with me are my siblings, including by a waitress on Father's Day, and by a bakery working at the local bakery I take the boys to about once a week. And I have to keep from eye-rolling sometimes when I hear or read the word autophagy.11 -
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5
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no.
i graze all day. i'm 37, and i've been asked recently if i'm old enough to drink.
genes. good genes12 -
no.
i graze all day. i'm 37, and i've been asked recently if i'm old enough to drink.
genes. good genes
Apparently raw vegan diets do it as well. I'm not raw vegan but I do do IF 5 days a week.0 -
no.
i graze all day. i'm 37, and i've been asked recently if i'm old enough to drink.
genes. good genes
Apparently raw vegan diets do it as well. I'm not raw vegan but I do do IF 5 days a week.
I'm really getting my ab workout in this morning 9
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