Is counting calories disordered eating? Shouldn’t we be able to not overeat?

fastfoodietofitcutie · February 2020

Kalex1975 wrote: »

I am one of those people that @AnnPT77 eluded to that counted calories obsessively. I use to pre-log all of my meals a week in advance and would never stray from what I logged.

I have an eating disorder and OCD for which I have been seeing a psychologist weekly for almost 8 months now. My calorie-counting obsessiveness was very helpful in losing almost 250 pounds. However, I have been maintaining that loss for about 2 1/2 years now and that obsessiveness caused me severe anxiety and has harmed my relationships. I would get super stressed about situations where I wasn't sure what food may be available. I would never go to lunch with my co-workers or out to dinner with friends because I hadn't logged it (they don't bother inviting me anymore). My family was supportive but I could tell they were annoyed.

My therapist worked on me for months to be more flexible. A couple months ago she convinced me to stop logging on the weekends. I finally felt free! It went so well that I stopped logging completely last December. Things have been going well and I am starting to repair those relationships. This was in addition to stopping weighing myself (she had me stop because it would cause me to binge when I was under my goal weight). So, I am still uneasy about the unknowns but the freedom I finally feel has been great.

So, is counting-calories a disordered way of eating? No, I don't think so. However, it can cause issues if you have an eating disorder or OCD. I am grateful for MFP. It was the one tool that was indispensable in my weight loss.

Congratulations on the weight loss, that’s awesome! The question is though, could you have lost that 250lbs without calorie counting?

PAV8888 · February 2020

fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »

Kalex1975 wrote: »

I am grateful for MFP. It was the one tool that was indispensable in my weight loss.

The question is though, could you have lost that 250lbs without calorie counting?

I think he answered your question to the extent that anyone can know given that he didn't lose the lbs some other way! I would have asked whether he could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit, and whether that would have been less triggering for him; but, the same answer applies: we will never know

Now if one were to take your question as a generic question and tie it to your OP: of course anyone can lose weight in any number of ways. Same as with anything else some methods are more suitable to a task than other methods (more direct/higher success rate) and some methods are more suitable to particular individuals as compared to others.

If you, as an individual are being negatively impacted by counting calories I would consider the following in no particular order:

-what is your attempted deficit; is it realistic given your current height, weight, history?
-how obsessive/rigid are you with your counting? Are you able to make changes to your approach?
-is your overall health better served by adopting different methods of controlling your intake or would it be even better served by modifying your near term goals and adopting different ones?

I chose calorie counting because it SUITED ME better than the alternatives I was engaging in. And I made modifications along the way to make it suit me even better (for example choosing a lower MFP base goal with the intention of almost always being above it; choosing a, relatively, low percentage deficit as compared to my TDEE, keeping TDEE high, etc.).

There is no universally correct answer. Just experimentation so that you can find out what suits you best. But without sacred cows. You don't just look at your method (calorie counting, time restrictions, macro restrictions) but at your whole approach as a combination.

And no, in a world of easy to access and tasty food that doesn't cost much relative to our earning power and in which we don't move much... it is probably necessary for most of us to apply some form of limits to our eating/drinking/caloric consumption. As is evidenced by the number of people who do not easily fit in an average airplane seat. Which, at a normal BMI and just below average height (172.5 cm), I now find surprisingly comfortable. Assuming my next door neighbour is not overflowing!

amtyrell · February 2020

Igain weight if i stop calorie counting. (I am currently trying to lose 25 lbs i put on assuming i was good at goal weight)
I spend more money if i stop using my budgeting app .
I get lost if i do not use a directions app.
I think these are not disorders but gaming the system knowing that these are tracking mechanisms that work for me and are tools in my personal arsenal of adulthood.

Kiyomoo · February 2020

So many people are way too quick to label things as a "disorder".

Could calorie counting be a part of someone having an eating disorder? Absolutely. Does it mean that it is itself disordered eating? Absolutely not.

It's circumstantial, as so many things are. For something to be labeled as a disorder, it must impair the individual, give them dysfunctional thoughts, cause them significant distress, be socially inappropriate, and/or cause dysfunctions in their everyday life.

Counting calories? By itself, it is not a disorder. Just like drinking. Drinking alcohol alone isn't enough to call someone an alcoholic. People get the label "alcoholic" when it starts causing problems, gets out of hand, becomes a need rather than a choice.

Counting calories doesn't cause problems for me. It doesn't cause problems for many people. It helps us learn and it helps us become healthier by losing weight. To suggest that counting calories alone is "disordered eating" is really no different than calling someone who likes to drink on occasion an "alcoholic".

MaintainInTheMembrane · February 2020

Any practice can be a trigger for disordered habits.

Do I believe counting calories can trigger eating disorders? Absolutely, if a person has a disorder or a predisposition to developing one.

For many people, calorie counting is basic math and science that gives us a simple framework to work within, and personally, I find a lot of freedom in that.

Look at it this way: some people are triggered by seeing alcohol, because they have an addiction problem. That doesn’t mean no one else can use or enjoy alcohol.

And in terms of eating disorders: calorie counting won’t be the best approach for a lot of those people. But there is help for people who suffer from an eating disorder to deal with healthy habits in a more appropriate way for their disorder.

Kalex1975 · February 2020

fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »

Congratulations on the weight loss, that’s awesome! The question is though, could you have lost that 250lbs without calorie counting?

PAV8888 wrote: »

I think he answered your question to the extent that anyone can know given that he didn't lose the lbs some other way! I would have asked whether he could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit, and whether that would have been less triggering for him; but, the same answer applies: we will never know

@PAV8888 is right, I honestly don't know. All my previous attempts at losing weight failed. I think there were 2 things that played the biggest role in my success this time. My OCD and the heart failure I suffered in 2015.

My therapist thinks I developed OCD because of my mom's long, and ultimately unsuccessful, battle with cancer. The loss of control I was feeling during that period made me start to control things I had power over. It also didn't help that my dad was keeping the family mostly in the dark nearer her death because he "didn't want to bother us" (I've been told this is common among German families). Her death was somewhat of a surprise even though we knew her issues with cancer had been going on for 15+ years. The not knowing also fed into my OCD. It was her battle with cancer that coincided with my weight gain. I was using food for comfort since my family has never been good with sharing our feelings (so these days I overshare as you can probably tell

).

The OCD wasn't helping with my other weight loss attempts though. It was my 10-day stay in the hospital in 2015 because of congestive heart failure that was my rock bottom and wake-up call. After realizing I was on a path to an early grave I finally turned all my energy to losing the weight. Ironically, my OCD is probably what made me successful.

To PAV's question: yes, I think I could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit. I actually wish I did so. I suffered many of the symptoms of under-eating: fatigue; constantly feeling cold; constipation (lead to hemorrhoids); hair loss; and no sex drive. I also have a lot of loose skin. I'm not sure if a slower loss would have prevented that, but regardless, it sucks to not feel comfortable with my body even though I am in the best shape of my life (currently working on my body image issue with the therapist!).

edit: fixed quotes

rainbow198 · February 2020

Keeping track of my calories has helped me to lose and keep off 80 pounds.

When I didn't keep track I overate, wasn't mindful of my eating and slowly packed on the pounds over the years.

I will do whatever it takes to keep that weight off. For me, I find planning and keeping track my meals very helpful. If some consider that disordered eating (which I have heard before) then so be it. I'm the smallest and fittest I've been as an adult and I'm very happy and proud of transformation so I will keep going.

mbaker566 · February 2020

counting is not disordered
obsessing is disordered
eating within your calorie allotment and being ok with not being able to be perfect when eating out, ordered

i cannot trust my body/mind to tell me when to stop eating. that's why i am here

Jruzer · February 2020

I posted this almost a year ago in this thread. It seemed relevant here:

I knew I had to lose weight, and I knew that meant I had to eat less and be more active. But I lacked a strategy - how much less to eat? How much more active to be? Lacking that strategy, I would vow to give up everything good to eat, get up early every morning to exercise, and so on. You know the routine. I'd usually last a few weeks, until I get fed up or until "life got in the way."

Once I realized that there was a manageable way to lose weight by counting calories, it was like the heavens opened. Suddenly I had a strategy that I could live with -- one that was reasonable, adaptable, and allowed for occasional lapses and frequent indulgences. It encouraged exercise and rewarded consistence and responsibility, without being restrictive or punishing.

I have been going strong ever since. That's why I'm an advocate of simply counting calories - it was a liberating experience for me and has literally changed my life. It baffles me that others don't feel this way too.

Carlos_421 · February 2020

Counting calories is informed eating.

Informed =/= disordered.

Also counting calories is intentional eating.

Intentional =/= disordered.

If you think that counting calories makes you not a normal person or wish you "could be a normal person" and not count calories, consider that the "normal person" in a first world country is overweight.

Jruzer · February 2020

I'll share another revelation I've had along the way: not everyone who is "lean" or normal weight is there "naturally".

For sure there are some people who regulate their body weight at normal levels - one of my closest friends is like this. These people don't have much of an appetite, and they tend to be very active. My friend is in constant motion, fidgeting, moving around, getting up and down, etc. One of my sons is like this, too. He just doesn't like to eat very much; he will often save a last small portion of one of his meals because he just doesn't want it, something my fat-boy psyche can't comprehend.

But there are many people who work at regulating their weight, and this is probably not obvious to other people around them. They employ a variety of strategies. My wife, Mrs Jruzer, is at a normal weight after having lost significant poundage decades ago. She doesn't exercise much besides having an active job, but she carefully watches her weight and what she eats. She has a close friend who is very lean, and this friend is very strict with herself about what she eats and how active she is. In fact, I'd say she's more strict with herself with her regimen than I am just doing loose calorie counting.

I've learned of many other people in the same situation. They're the ones that are referred to with statements like "Why is she jogging? She's already skinny!" and "C'mon, have a piece of cake! You can afford it."

In today's obesogenic society, where plentiful delicious food can be inexpensively had in quantities not available to kings and queens of old, almost everyone has to manage their intake and their weight, or else accept being overweight. As the sage said, "Choose your hard."

katsheare · February 2020

moogie_fit wrote: »

fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »

I wish I could just eat like a “normal” person and not count calories.

I feel this all the time. I have had eds in the past. Now I'm just thinking more harm reduction, it's ok to live with disordered eating, isn't it? People are allowed to do many other things with their life. Why do we face stigma?

We live as we live, but must also live with the repercussions of that life. Disordered eating can (in more extreme cases) result in loss of things like overall health, hair and life. So is it okay?

Okay doesn't seem like the right measure. It is, ultimately, not healthy or safe. Should you or anyone dealing with an eating disorder face stigma? This is personal opinion territory, but I come down on a hard 'no' with that. Just as I feel my learning disabled child should not face stigma.

But that same child is my 'normal'. So, OP, you are eating like a normal person. You may even be eating like a typical person. It's really a question, as others have said, of eating as an informed person.

There is a lot of R&D and advertising money that goes into getting us in the West to eat. From a lot of quarters. Which means there is a huge opportunity to be taking in more than we're expending. There are massive forces that benefit from you eating more than you need. You're just not one of them.

AnnPT77 · February 2020

Jruzer wrote: »

I'll share another revelation I've had along the way: not everyone who is "lean" or normal weight is there "naturally".

For sure there are some people who regulate their body weight at normal levels - one of my closest friends is like this. These people don't have much of an appetite, and they tend to be very active. My friend is in constant motion, fidgeting, moving around, getting up and down, etc. One of my sons is like this, too. He just doesn't like to eat very much; he will often save a last small portion of one of his meals because he just doesn't want it, something my fat-boy psyche can't comprehend.

But there are many people who work at regulating their weight, and this is probably not obvious to other people around them. They employ a variety of strategies. My wife, Mrs Jruzer, is at a normal weight after having lost significant poundage decades ago. She doesn't exercise much besides having an active job, but she carefully watches her weight and what she eats. She has a close friend who is very lean, and this friend is very strict with herself about what she eats and how active she is. In fact, I'd say she's more strict with herself with her regimen than I am just doing loose calorie counting.

I've learned of many other people in the same situation. They're the ones that are referred to with statements like "Why is she jogging? She's already skinny!" and "C'mon, have a piece of cake! You can afford it."

In today's obesogenic society, where plentiful delicious food can be inexpensively had in quantities not available to kings and queens of old, almost everyone has to manage their intake and their weight, or else accept being overweight. As the sage said, "Choose your hard."

I think the bolded is really important. On threads here, it's not unusual to see people wishing they were one of those people who maintain without effort, and speaking about it as if that were how most or all always-healthy-weight people are. That's not been my experience. Even among my friends who've always been somewhere in the healthy weight range, many (most) of them exercise some kind of intentional, conscious control over their eating and their weight.

It may be about cutting back a bit as clothes get tight, or keeping an eye on the scale, general appearance-consciousness about how they look, or just having a pretty good handle after many years of experience about where the guardrails need to be on their eating and exercise. It may be magically automatic for some, but that's certainly not a univeral truth among those now (or even always) at a healthy weight.

Someone who loses weight by calorie counting could find one of those many methods for maintaining, which is fine.
Personally, I just find calorie-counting to work better for me - for reasons of the kind of personality/outlook I have - than any of those other options.

paperpudding · February 2020

I have shared on this forum before about my father who is now 80 and has always been slim despite never dieting, or intentionally doing anything about his weight.

But he does not have a sweet tooth, does not have sugary drinks, has one square of chocolate as an occasional treat (1 square!!

) eats small meals because that all he wants, rarely watches TV, does not have a computer or a smart phone, has a car but also walks places or catches bus places (which means walking to and from bus stop) still plays sport (bowls which although not super physical does involve fair bit of walking/moving) has active hobbies like gardening and DIY home projects and dog obedience club.

Given most people do not have similar lifestyle of all those factors which contribute to 'natural' weight control , we need to be mindful of changing things so we do control our weight

Be that calorie counting, deliberate increasing of excercise, cutting back known high calorie items like cake, soft drinks, planning smaller portions, making our own personal rules ('I only eat cake if Ive done my quota of jogging')

Unlike my father, for most people it wont just happen - we have to make it happen.

gothchiq · February 2020

Counting calories in and of itself is not disordered. If you take medications you count out the pills/milligrams you consume and aren't a drug addict, right? Money must also be counted and budgeted but we aren't all Scrooge McDuck. Yeah okay it's not fun but consider the alternative.

erizo19 · February 2020

To me something becomes “disordered” when it interferes with your life in negative ways. Having a messy living room? Normal, not disordered. House so full of trash that you can’t use the living room or have guests over? Disordered.

Same with calorie counting. Does it improve your life, make you healthier and leave you still able to enjoy the occasional dinner or night out with friends? Ordered. Do you isolate yourself from family and friends at mealtimes or make yourself unwell by restricting calories too much? Probably disordered.

amyepdx · February 2020

Re: “normal”
I think there are people for whom the connection between comfort and food luckily never kicked in or at least not as severely. I was thin thru high school and into college but after my first romantic catastrophe, I turned to food. Then once I began to gain weight, I started “dieting” but always going back to food during bad times reinforcing the connection

So I ended up yo-yo dieting for 40 years - each loss followed by an even larger gain.

Counting calories starting in 2015 at my heaviest of 267 allowed me to lose 98 lbs. But guess what, trading the positive feeling of being in control of my eating for using food for comfort again led to a 35 lb gain. I am back in control but I don’t know if I can ever truly break that connection.

tuckerrj · February 2020

Normal eating is eating when you're hungry. I ate when I was happy or sad, happy or mournful, bored or excited, celebrating or ANYTHING other than hunger. THAT, is disordered eating, and the main reason I have to count calories (probably for the rest of my life).

amusedmonkey · February 2020

paperpudding wrote: »

I have shared on this forum before about my father who is now 80 and has always been slim despite never dieting, or intentionally doing anything about his weight.

But he does not have a sweet tooth, does not have sugary drinks, has one square of chocolate as an occasional treat (1 square!! ) eats small meals because that all he wants, rarely watches TV, does not have a computer or a smart phone, has a car but also walks places or catches bus places (which means walking to and from bus stop) still plays sport (bowls which although not super physical does involve fair bit of walking/moving) has active hobbies like gardening and DIY home projects and dog obedience club.

Given most people do not have similar lifestyle of all those factors which contribute to 'natural' weight control , we need to be mindful of changing things so we do control our weight

Be that calorie counting, deliberate increasing of excercise, cutting back known high calorie items like cake, soft drinks, planning smaller portions, making our own personal rules ('I only eat cake if Ive done my quota of jogging')

Unlike my father, for most people it wont just happen - we have to make it happen.

Out of curiosity, have you considered asking your father if he does any of these things out of awareness or if it's just how he is? My stepdad isn't exactly thin, but he's been weight stable give or take a few for as long as I can remember (30+ years), which is unusual for most people. He doesn't seem to care about controlling his food intake and he appears to eat whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Yesterday for the first time I discovered he does control his food intake in some way. We're invited to a relative's house today and there will be a lot of food. Yesterday he asked to use my scale because his isn't working. Mom was teasing him about it, and he replied: "I want to see how much I weigh to know how much to eat tomorrow". It looks like he avoids weight ratcheting up by being aware of his weight before large feasts.

I thought it was a brilliant way to avoid gradual gain if your daily eating habits support the weight you want to be and the gain comes gradually caused by occasionally large meals. I've been managing my weight for 7 years and I'm still learning new things. Brilliant.

paperpudding · February 2020

Certain my father doesn't do anything like adjust his intake in relation to how much he weighs: he does not own a set of scales.
I think he is just a person who enjoys active hobbies so has a naturally high NEAT without deliberate excercise.
Gardening is not a gym workout but he has a large garden and it is picture perfect, an hour worth of gardening, weeding a day and then some time on sanding and varnishing a woodwork project vs watching a movie and then browsing through Facebook.
If you don't watch much tv and you don't have a computer or a smartphone, you spend far less passive time.
And if you don't like sweet things and eat mainly fruit, veg, grains, meat ( eats very little dairy because lactose intolerant) your intake matches your output without conscious effort to do so.

snowflake954 · February 2020

I love counting calories because it's simple, fast and it works--been doing it for 7 years.

As for people who stay thin without effort, I've got a husband who has always been thin. Unlike some of your stories he eats a lot of deserts, chocolate, nuts, gelato, cheese, pizza, and pasta. I have to be careful and control my weight, but he eats what he wants. However, he eats small portions of his regular meals and is always trying to give someone half of his portion. When we go out for pizza he pushes me to eat half. And he is an Italian charmer. How can I eat my pizza or pasta and half of his? I used to fight every Friday and Saturday night in the restaurant or pizzaria. I felt so mean. This went on for years. I finally got smart. I order a salad, eat a third of his pizza and we share a desert. He has been a pescatarian from childhood. At home his portions of regular food are small but then he pulls out deserts after every meal. He is retired now and goes to the fitness center everyday (I wish I could too, but I'm too busy, I go 4 times a week). He loves to walk. Every weekend we're all over Rome (7 hills-yeah!).

ceiswyn · February 2020

Counting calories is how I keep my eating ordered.

Relying on my appetite to regulate my eating is how I binge ate my way up to 27 stone.

rodnichols69 · February 2020

The person repairing an airplane better count the number of screws they took out then put back in.

kshama2001 · February 2020

Kalex1975 wrote: »

fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »

Congratulations on the weight loss, that’s awesome! The question is though, could you have lost that 250lbs without calorie counting?

PAV8888 wrote: »

I think he answered your question to the extent that anyone can know given that he didn't lose the lbs some other way! I would have asked whether he could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit, and whether that would have been less triggering for him; but, the same answer applies: we will never know

@PAV8888 is right, I honestly don't know. All my previous attempts at losing weight failed. I think there were 2 things that played the biggest role in my success this time. My OCD and the heart failure I suffered in 2015.

My therapist thinks I developed OCD because of my mom's long, and ultimately unsuccessful, battle with cancer. The loss of control I was feeling during that period made me start to control things I had power over. It also didn't help that my dad was keeping the family mostly in the dark nearer her death because he "didn't want to bother us" (I've been told this is common among German families). Her death was somewhat of a surprise even though we knew her issues with cancer had been going on for 15+ years. The not knowing also fed into my OCD. It was her battle with cancer that coincided with my weight gain. I was using food for comfort since my family has never been good with sharing our feelings (so these days I overshare as you can probably tell ).

The OCD wasn't helping with my other weight loss attempts though. It was my 10-day stay in the hospital in 2015 because of congestive heart failure that was my rock bottom and wake-up call. After realizing I was on a path to an early grave I finally turned all my energy to losing the weight. Ironically, my OCD is probably what made me successful.

To PAV's question: yes, I think I could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit. I actually wish I did so. I suffered many of the symptoms of under-eating: fatigue; constantly feeling cold; constipation (lead to hemorrhoids); hair loss; and no sex drive. I also have a lot of loose skin. I'm not sure if a slower loss would have prevented that, but regardless, it sucks to not feel comfortable with my body even though I am in the best shape of my life (currently working on my body image issue with the therapist!).

edit: fixed quotes

My mom's mother died unexpectedly (to my mother) when mom was 13. She had been kept in the dark too. It was very traumatizing to her.

Now that you've mentioned your developing OCD as a response, I can't help but wonder if this experience led my mother to be super controlling of my brother (who is mentally ill and admittedly benefits from some guidance, but mom can be extreme at times.)

janstewart62 · February 2020

I would love to be is considered "normal" !

xxzenabxx · February 2020

Calorie counting has helped me a lot! Yes it does get annoying when my family members don’t cooperate and use lots of oil and refuse to measure any recipe but that’s another story. I just have to guesstimate then. If I wasn’t counting calories I wouldn’t know how to lose weight safely without undereating. If I ate intuitively I would undereat and then binge. One day, when I eventually get to maintenance by the end of this year, I do plan on stop weighing my food and just eye balling stuff. I’ve created healthy habits to help keep the weight off hopefully. Plus my main issue, as I only just realised, is I undereat and restrict. Then I binge. When I’m not restricting and just sticking to a small 300 calorie deficit I’m SO full. I get full very quickly now and I’m not hungry as much. So my ghrelin seems to be under control now! Also sleep is much better too. So yes, I love how much it has helped me. The issue is people assume calorie counting means 1200 calories a day and starving the whole day. That’s so wrong! You’re just tracking your food. It doesn’t have to be restrictive, we’re just brainwashed into thinking it’s restrictive. Not eating carbs (keto diet) is restrictive but that seems acceptable?! I think we just need to change our mindset.

psychod787 · February 2020

Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..

ceiswyn · February 2020

psychod787 wrote: »

Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..

...so let me tell you about the time I binged on satsumas. Oh, and the time I binged on carrots. And apples. And pineapple (and OW my poor mouth and stomach hurt after that one).

psychod787 · February 2020

ceiswyn wrote: »

psychod787 wrote: »

Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..

...so let me tell you about the time I binged on satsumas. Oh, and the time I binged on carrots. And apples. And pineapple (and OW my poor mouth and stomach hurt after that one).

Oh I did on peaches once.... but as a caveat i was sub 9% bf coming from over 50%... so... I probably would have binged on dirt. 😉 I will REPHRASE my statement. People in general are LESS likely to binge on them. The fact that your belly was yelling at you says something to the potential satiation ability of them.

**edit** The calorie density of carrots is 200 cals a pound or so. Fruit roughly 300 cals a pound. Ben and Jerry's is roughly 1200 calories a pound. How much would have you eaten of the ben and Jerry's vs apples?

lemurcat2 · February 2020

I don't think binging is likely relevant to what is different between now and the long ago past.

I think most people who become overweight and even obese probably don't binge in any clinical kind of way. I think they just find it easy to overeat -- without external strictures they eat more calories than they need for an extended period of time.

Why is that?

Partly, sure, that food tends to be both more processed (less fiber, etc.) and higher cal on average, such that it takes less time to eat beyond your needs and is easier to do that before you feel overful.

Probably that highly palatable foods (whether homemade and delicious foods with fat and salt or fat and sugar or any number of other combinations) or the knock-offs that are so easily available now (even if less good!) are easier to overeat as they tend to override any satiety signals (and also tend to be highly caloric, and for reasons that make sense if looked at evolutionally, of course we tend to be attracted to more calorie-dense foods).

Food scarcity (in terms of scarcity of overall calories) is not as common now, in 1st world countries especially, as it was regularly through much or most of human history.

External cultural restrictions on food consumption are basically gone -- more and more eating throughout the day seems the norm and options are available.

Food availability requires no work (if I just decide I will only eat foods I make, that makes it much harder to overeat, although of course I still can).

Add to this all the changes in necessary activity level.

In my mid 20s I was naturally pretty active on a daily basis, and I only ate at mealtimes, since that was my habit, and I was a healthy weight without thinking about it. In my early 30s I was less active, stress ate some, and ate high cal food related to my job on a regular basis, and my weight crept up to the point that I was obese. I'm obviously someone who can gain easily and whose natural inclinations aren't sufficient to prevent it (if taking no steps to prevent it and in the current food environment), but in my 20s I would have said I was naturally the weight I was with no effort.

Is counting calories disordered eating? Shouldn’t we be able to not overeat?

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