Why We Get Fat - G. Taubes

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  • writtenINthestars
    writtenINthestars Posts: 1,933 Member
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    I'm totally sitting in for this one...
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    No, I'm not questioning the laws of thermodynamics, but our bodies are far from being closed systems. Hormones control how much energy our bodies use (calories out), and also control our appetite (calories in).

    ah, but he states that it is insulin that is controlling how much energy we use and how much is stored as fat, yet proposes eating a high protein/fat diet, which is odd since protein is highly insulingenic, so if he wanted to prevent spikes in insulin, he should have said to stay away from protein as well. Also if you read the studies i've posted above it totally debunks his theory on insulin, fat loss/gain. Which is par for him, cherry picking science to fit his agenda
  • lockef
    lockef Posts: 466
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    I'm not sure you understand either the term "ad hominem" or the discussion at hand. "The laws of physics don't apply" is an unambiguous statement. It means that the idea that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" no longer applies in Taubes' world (think of the "magic grits" in My Cousin Vinny). That's absolute nonsense--anyone who would say such a thing is either ignorant or cynically manipulative. In either case, they have no credibility. Nothing they say can be trusted and any "accurate" statements they might make are more random chance than anything else.

    Your statements about BMR and your explanation of why low carb diets might be effective have nothing to do with the initial statement I cited. In fact, they support my position.

    If someone loses weight on a low carb diet because, according to your theory, they eat considerable (sic) amount less, that is fully consistent with the concept of "calories in/calories out". As are variations in BMR.

    The topic is not: can low carb eating plans be effective. It's about the credibility of Taubes. . Those are completely different topics.

    You're taking "The laws of physics don't apply" out of context. He means in regards to why people are getting fatter. I don't think you should disregard his whole book based on this one statement, but ok.
    ah, but he states that it is insulin that is controlling how much energy we use and how much is stored as fat, yet proposes eating a high protein/fat diet, which is odd since protein is highly insulingenic, so if he wanted to prevent spikes in insulin, he should have said to stay away from protein as well. Also if you read the studies i've posted above it totally debunks his theory on insulin, fat loss/gain. Which is par for him, cherry picking science to fit his agenda

    No... he promotes high fat/ moderate protein/ low carb. Insulin does control the amount of fat we store, and even supresses the use of fat for energy. Without carbohydrates in the blood, the body is put into a state of ketosis, and uses fat as the main source of energy.
  • nibblerbigcat
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    I think the most important thing to remember is that losing weight is pretty simple... calories in, versus calories out and a deficit will lead to weight loss. People get too hung up on trying to eat the "right" things for weight loss, when everyone should just focus on eating food that was naturally grown on earth and stop eating cheetos.

    With that said, I did read part of that book; however, I didn't finish it. I stopped reading it when he suggested that excercise only lead to being hungry and eating more. Excercise is not only for weight loss! It has many cardiovascular benefits well!

    It's an interesting read but I wouldn't take it TOO seriously.

    There's so many books out there, like the Paleo diet which claim eating like we did in the Stone Age is going to solve all of our problems. Today is a different world, and the food is nutritionally different, and there is no possible way to eat like how our ancestors did.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    No... he promotes high fat/ moderate protein/ low carb. Insulin does control the amount of fat we store, and even supresses the use of fat for energy. Without carbohydrates in the blood, the body is put into a state of ketosis, and uses fat as the main source of energy.

    insulin does indeed play a role in fat storage, but it is neither the only or most important hormone to do so, that would be acylation stimulation protein, whose levels can increase without an increase in insulin.

    his main point is to avoid CHO because CHO spikes insulin and insulin makes us fat, which is sort of true, but avoids the fact that protein spikes insulin as well and you can store fat without spikes in insulin. again the studies i posted showed that preventing spikes in insulin vs a control group lead to no greater increase in weight loss.

    in fact there are no real controlled studies that show there is a metabolic advantage to ketogenic diets ie. weight loss is the same in controlled situations regardless of CHO intake
  • lennykat
    lennykat Posts: 89
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    I by no means am an expert on fat/weight loss. Nor am I a physician. But and it's a big BUT-- one thing that is possibly overlooked in many of these theories is the complexity of the digestive system.

    Take, for instance, a person who is diagnosed with adult onset Celiac disease (auto immune response to gluten) realize that 39% of these patients are overweight-- more so --30% of those are morbidly obese.

    The theory behind their weight increase is a malabsorbtion issue due to "gut deficiency" in this case the inability for their bodies to properly use grains. When these people eat something with a gluten sensitive stomach their bowels fill with water --hence the auto immune response-- therefore the vitamins and minerals derived from other foods are washed away resulting in deficiencies. Then their bodies "hold on" to everything-- even th bad stuff- in order to leech out what it can resulting in overweight. Yes, a side effect of this/these disease is weight loss over time but by the time that happens they are so ill (villi atrophy) medical intervention is a must.

    Other "gut sensitivities" that involve malnutrition and deficiencies due to food include:

    B-12 anemia (found in many alchoholics)
    Ulcerative Colitis
    Chron's Disease
    Lactose Intolerence
    Irritable Bowel Disease
    H Pylori Ulcers
    Gall Bladder Disease

    So for some where cutting out carbs works: does cutting out grains make you feel better (gluten/celiac disease)?
    Others its dairy: does eating no cheese/milk make you feel better? (lactose intolerence)
    High protein: cutting out meat make you fell better (gall bladder disease)


    you get the idea.

    edited to add: I'm just saying this might be the reason why low carb works for some not others, low fat for some not others etc. I think it's just something that shouldn't be overlooked when these "scientists" do their studies.
  • bassettpig
    bassettpig Posts: 79 Member
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    I do low carbs and find this site extremely useful! (Note, I don't want to discuss my diet and all the arguments for and a against low carbing. I am not "no" carbing and it's working for me. Just wanted to comment that the site is relevant for anyone who is wanting to track some portion of their nutritional breakdown. It's part of what I love about MFP, I can adjust the settings to reflect what I need to do and it shouldn't effect your plan.)

    I have read both of Mr. Taubes' books and spent a ton of time on various sites/forums (Mark's Daily Apple, PaleoHacks, etc.). What it boils down to for me is that while I did in fact lose almost 60 lbs starting 7 years ago using the standard percentages of calories from fat, protein and carbs, I have been slowly but steadily regaining it over the last 3 years, in spite of exercising more and more and removing more and more processed crap from my diet. What gives? A marathon runner who eats healthy whole grains, low fat, etc., and I SIMPLY CANNOT KEEP THE FRICKING WEIGHT OFF! Something is wrong w/this picture.

    I have gradually been working into a Primal/Paleo way of eating w/much lower carbs, no grains of any kind, and while my weight loss is slow (but at least not continuously gaining), I have been able to cut my dose of thyroid medications (I am hypothyroid) from 150 mcg a day to 45 mcg a day. I am sleeping much better and I feel better when I exercise. My mood is more stable, too (I am a 51-year-old woman, so I have various hormonal things going on at this point). Perhaps most importantly, I am CONTENT w/the calories I eat. When I was eating the higher percentage of carbs that athletes are "supposed" to eat, I honestly would feel hungrier after a meal than I was before I ate! How crazy is that?

    I would certainly never say that this is the ONLY way and everyone should eat this way, but for me, it's working. I will continue to work with it and tweak it, but this is the first ray of hope I've had in the last few years, so I figure it's worth a try. Been there, done fat, NOT going back!

    Edited to add: In no way does this make the site irrelevant. I have found that overeating will make me gain weight, no matter WHAT I eat. The point, for me, of eating this way is that I can eat fewer calories, be satisfied, slowly lose weight and have markers of my general health increase (less need for thyroid replacement, better sleep, etc.) where the same number of calories in a more conventional distribution would leave me hungry, prone to binge, and result in no weight loss even if I managed to "be good." I still need to watch proportions of fat, protein and carbs as well as overall calories, hence I use the site.
  • Frankenbarbie01
    Frankenbarbie01 Posts: 432 Member
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    *takes front row seat for fireworks*

    Save me a spot!

    Ditto!! =)

    I know very little about nutrition, but I know how I FEEL. I have lost and gained many pounds on different eating plans. Currently am trying to eat paleo/Primal (mostly) and have lost 9 of my total 12 lbs since doing this. For months I would calculate calories and fat but always felt exhausted. Was running my *kitten* off and didnt lose an ounce! So I ditched grains, restric my carbs but still kept around 1200 calories, plus what I earned by working out.
    I have more energy and just feel better when I eat nutrient dense/rich foods. Dark leafy greens, bright vegtables all FRESH (the little orange and green things in a lean cuisine box dont count to me as vegtables) whole fresh eggs, wild game (moose, deer, bear harvested by yours truly) nuts and seeds, seasonal fruit. I avoid grains like rice, wheat, oats because they make me FEEL sluggish and crappy. Plus they are way higher in calories with less nutrition than other choices I can make. This may not be appropriate for other peoples goals BUT........this works for me =)
  • Silverkittycat
    Silverkittycat Posts: 1,997 Member
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    Gary Taubes: The conventional wisdom both in the medical community and among the rest of us is that we get fat because we consume more calories than we expend. We overeat, in a word, or we’re too sedentary. And so it’s all about energy consumed and expended. But, as I describe in GC, BC and argue, forcefully, I hope, in Why We Get Fat, this calories–in/calories–out idea fails to explain some of the critical observations in the field. Men and women fatten differently, for instance. So they both have to be taking in more calories than they expend — that’s just the laws of thermodynamics, which always hold. But that fact tells us absolutely nothing about why the fat goes to different places on different sexes. Obesity and overweight have a strong genetic component — body types tend to run in families, not just hair and eye color and facial features. So the question becomes, what are these genes determining? How much we want to eat and exercise, or how much and where we store fat on our bodies? Prior to World War II, as I discuss in the book, European researchers and clinical investigators would define obesity not as a disorder of energy balance, as virtually everyone does today, but as a disorder of excess fat accumulation, which is the simplest possible thing you can say about the condition. And that leads you to ask the simple question, what regulates fat accumulation? The argument I’m making in the book, in a nutshell, is that obesity and overweight are disorders in the hormonal and enzymatic regulation of fat tissue.

    and from page 97 of Why We Get Fat -
    Whatever makes us both fatter and heavier will also make us overeat. This law is one fact we can count on from the first law of thermodynamics, the law of energy conservation, which health experts have been so determined to misapply. Anything that increases its mass, for whatever reason, will take in more energy than it expends. So, if a regulatory defect makes us both fatter and heavier, it is guaranteed to make us consume more calories (and so increase our appetite) and/or expend less than would be the case if this regulation was working perfectly.

    I think Taubes has done a great job at presenting his research. I don't think he's trying to tell you "what" to think, he's just asking you to think.
    I've never read anything indicating that he believes there is one diet that works for everyone, but I have read and seen him say numerous times "Not all of us get fat eating carbohydrates".

    Don't want to jump in to the argument, just post a few of his words to hopefully clear up some of the confusion on his view of the
    laws of thermodynamics.

    :smile:
  • bassettpig
    bassettpig Posts: 79 Member
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    I think Taubes has done a great job at presenting his research. I don't think he's trying to tell you "what" to think, he's just asking you to think.

    Well done, and I think what you said right here about "asking you to think" is really key.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    I think Taubes has done a great job at presenting his research. I don't think he's trying to tell you "what" to think, he's just asking you to think.

    I've never read anything indicating that he believes there is one diet that works for everyone, but I have read and seen him say numerous times "Not all of us get fat eating carbohydrates".


    While i think he's a talented writer, he slanted his research and cherry picked studies. Then he proceeds to make ridiculous statements like;

    ""If you restrict only carbohydra­tes, you can always eat more protein and fat if you feel the urge, since they have no effect on fat accumulati­on"

    Location 2519 Kindle edition of Why We Get Fat

    "But protein and fat don't make us fat-only the carbohydra­tes do-so there is no reason to curtail them in any way"

    location 3064 Why we Get Fat

    and why does he say only CHO makes us fat? because it spikes insulin, as if protein doesn't do the exact same thing
  • Justkeepswimmin
    Justkeepswimmin Posts: 777 Member
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    I'd break out the pop corn, but I don't have the calories for the butter to make it taste awesome....sooo...sipping water in amusement ....
  • angiolm
    angiolm Posts: 52
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    When he says that the calories in/calories out model doesn't work is like saying "you can't see the forest for the trees" (don't focus on the details). Animals that are lean in nature, aren't lean because they count calories. My dog never gets fat. It's not from lack of food, her dish is always full. They eat when they're hungry, and stop when they're full. Shouldn't it be the same with humans?

    YES!
  • Silverkittycat
    Silverkittycat Posts: 1,997 Member
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    Acg67, we can both spend all day pulling published studies that prove the other wrong, but why? Don't we both agree that there is no "one size fits all" diet and lifestyle to suit us all?

    I'd much rather be happy than right. :flowerforyou:




    Here's a decent attempt at reconciling two opposing theories by Todd Becker. I really enjoy his approach and thoughtfulness in forming his opinions. http://gettingstronger.org/2011/02/does-insulin-make-you-fat/
    Does insulin make you fat?

    55 Comments Tags: ASP, carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis, CarbSane, fat loss, HSL, insulin, insulin resistance, insulin sensitivity, intermittent fasting, Kitavans, Krieger, low carbohydrate, LPL, obesity, Okinawans, Taubes, weight loss
    Posted 03 Feb 2011


    Whether or not insulin is to blame for the obesity epidemic is one of the hot questions being debated on heath and diet blogs. On the surface, this seems like an arcane question that would mainly interest physiologists and diet researchers. After all, who really cares about the underlying mechanisms of fat storage and release? Most of us just want to know some practical steps we can take to lose excess weight and keep it off and, beyond that, to stay healthy.

    It seems like a simple yes-or-no question of fact that you could settle by studying populations and doing lab studies. But it’s not so much a question about facts as one about causation. Questions of causation are often the thorniest ones. This particular question has taken on almost political or religious overtones, provoking emotion and acrimony in the diet blogosphere. On one side are defenders of the Carbohydrate/Insulin Hypothesis, like Gary Taubes and Michael Eades. This is laid out in detail in Taubes’ book Good Calories, Bad Calories (2007), and more compactly in “Why We Get Fat: And What To Do About It” (2010). On the other side are opponents such as James Krieger and CarbSane, who find the Carbohydrate/Insulin Hypothesis to be oversimplified and deeply flawed, citing recent scientific advances. People tend to chose up sides in this debate. I’ve been participating in this debate myself (while still learning a lot) on the websites of Jimmy Moore, James Krieger, and CarbSane. I won’t rehash all the technical details here. Instead, I’d like to propose a “frameshift” that recognizes and integrates the strong points from each side, attempting to overcome their shortcomings.

    First, here’s an overview of what each side has to say:

    Proponents of the Carbohydrate/Insulin Hypothesis, as articulated by Taubes, posit four main points:

    Obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation, not voluntary overeating or inactivity, caused by an imbalance in hormonal regulation of adipose tissue and fat metabolism.
    Insulin is the primary regulator of fat storage. When insulin levels are elevated–either chronically or after a meal–we accumulate fat in adopose tissue. When insulin levels fall, we release fat and oxidize it for fuel.
    Elevated blood insulin levels increase hunger and the drive to eat, while decreasing energy expenditure and activity
    By stimulating insulin secretion, carbohydrates make us fat and ultimately cause obesity
    In short: Carbohydrates drives insulin, which drives fat.

    Opponents of the Carbohydrate Hypothesis challenge each of the above points. I’ve paraphrased four main counterpoints here:

    Fat accumulation and obesity result from positive caloric balance (more calories consumed than expended), without regard to the macronutrient class of calorie (carbohydrate, protein, or fat).
    Your body can store fat even when insulin is low, via the action of the hormone ASP (acylation stimulating protein)
    Insulin doesn’t make you hungry; rather, it suppresses appetite. (The critics proffer that low carb diets may work because protein is more satiating than carbohydrates, but they merely report this observation and don’t attempt to explain it).
    Carbohydrate doesn’t uniquely stimulate insulin; many proteins are equally or more insulinogenic.
    In short: Calories in minus calories out drives fat.

    On the surface of it, these two models of fat metabolism appear to be diametrically opposed. But are they really? There is at least one large point on which both sides appear to agree:

    Obesity, particularly of the abdominal type, is associated with insulin resistance.

    What that means is that people with abdominal obesity (the characteristic “apple” or pot belly shape, rather than those with “pear” shaped backsides or extra subcutaneous fat) tend to secrete more insulin after eating and have high basal insulin levels, ultimately leading to elevated blood glucose, triglycerides, elevated blood pressure, unfavorable cholesterol ratios, and a host of other issues associated with metabolic syndrome or “Syndrome X”. Nobody seems to deny this. Sometimes leptin resistance is also cited as an independent or alternative marker of obesity. But I’ll focus here primarily on insulin resistance, because it seems to be more closely involved with regulation of nutrient partitioning than is leptin.

    Where the two sides disagree, however, is on the causal chain behind the association between obesity and insulin resistance. Advocates of the carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis tend to arrange the causal the order, from causes to effects, as:

    carbohydrates > insulin spikes > hyperinsulinemia > insulin resistance > obesity

    Whereas Krieger and CarbSane argue that the order of causality should be:

    positive caloric balance > obesity > insulin resistance > hyerinsulinemia

    When you look more deeply, however, there is acknoweldgement on both sides that insulin resistance is not a simple monocausal condition, but is likely multifactorial. There is evidence of many contributing factors, including:

    specific dietary components: fructose, sucrose, saturated fats, gluten, lectins, dairy, allergens
    micronutrient deficiencies: vitamin D, magnesium, omega-3 fatty acids
    metabolites: triglycerides, free fatty acids (“FFA”, also called non-esterified fatty acids or “NEFA”)
    inflammatory conditions
    lack of physical activity and exercise (particularly strenuous exercise)
    genetics
    There is as yet no broad scientific consensus as to the relative importance of each of these factors in causing insulin resistance. But it is almost certain that there is no single cause. Regardless of the cause, however, it is important to understand what insulin resistance is on a cellular level: a reduction in the number and sensitivity of insulin receptors, such as GLUT4 receptors. Different tissues can experience different degrees of insulin resistance. Typically, muscle tissues are the first to become insulin resistance and fat tissue is one of the last. Insulin resistance in different organs like the brain or the skin can have different effects. Some have argued that certain pathologies such as Alzheimer’s disease and acne are associated with organ-specific insulin resistance. I’ve proposed elsewhere on this blog (“Change your receptors, change your set point“) that receptor number and sensitivity can serve as a kind of dynamic “set point” for weight and other physiogical states governed by hormone-receptor and neurotransmitter-receptor balances.

    So here is where I think that a frameshift in the debate about insulin can reconcile the two sides, at least in good measure:

    Insulin resistant (IR) individuals respond in a qualititatively different way to carbohydrates and fats in their diet.

    Let’s see what that means specifically:

    First, consider insulin resistant (IR) individuals, regardless of how they got that way. IR individuals have elevated basal insulin levels, usually defined as a fasting insulin of at least 15 μIU/mL, or perhaps higher. If you have a protruding belly, high triglycerides and a high blood pressure, you are probably in this category. Under these conditions, dietary carbohydrate, and to a lesser extent protein, add fuel to the fire by spiking an already elevated insulin level. And let us grant here the point of Krieger and CarbSane that ASP is a potent faciliator of fat storage. It is known than insulin significantly enhances the action of ASP. In addition, insulin upregulates lipoprotein lipase (LPL) a fat-storage promoting enzyme and inhibits the action of hormone sensitive lipase (HSL) an enzyme that favors hydrolysis of stored lipids to free fatty acids. Combine all three effects and we should expect that IR individuals store dietary fat easily, even with moderately low carbohydrate diets.

    For these individuals, the elevated levels of basal insulin will tend to shift the balance of glucose and fatty acids from the blood stream into the tissues. (Krieger and CarbSane are correct that insulin may not play a big direct role in driving fat sequestration, but its indirect stimulatory effects on ASP and LPL and inhibitory effect on HSL are quite significant, reducing the concentration of fatty acids in the blood stream by shifting the equilibrium towards the adipocytes). This will also tend to stimulate appetite and eating, leading to more fat storage and a worsening IR condition. Sugarholics and those with carbohydrate cravings tend to be insulin resistant. Appetite has a large conditioned component, whereby preprandial levels of insulin, ghrelin, and other hormones are secreted based upon temporal cues and specific sensory cues. It has been found that this pre-prandial secretion is much more pronounced in overweight, IR individuals.

    One of the best ways to break this cycle is to go on a very low carbohydrate diet, something like the Atkins induction diet. Since there is no insulin response to dietary fat, a high fat, very low carb, moderate protein diet will allow basal insulin level to gradually drift down. This will shift the balance, reducing (but not eliminating) the actions of ASP and LPL, and disinhibiting the action of HSL. This will increase release of glucose and fatty acids, supplying energy and providing satiety, further lessening the drive to eat. The vicious cycle is replaced by a virtuous one. Unfortunately, a reduced calorie, high carb diet will not work for IR individuals, because their appetite is so easily triggered by any increase in insulin, which leads to a faster than normal drop in blood glucose. Note that blood glucose does not have to be “low” to induce hunger. There is evidence that hunger is triggered merely by a rapid drop in glucose levels. On the Deconditioning Diet page of this blog, I describe a method for extinguishing this conditioned pre-prandial insulin response.

    Claims that insulin suppresses appetite is based on studies involving central administration of insulin while artificially infusing glucose. Krieger is correct about the “central” effect of insulin within the hypothalamus and upon the vagal afferent fibers. However, as with many hormones, insulin can have opposing effects at different locations and times. We need to consider the important appetite-inducing effect of insulin secreted into the “periphery”, without the simultaneous supplementation of glucose or other nutrients. This is a particular issue for IR individuals who are vulnerable to insulin-induced cravings, and less of an issue for those with good blood sugar control.

    Now let’s consider insulin sensitive (IS) individuals. These are people with less than 10 μIU/mL, ideally less than 5 μIU/mL insulin. The situation is quite different for these folks. As a result of much lower basal insulin levels, they have more stable blood glucose and fatty acid levels, because the lower insulin levels reduce inhibition of glucose and fatty acid release from glycogen and adipose tissue. So IS individuals are less prone to hunger cravings, because they can access their own energy stores more easily. They are much better able to tolerate higher levels of carbohydrate in the diet, because their insulin response is well controlled and glucose readily gets to the cells and brain after eating.

    This may also provide a plausible explanation for why certain populations such as the Okinawans, the Kitavans, and other cultures remain lean on a relatively high carbohydrate diet: their low basal insulin levels and high insulin sensitivity permit them to handle carbohydrates easily. According to Stephan Guyunet’s Whole Health Source blog:

    Grains, refined sugar, vegetable oils and other processed foods are virtually nonexistent on Kitava. They get an estimated 69% of their calories from carbohydrate, 21% from fat, 17% from saturated fat and 10% from protein. Most of their fat intake is saturated because it comes from coconuts. They have an omega-6 : omega-3 ratio of approximately 1:2. Average caloric intake is 2,200 calories per day (9,200 kJ). By Western standards, their diet is high in carbohydrate, high in saturated fat, low in total fat, a bit low in protein and high in calories.

    While this is a “high carbohydrate” diet, the carbohydrates are not typical western foods: The Kitavan diet consists mainly of foods like tubers, fruit, coconut, fish and vegetables. Even with the high carbohydrate levels, their insulin levels are much lower than that of typical Westerners. One could argue that these foods have low levels of fructose and sugars, and are generally quite non-inflammatory, so they should promote insulin sensitivity. According to Lindeberg, their fasting insulin levels averaged 3.12 and 3.29 IU/ml for males and females, respectively. This is about half the basal insulin levels of Swedes: 6.98 and 6.65 IU/ml for males and females, respectively. Fasting blood glucose levels for the Kitavan’s were about 27% lower than that of the Swedes.

    Furthermore, IS individuals should be able to lose fat quite easily by restricting carbohydrate, intermittent fasting and/or exercise. With resulting very low basal insulin levels, it should be even easier to release fat from adipose tissue and oxidize it for energy, or to go into ketosis. It is known that Type 1 diabetics, who have no insulin, shed fat readily and have trouble holding onto it without injections. But someone with low basal insulin can achieve a naturally lean state easily, while also being able to handle insulinogenic meals without difficulty. Based on my own experience over time, as my fasting insulin level has dropped, intermittent fasting and even fasted workouts become easy, and this does not preclude a reasonable level of carbohydrates in my diet.

    Now let’s ask the question of whether insulin sensitive (IS) individuals can accumulate body fat on a high-fat, low carb diet. According to Krieger and CarbSane, this should be no more difficult than on a high-carb diet. You just have to eat a “caloric surplus” of fat, with no or little carbohydrate, and ASP will do the job, even without insulin. But will this really have the predicted effect? Without doing the study, it is hard to know for sure. But my prediction would be that it is unlikely to play out as they suggest, for several reasons:

    Despite the claims that ASP works without any insulin, the primary sources don’t show this. For example in the paper by Saleh et al., which CarbSane cites in support, there is still some insulin and carbohydrate present to stimulate ASP, with or without the action of chylomicrons.
    Even assuming that the ASP could drive fat accumulation without insulin present, the lack of insulin would also favor downregulation of LPL and activation of HSL, which will tend to balance ASP’s action by liberating fatty acids from the adipocyte.
    Under low insulin conditions, even with excess fatty acids being fixed within the adipocytes, one would expect a reasonably high equilibrium level of free fatty acids in the blood stream. This would favor satiety, so that eating the fat meal would be self-limiting. This contrasts with the action of insulin which, when elevated, will tend to deplete the blood stream of glucose and fatty acids.
    I will conclude with the following synthesis between the above opposing positions:

    Obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation resulting from insulin resistance (and leptin resistance), which stimulates appetite and naturally leads to caloric imbalance, including overconsumption of both carbohydrates and fats.
    Insulin and ASP together regulate fat storage and release. While ASP acts directly to transport and fix fatty acids within fat cells, insulin acts to induce fat storage via ASP and LPL, and to inhibit fat release via HSL and epinephrine and norepinephrine. Reduced levels of both insulin and ASP favor lipolysis and fat loss. The synergy of insulin and ASP further explain why the combination of dietary carbohydrate and fat is particularly fattening.
    In insulin resistant individuals, elevated blood insulin levels stimulate hunger and the drive to eat; this effect is largely absent for insulin senstive individuals due to superior blood glucose control
    In insulin resistant individuals, the pancreas compensates for reduced receptor sensitivity by secreting more insulin, leading to hyperinsulinemia.
    So the answer to the question is to shift the blame from the hormone insulin to the condition of the insulin receptors. Insulin spikes at meal time are no problem, so long as basal insulin remains low. Restriction of dietary carbohydrate is one very effective strategy, which should be chosen not for the short term benefits in weight loss, so much as the longer term benefits in improving insulin sensitivity and reducing basal insulin. With the focus on “regrowing” and “reconditioning” insulin receptors, we should look at the full arsenal of tools, including intermittent fasting, nutrients such as vitamin D, magnesium and fish oil, and high intensity interval training.

    Let me emphasize here that my proposed explanation is meant as a tentative conceptual framework rather than a conclusive scientific analysis. I’m still learning about the details and I fully expect that our understanding of the underlying mechanisms of fat metabolism will continue to be revised and evolve. But I do think that there has been too much emphasis placed on hormones and neurotransmitters, which fluctuate every day, and not enough on receptor health, which is something we can can influence over the long term by commitment to scientifically informed practices.

    His site usually contains many interesting comments from readers if you're interested.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Acg67, we can both spend all day pulling published studies that prove the other wrong, but why? Don't we both agree that there is no "one size fits all" diet and lifestyle to suit us all?

    I'd much rather be happy than right. :flowerforyou:


    that was an interesting read, thanks for posting it.

    while there is no one size fits all diet per say, they all work because of a caloric deficit. It doesn't matter how you arrive at it, be it cutting carbs, exercising more etc, that is how everyone loses weight, short of surgery. To single out a single macronutrient and blame that for obesity is ridiculous.

    I have no issues with ketogenic/low carb diets, it's only when it's adherents start proclaiming it is the best or only way to lose weight do i take issue with it
  • Silverkittycat
    Silverkittycat Posts: 1,997 Member
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    I have no issues with ketogenic/low carb diets, it's only when it's adherents start proclaiming it is the best or only way to lose weight do i take issue with it

    yeah, it can be annoying, at best.:wink: So many members attacking each other's beliefs. I'd like to think they're so passionate about it because they found something that works well for themselves, and want to share it.



    I'm glad you found the Getting Stronger post interesting! There's some good stuff on that site. :smile:
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    I'd like to think they're so passionate about it because they found something that works well for themselves, and want to share it.

    that's all well and good but they should not be ignorant of basic nutritional facts
  • mtnultra
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    I have no issues with ketogenic/low carb diets, it's only when it's adherents start proclaiming it is the best or only way to lose weight do i take issue with it

    So, what you really have a problem with is other people's opinions.
  • poedunk65
    poedunk65 Posts: 1,336 Member
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    Simplest answer is calories vs. calories out. that's it. eat less cals and exercise or get fat.:drinker:
  • PJilly
    PJilly Posts: 21,732 Member
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    Going through this book now. Have already read Good Calories / Bad Calories.

    If you believe what he has researched and argues........it makes a big part of this site irrelevant.

    Agree?

    Conversely, if you believe in this site and how it works (and I do), it makes a big part of what Taubes writes irrelevant. :wink: