Is counting calories disordered eating? Shouldn’t we be able to not overeat?
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I'll share another revelation I've had along the way: not everyone who is "lean" or normal weight is there "naturally".
For sure there are some people who regulate their body weight at normal levels - one of my closest friends is like this. These people don't have much of an appetite, and they tend to be very active. My friend is in constant motion, fidgeting, moving around, getting up and down, etc. One of my sons is like this, too. He just doesn't like to eat very much; he will often save a last small portion of one of his meals because he just doesn't want it, something my fat-boy psyche can't comprehend.
But there are many people who work at regulating their weight, and this is probably not obvious to other people around them. They employ a variety of strategies. My wife, Mrs Jruzer, is at a normal weight after having lost significant poundage decades ago. She doesn't exercise much besides having an active job, but she carefully watches her weight and what she eats. She has a close friend who is very lean, and this friend is very strict with herself about what she eats and how active she is. In fact, I'd say she's more strict with herself with her regimen than I am just doing loose calorie counting.
I've learned of many other people in the same situation. They're the ones that are referred to with statements like "Why is she jogging? She's already skinny!" and "C'mon, have a piece of cake! You can afford it."
In today's obesogenic society, where plentiful delicious food can be inexpensively had in quantities not available to kings and queens of old, almost everyone has to manage their intake and their weight, or else accept being overweight. As the sage said, "Choose your hard."
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moogie_fit wrote: »fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »I wish I could just eat like a “normal” person and not count calories.
We live as we live, but must also live with the repercussions of that life. Disordered eating can (in more extreme cases) result in loss of things like overall health, hair and life. So is it okay?
Okay doesn't seem like the right measure. It is, ultimately, not healthy or safe. Should you or anyone dealing with an eating disorder face stigma? This is personal opinion territory, but I come down on a hard 'no' with that. Just as I feel my learning disabled child should not face stigma.
But that same child is my 'normal'. So, OP, you are eating like a normal person. You may even be eating like a typical person. It's really a question, as others have said, of eating as an informed person.
There is a lot of R&D and advertising money that goes into getting us in the West to eat. From a lot of quarters. Which means there is a huge opportunity to be taking in more than we're expending. There are massive forces that benefit from you eating more than you need. You're just not one of them.1 -
I'll share another revelation I've had along the way: not everyone who is "lean" or normal weight is there "naturally".
For sure there are some people who regulate their body weight at normal levels - one of my closest friends is like this. These people don't have much of an appetite, and they tend to be very active. My friend is in constant motion, fidgeting, moving around, getting up and down, etc. One of my sons is like this, too. He just doesn't like to eat very much; he will often save a last small portion of one of his meals because he just doesn't want it, something my fat-boy psyche can't comprehend.
But there are many people who work at regulating their weight, and this is probably not obvious to other people around them. They employ a variety of strategies. My wife, Mrs Jruzer, is at a normal weight after having lost significant poundage decades ago. She doesn't exercise much besides having an active job, but she carefully watches her weight and what she eats. She has a close friend who is very lean, and this friend is very strict with herself about what she eats and how active she is. In fact, I'd say she's more strict with herself with her regimen than I am just doing loose calorie counting.
I've learned of many other people in the same situation. They're the ones that are referred to with statements like "Why is she jogging? She's already skinny!" and "C'mon, have a piece of cake! You can afford it."
In today's obesogenic society, where plentiful delicious food can be inexpensively had in quantities not available to kings and queens of old, almost everyone has to manage their intake and their weight, or else accept being overweight. As the sage said, "Choose your hard."
I think the bolded is really important. On threads here, it's not unusual to see people wishing they were one of those people who maintain without effort, and speaking about it as if that were how most or all always-healthy-weight people are. That's not been my experience. Even among my friends who've always been somewhere in the healthy weight range, many (most) of them exercise some kind of intentional, conscious control over their eating and their weight.
It may be about cutting back a bit as clothes get tight, or keeping an eye on the scale, general appearance-consciousness about how they look, or just having a pretty good handle after many years of experience about where the guardrails need to be on their eating and exercise. It may be magically automatic for some, but that's certainly not a univeral truth among those now (or even always) at a healthy weight.
Someone who loses weight by calorie counting could find one of those many methods for maintaining, which is fine.
Personally, I just find calorie-counting to work better for me - for reasons of the kind of personality/outlook I have - than any of those other options.11 -
I have shared on this forum before about my father who is now 80 and has always been slim despite never dieting, or intentionally doing anything about his weight.
But he does not have a sweet tooth, does not have sugary drinks, has one square of chocolate as an occasional treat (1 square!! ) eats small meals because that all he wants, rarely watches TV, does not have a computer or a smart phone, has a car but also walks places or catches bus places (which means walking to and from bus stop) still plays sport (bowls which although not super physical does involve fair bit of walking/moving) has active hobbies like gardening and DIY home projects and dog obedience club.
Given most people do not have similar lifestyle of all those factors which contribute to 'natural' weight control , we need to be mindful of changing things so we do control our weight
Be that calorie counting, deliberate increasing of excercise, cutting back known high calorie items like cake, soft drinks, planning smaller portions, making our own personal rules ('I only eat cake if Ive done my quota of jogging')
Unlike my father, for most people it wont just happen - we have to make it happen.
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Counting calories in and of itself is not disordered. If you take medications you count out the pills/milligrams you consume and aren't a drug addict, right? Money must also be counted and budgeted but we aren't all Scrooge McDuck. Yeah okay it's not fun but consider the alternative.3
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To me something becomes “disordered” when it interferes with your life in negative ways. Having a messy living room? Normal, not disordered. House so full of trash that you can’t use the living room or have guests over? Disordered.
Same with calorie counting. Does it improve your life, make you healthier and leave you still able to enjoy the occasional dinner or night out with friends? Ordered. Do you isolate yourself from family and friends at mealtimes or make yourself unwell by restricting calories too much? Probably disordered.
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Re: “normal”
I think there are people for whom the connection between comfort and food luckily never kicked in or at least not as severely. I was thin thru high school and into college but after my first romantic catastrophe, I turned to food. Then once I began to gain weight, I started “dieting” but always going back to food during bad times reinforcing the connection
So I ended up yo-yo dieting for 40 years - each loss followed by an even larger gain.
Counting calories starting in 2015 at my heaviest of 267 allowed me to lose 98 lbs. But guess what, trading the positive feeling of being in control of my eating for using food for comfort again led to a 35 lb gain. I am back in control but I don’t know if I can ever truly break that connection.
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Normal eating is eating when you're hungry. I ate when I was happy or sad, happy or mournful, bored or excited, celebrating or ANYTHING other than hunger. THAT, is disordered eating, and the main reason I have to count calories (probably for the rest of my life).12
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paperpudding wrote: »I have shared on this forum before about my father who is now 80 and has always been slim despite never dieting, or intentionally doing anything about his weight.
But he does not have a sweet tooth, does not have sugary drinks, has one square of chocolate as an occasional treat (1 square!! ) eats small meals because that all he wants, rarely watches TV, does not have a computer or a smart phone, has a car but also walks places or catches bus places (which means walking to and from bus stop) still plays sport (bowls which although not super physical does involve fair bit of walking/moving) has active hobbies like gardening and DIY home projects and dog obedience club.
Given most people do not have similar lifestyle of all those factors which contribute to 'natural' weight control , we need to be mindful of changing things so we do control our weight
Be that calorie counting, deliberate increasing of excercise, cutting back known high calorie items like cake, soft drinks, planning smaller portions, making our own personal rules ('I only eat cake if Ive done my quota of jogging')
Unlike my father, for most people it wont just happen - we have to make it happen.
Out of curiosity, have you considered asking your father if he does any of these things out of awareness or if it's just how he is? My stepdad isn't exactly thin, but he's been weight stable give or take a few for as long as I can remember (30+ years), which is unusual for most people. He doesn't seem to care about controlling his food intake and he appears to eat whatever he wants whenever he wants.
Yesterday for the first time I discovered he does control his food intake in some way. We're invited to a relative's house today and there will be a lot of food. Yesterday he asked to use my scale because his isn't working. Mom was teasing him about it, and he replied: "I want to see how much I weigh to know how much to eat tomorrow". It looks like he avoids weight ratcheting up by being aware of his weight before large feasts.
I thought it was a brilliant way to avoid gradual gain if your daily eating habits support the weight you want to be and the gain comes gradually caused by occasionally large meals. I've been managing my weight for 7 years and I'm still learning new things. Brilliant.4 -
Certain my father doesn't do anything like adjust his intake in relation to how much he weighs: he does not own a set of scales.
I think he is just a person who enjoys active hobbies so has a naturally high NEAT without deliberate excercise.
Gardening is not a gym workout but he has a large garden and it is picture perfect, an hour worth of gardening, weeding a day and then some time on sanding and varnishing a woodwork project vs watching a movie and then browsing through Facebook.
If you don't watch much tv and you don't have a computer or a smartphone, you spend far less passive time.
And if you don't like sweet things and eat mainly fruit, veg, grains, meat ( eats very little dairy because lactose intolerant) your intake matches your output without conscious effort to do so.3 -
I love counting calories because it's simple, fast and it works--been doing it for 7 years.
As for people who stay thin without effort, I've got a husband who has always been thin. Unlike some of your stories he eats a lot of deserts, chocolate, nuts, gelato, cheese, pizza, and pasta. I have to be careful and control my weight, but he eats what he wants. However, he eats small portions of his regular meals and is always trying to give someone half of his portion. When we go out for pizza he pushes me to eat half. And he is an Italian charmer. How can I eat my pizza or pasta and half of his? I used to fight every Friday and Saturday night in the restaurant or pizzaria. I felt so mean. This went on for years. I finally got smart. I order a salad, eat a third of his pizza and we share a desert. He has been a pescatarian from childhood. At home his portions of regular food are small but then he pulls out deserts after every meal. He is retired now and goes to the fitness center everyday (I wish I could too, but I'm too busy, I go 4 times a week). He loves to walk. Every weekend we're all over Rome (7 hills-yeah!).4 -
Counting calories is how I keep my eating ordered.
Relying on my appetite to regulate my eating is how I binge ate my way up to 27 stone.6 -
The person repairing an airplane better count the number of screws they took out then put back in.3
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fastfoodietofitcutie wrote: »Congratulations on the weight loss, that’s awesome! The question is though, could you have lost that 250lbs without calorie counting?I think he answered your question to the extent that anyone can know given that he didn't lose the lbs some other way! I would have asked whether he could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit, and whether that would have been less triggering for him; but, the same answer applies: we will never know
@PAV8888 is right, I honestly don't know. All my previous attempts at losing weight failed. I think there were 2 things that played the biggest role in my success this time. My OCD and the heart failure I suffered in 2015.
My therapist thinks I developed OCD because of my mom's long, and ultimately unsuccessful, battle with cancer. The loss of control I was feeling during that period made me start to control things I had power over. It also didn't help that my dad was keeping the family mostly in the dark nearer her death because he "didn't want to bother us" (I've been told this is common among German families). Her death was somewhat of a surprise even though we knew her issues with cancer had been going on for 15+ years. The not knowing also fed into my OCD. It was her battle with cancer that coincided with my weight gain. I was using food for comfort since my family has never been good with sharing our feelings (so these days I overshare as you can probably tell ).
The OCD wasn't helping with my other weight loss attempts though. It was my 10-day stay in the hospital in 2015 because of congestive heart failure that was my rock bottom and wake-up call. After realizing I was on a path to an early grave I finally turned all my energy to losing the weight. Ironically, my OCD is probably what made me successful.
To PAV's question: yes, I think I could have lost the same amount of weight with a smaller deficit. I actually wish I did so. I suffered many of the symptoms of under-eating: fatigue; constantly feeling cold; constipation (lead to hemorrhoids); hair loss; and no sex drive. I also have a lot of loose skin. I'm not sure if a slower loss would have prevented that, but regardless, it sucks to not feel comfortable with my body even though I am in the best shape of my life (currently working on my body image issue with the therapist!).
edit: fixed quotes
My mom's mother died unexpectedly (to my mother) when mom was 13. She had been kept in the dark too. It was very traumatizing to her.
Now that you've mentioned your developing OCD as a response, I can't help but wonder if this experience led my mother to be super controlling of my brother (who is mentally ill and admittedly benefits from some guidance, but mom can be extreme at times.)3 -
I would love to be is considered "normal" !1
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Calorie counting has helped me a lot! Yes it does get annoying when my family members don’t cooperate and use lots of oil and refuse to measure any recipe but that’s another story. I just have to guesstimate then. If I wasn’t counting calories I wouldn’t know how to lose weight safely without undereating. If I ate intuitively I would undereat and then binge. One day, when I eventually get to maintenance by the end of this year, I do plan on stop weighing my food and just eye balling stuff. I’ve created healthy habits to help keep the weight off hopefully. Plus my main issue, as I only just realised, is I undereat and restrict. Then I binge. When I’m not restricting and just sticking to a small 300 calorie deficit I’m SO full. I get full very quickly now and I’m not hungry as much. So my ghrelin seems to be under control now! Also sleep is much better too. So yes, I love how much it has helped me. The issue is people assume calorie counting means 1200 calories a day and starving the whole day. That’s so wrong! You’re just tracking your food. It doesn’t have to be restrictive, we’re just brainwashed into thinking it’s restrictive. Not eating carbs (keto diet) is restrictive but that seems acceptable?! I think we just need to change our mindset.5
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Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..4
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psychod787 wrote: »Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..
...so let me tell you about the time I binged on satsumas. Oh, and the time I binged on carrots. And apples. And pineapple (and OW my poor mouth and stomach hurt after that one).5 -
psychod787 wrote: »Breaking my 10 day no post celibacy... I think humans do have a natural ability to control calories. Now, I think it is stronger in some people. Genetics might play a role. Our genetics have not changed that much in the last 100 years. What has changed? The food environment. People now consume more energy dense/hyper palatable foods. These foods I think overload this satiety center. Now, one can gain weight eating any kind of foods. Though, I think certain properties of certain foods help trigger satiety quicker and longer. When most people binge, it's not on plain fruits, vegetables, leaner meats, it's usually very energy dense foods like ice cream. By lowering the energy density of one's diet, they may be able to eat more "normally" without counting calories. If you want to eat like a "normal" person, you will most likely gain weight. It's the norm not the exception it used to be. There have been studies on the diets of more traditional hunter and gatherer cultures. They seem to have a total caloric density of 1-1.2. If we look at the Kevin Hall less processed vs more processed diet study. We see the average calorie density of the "eaten" food of the less processed group was 1.08 vs 1.31 of the more processed. Correlation? Yes. Possible inside into the satiety center of the human brain... Maybe..
...so let me tell you about the time I binged on satsumas. Oh, and the time I binged on carrots. And apples. And pineapple (and OW my poor mouth and stomach hurt after that one).
Oh I did on peaches once.... but as a caveat i was sub 9% bf coming from over 50%... so... I probably would have binged on dirt. 😉 I will REPHRASE my statement. People in general are LESS likely to binge on them. The fact that your belly was yelling at you says something to the potential satiation ability of them.
**edit** The calorie density of carrots is 200 cals a pound or so. Fruit roughly 300 cals a pound. Ben and Jerry's is roughly 1200 calories a pound. How much would have you eaten of the ben and Jerry's vs apples?1 -
I don't think binging is likely relevant to what is different between now and the long ago past.
I think most people who become overweight and even obese probably don't binge in any clinical kind of way. I think they just find it easy to overeat -- without external strictures they eat more calories than they need for an extended period of time.
Why is that?
Partly, sure, that food tends to be both more processed (less fiber, etc.) and higher cal on average, such that it takes less time to eat beyond your needs and is easier to do that before you feel overful.
Probably that highly palatable foods (whether homemade and delicious foods with fat and salt or fat and sugar or any number of other combinations) or the knock-offs that are so easily available now (even if less good!) are easier to overeat as they tend to override any satiety signals (and also tend to be highly caloric, and for reasons that make sense if looked at evolutionally, of course we tend to be attracted to more calorie-dense foods).
Food scarcity (in terms of scarcity of overall calories) is not as common now, in 1st world countries especially, as it was regularly through much or most of human history.
External cultural restrictions on food consumption are basically gone -- more and more eating throughout the day seems the norm and options are available.
Food availability requires no work (if I just decide I will only eat foods I make, that makes it much harder to overeat, although of course I still can).
Add to this all the changes in necessary activity level.
In my mid 20s I was naturally pretty active on a daily basis, and I only ate at mealtimes, since that was my habit, and I was a healthy weight without thinking about it. In my early 30s I was less active, stress ate some, and ate high cal food related to my job on a regular basis, and my weight crept up to the point that I was obese. I'm obviously someone who can gain easily and whose natural inclinations aren't sufficient to prevent it (if taking no steps to prevent it and in the current food environment), but in my 20s I would have said I was naturally the weight I was with no effort.5
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