Slowly increasing deadlifts

happysquatter
happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
I’m doing a linear progression adding 5 to my squat every workout and had been doing clean deadlifts (not clean pulls) alongside it progressing at roughly the same increase.

Obviously my clean deadlift was with lower weight than my actual deadlift but I’m going back to conventional for the next 12 weeks.

I am restarting my conv. deadlifts at the same weight and sets/reps as my clean deadlift but will jump weights by a larger increment vs the squat (10) until such time that my recovery no longer outpaces frequency then I’ll drop sets. I imagine by then my deadlift will be back to a normal ratio vs the squat. I’m taking this slow approach because I high bar, not low bar.

My question: is my programming sound?

I squatted 185 and clean deadlifted 205 two workouts ago. I squatted 195 and conventional deadlifted 205 today. All at 3x5.

Squats are usually RPE 7.5, maybe 8.5 on the last rep set. Deadlift today felt RPE 7

Thanks

Replies

  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    How long ago did you perform conventionals and at what frequency? Length of block and how was your progress throughout?

    It would extremely helpful if you could post your current weekly basic template of CleanDL/Sq and proposed DL/Sq along with days of week training/rest.

    Two things I like to mention that I feel is important to address.

    1. Unless you were competing in a one lift only competition, I wouldn't concern myself greatly comparing the ratio increase of your squat vs any deadlift. Although the stress of each lift can and will effect one another. The ratio increase between the two lifts really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. If they both are progressing....great! If one is stalling we can adjust and get it moving.
    2. Low bar doesn't trump high bar confidently. It has more to do with the individual, programming response, and amount of practice. I know very strong high bar and low bar and in between of sorts :love: .
  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    October 24th was my last conv. deadlift. It was the last of 16 sessions spanning about 4 months. Training set was 1x5 weight going up 10 lbs a week. Frequency was roughly 1 a week.
    Progress was consistent, no failures. That last session of 1x5 was 210

    I then switched to a Clean deadlift block since then with sets of 3x5. Weight was deloaded to 185 and I did 5 sessions ending a week ago ending at 205. The deload might not have been necessary but I had deloaded my squat to deal with some ankle dorsiflexion causing lumbar flexion issues (fixed)

    Current is pasted as an image

    1. Ok thanks for that! In Starting Strength, the book tends to indicate at least a 25% difference of Deadlift over Squat but...
    2. Because I high bar, my PC doesn't get as much work vs low bar

    Hence this post and advice request..
    Other relevant info: I started weight training with less than 65lbs on all lifts as recovery from L5-S1 disc hernia and 'soccer knees' Those issues don't seem to be a factor anymore
    Thanks

    1tgmylp2d7y0.png


  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    Yes that looks reasonable if you are hitting RPE as you state and progress is had.

    I might suggest a few things.

    On week1 instead of taking the weight from CleanDL and transferring that specific number to conventionals, just do it as a RPE target. Target might be set 10% lower and if your first set is on the light side <RPE 7 than add appropriate weight.
    happysquatter wrote: »
    I am restarting my conv. deadlifts at the same weight and sets/reps as my clean deadlift but will jump weights by a larger increment vs the squat (10) until such time that my recovery no longer outpaces frequency then I’ll drop sets.
    I'm not sure what exactly you have in mind here. When the time comes and your recovery is lagging, I might consider adding a day in some cases and split the current volume or more than likely add a set with slightly less intensity and see how that goes. Keeping the expectations that we can no longer add weight to the barbell every session.

    I'm sure you know LP can't last forever and is suboptimal at some point without some adjustments that is no longer LP.

    Also just to note the majority of people have a stronger DL than their squat, but that doesn't mean you need to change programming so the ratio fits some "normal range".

    Example Ray Williams squatted about 1080lbs raw and about 875lbs deadlifting. He is still considered strong and I would not try to focus on seeing if his squat could be a better ratio...only if he could lift more as a total.

    One last thing. Starting strength has some excellent info and at the same time some of their content is unfounded and basis towards their line of thinking and dismisses current scientific evidence. My advice is to question everybody including myself.

    With the mention of the ratio(I don't recall the context from book or media offhand) I assure you it bears little to nothing on a individual basis and even less weight if we are adding weight on the barbell as a whole.

  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    Good point on taking the weight 10% lower. As it worked out as mentioned in my original post, the same weight was an RPE 7. Should I target it being lower?

    My rationale was that I can still benefit from LP for a while so for this coming 2 week cycle I add 10 to my Deadlifts. I think what will happen is by the third/fourth time I do this, that 3x5 for the same weight across will get harder to recover from. So then I would move to a 1x5 and keep everything else the same.

    But I like your suggestion to either split it or add a set at the same weight - bookmarking this as I think this might be the likely course of action

    For LP: Yes I know, I think I have maybe about a month or month and a half before something changes (program or nutrition)

    On the DL/Squat ratio, yes you're right. I suppose I could say that I know my PC doesn't get as much work and if it got the similar amount then my DL would be higher. It has generally been at least 15-20% higher for me. But it doesn't have to be, that is true

    There are a few things I disagree with with Starting Strength, especially his stance on high bar so yes, I take it with a grain of salt.

    Thank you for your help!



  • wiigelec
    wiigelec Posts: 503 Member
    https://startingstrength.com/training/artificially-weak-deadlifts-part-1-perception-vs-reality

    https://startingstrength.com/training/artificially-weak-deadlifts-part-2-the-arms
  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    wiigelec wrote: »
    https://startingstrength.com/training/artificially-weak-deadlifts-part-1-perception-vs-reality

    https://startingstrength.com/training/artificially-weak-deadlifts-part-2-the-arms

    Thanks for the links - they're not as applicable since this is more to do with deliberate programming change than a weakness that I've noticed (yet). Plus I high bar so the carry over is a little less.



  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    edited December 2019
    Targeting a tad lower is fine. When you get to your last warm up you'll have an idea where your at. Like I mentioned previously, after the first working set you can adjust intensity(if needed)and keep volume the same with no worries. Think of it as a rediscovery day.

    A option I will dose often is to perform a single around RPE 7.5-8 and mathematically adjust for the rep scheme you are working.

    As far as your thoughts on LP...I feel you have a really good grasp of the benefits and limits and nothing wrong with continuing on for the benefits you seek since you are not showing red flags.

    There are endless possibilities to increase the load progressively when intensity isn't the main variable.

    Keep utilizing the data from your training logs as a tool.

    I certainly encourage you to keep seeking ways to program your own templates. You appear to have a solid foundation of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of training.

    Feel free to bounce ideas off me as training continues. I'd love to hear about your progress and bumps and how you solved them.

  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    Ok yes I'll try the warmup to judge the ideal weight for my set rep scheme and I guess for a 3x5 rep scheme, I might try 90% of my 7.5-8 RPE top single?

    Thank you for the encouragement! I will certainly keep tinkering around on my own and will reach out periodically maybe just to update or ask about roadblocks I'm sure I'll encounter.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    happysquatter wrote: »
    Ok yes I'll try the warmup to judge the ideal weight for my set rep scheme and I guess for a 3x5 rep scheme, I might try 90% of my 7.5-8 RPE top single?

    Thank you for the encouragement! I will certainly keep tinkering around on my own and will reach out periodically maybe just to update or ask about roadblocks I'm sure I'll encounter.

    Peeling 12-14% off a RPE8 single would be reasonable for the majority of lifters to keep from overshpoting 3set 5rep volume session.

    There may be even more individual variance depending on how much exposure you have to singles.



  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    Ahh, ok got it. Thanks Chief
  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    Hey Chief - just to keep you posted (a few weeks late) but I ended the year very well!

    That 3 week period that we were discussing, I switched from a Clean deadlift to conv. and ended at 250 lbs. I hit a high bar squat of 225 and both could probably have been higher.

    I did not have any hiccups along the way (except lack of sleep, which is a constant problem)

    I'd love your thoughts on the stuff below:

    Currently, I'm coming off an effective 2-3 week involuntary deload due to flu and work. So it might be that my LP has a bit more to go seeing as I'm reducing down to about 15%-20% below my previous highs.

    My current plan is to do singles for each movement till I hit an RPE 7 then 1x5 at 20% of that. Do that for 2-3 sessions of that movement (maybe 2 weeks total integration cycle) then jump back on that program I posted up top (screen shot). I'm throwing in more mobility and core work than usual during this 'reintegration' period.

  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    happysquatter wrote: »
    I'd love your thoughts on the stuff below:

    Currently, I'm coming off an effective 2-3 week involuntary deload due to flu and work. So it might be that my LP has a bit more to go seeing as I'm reducing down to about 15%-20% below my previous highs.

    My current plan is to do singles for each movement till I hit an RPE 7 then 1x5 at 20% of that. Do that for 2-3 sessions of that movement (maybe 2 weeks total integration cycle) then jump back on that program I posted up top (screen shot). I'm throwing in more mobility and core work than usual during this 'reintegration' period.

    Sorry to hear about your sickness and work stresses.

    I'm not exactly sure what your plan is so I ask you...

    Are you are cutting volume down to one set of 5 across the board for each lift for that 1-2 week transition into your block?

    Mobility and core is really up to the individual. My thoughts is if we are talking mobility for a lift, e.g., squat depth, better positioning DL then more reps of the lift in question would be beneficial since it is specific to the lift and possible mobility issue.

    If you are speaking of just general mobility that you enjoy. I would dose it at the end of a session or designate specific general fitness day(s) which would include core work if that is easier template.
  • happysquatter
    happysquatter Posts: 91 Member
    Yes, I'm cutting volume 3x5 to 1x5 while keeping intensity about moderate for this block. My thinking is to give me about a week or two to adapt back, maybe identify if my time off has resulted in any odd issues.

    It's not so much that I enjoy mobility work (it's not bad) but that over time I realise these are often where my imbalances come up. For mobility, I'm doing more shoulder banded rotation, thoracic spine rolling, lat stretches (Front Squats) and some ankle stuff.

    I see what you're saying about more reps at lower intensities. That could be added after this block then (4 x 8 type stuff). Before going back to 80-85% work

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