Question for rowers?
gearhead426hemi
Posts: 919 Member
What is a good pace to shoot for? 2000m?5000m? I've recently added rowing a few days a week for cardio but I dont really have a idea of what is a quick or good pace. Any insight and advise is appreciated. This is my 5000m pace from today.
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Replies
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How are you getting 318 calories with 20 minutes of rowing at 28 s/m?
I often do 20 minutes of rowing at 28 s/m and I'm lucky to get 150 calories.0 -
Can you explain that a bit more?1 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »What is a good pace to shoot for? 2000m?5000m? I've recently added rowing a few days a week for cardio but I dont really have a idea of what is a quick or good pace. Any insight and advise is appreciated. This is my 5000m pace from today.
It's going to vary pretty wildly especially depending taking into account experience and technique but given that I essentially never look at the calorie screen (this isn't uncommon among rowers). What you've taken a picture of is not your pace, it's the calorie expenditure for someone weight 175lbs (what Concept 2 defaults to on all of their machines - there's a calculator on their website with more info). If you want to know your split (so your pace) you want to look at the 500m split screen. That said, given that you said this was a 5k that's a good time for someone who just started erging.
Given that you just started rowing on an erg slow down your stroke rate. Aim for an 18 and really work on technique. Concept 2 has loads of resources on that. Additionally, if your damper is on 10 lower it to say, 4. I can think of no need for anyone to be doing a 2k, let alone a 5k with their damper at a 10 assuming the erg is well maintained.
If you want to follow a plan I would suggest something like the Beginner Pete Training Plan. If you don't want to follow a plan I'd suggest picking workouts from Concept 2's workout of the day.
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Can you explain that a bit more?
I can try, but here's a video of the then 12 year old Helena Purves setting the 12 and under 2k world record.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfS5B7l9mNw
Her average split was a 1:51.6 and her average stroke rate was a 27 (and she's a beast...12 years old...). Note that Ann typically uses this video of Sofia Asoumanaki to talk about this but I like that the preview screen is the memory screen so you can see her splits and her stroke rate.
Ok so, stroke rate is only one part of the equation, an arguably large one is the ability that someone has to transmit power to the flywheel which is a matter of strength, technique, weight, cardiovascular fitness, and height (to varying extents in terms of height). If you had a robot that was rowing and putting the pushing/pulling the same amount of watts every stroke then stroke rate would be the deciding factor, but we aren't robots. When I erg with my time I prefer the time based workouts, which often involve a different stroke rates that everyone is following because it means we all finish at the same time. We also, however, all have different distances despite erging at the same cadences for the same number of minutes with the same number of breaks.
Just like you can put out different amounts of power on the bike at the same cadence, you can change your split on the erg at the same stroke rate. I can recover at an 18 and I can also do power tens (ten hard strokes) at a 18. It's about how much energy you're putting into the flywheel with your legs, body, and arms.
Now if you can put out a ton of power at a very high stroke rate and sustain that over the course of say, 2k? Then that's great. But that's not what you want to be doing every workout.2 -
Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
You're doing fine for just starting out, very well actually. Your 5K right now is around mine currently. I'm 55 and working back from a bad back injury. My best 5K is around a 19:30 two years ago. I have never cracked 7 minutes on a 2K. Closest I got is 7:11, but I'm not particularly strong or tall (both help). For my height and age, as well as physical limitations, that's pretty good. But understand, it took me years to get to that point. Rowing 5 and 6 days a week.
Concept2 has rankings yearly for all age groups. That will give you a really solid idea of where you stand. At my best, I was somewhere between the 75th percentile and the 90th percentile. Since my back injury, I'm like 25th percentile on paces. This is based on my age and weight.
Don't compare yourself to top rowers. I used to do that. I'm in a virtual "club" where near all the women beat my times, but they are also some of the strongest rowers in the world. It's just incredibly frustrating to compare yourself to top rowers. Work on stroke and form and fitness. Then gradually work on paces. Bad form is hard to correct once it's a habit.
That's ridiculous for a 12 year old girl!0 -
How are you getting 318 calories with 20 minutes of rowing at 28 s/m?
I often do 20 minutes of rowing at 28 s/m and I'm lucky to get 150 calories.
I suspect that the advice Aokoye gave OP would be helpful to you, too, if your goal is more calories per minute, assuming it's the C2 saying 150 calories for 20 minutes. (Not weight adjusted, that would be a split slower than 3:00/500m.)
Slowing down the SPM and working on technique would probably cost you calories in the short run, but allow for power development that will help you to get higher calories per minute in the long run. If damper's at 10, move it down to around 3 (you and I are women; aokoye and OP are guys - looking at drag factor would be more precise, but damper will do for starters as long as the machine's not in terrible shape).
I usually do most LISS/MISS workouts in the 18-22SPM range, shooting for meters per stroke rather than SPM, or for lower split at a limited HR (more challenging).
I don't race anymore, so rarely go to 28. It's not that useful to me, for technique, conditioning, or power. YMMV on that score. But for sure, highest stroke rating doesn't equate to highest calories, ignoring everything else.
I suspect someone as active as you can hit higher calories per time period than 150/20 minutes, if you want to, with some technique work . . . and I say that as a woman who's old, and objectively pretty slow.
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@aokoye & everyone else , thanks for the input. I usually set the resistance at 6 and I try to keep my pace at 850+ calories per hour. I will have to watch my 500m pace from here on out to see my improvements. Sub 7 minute 2k will have to be my goal because right now my best is 8:01. The pace I took a picture of I started the resistance off at 6 and every 1000m I increased it by one just to change things up. I watched a few videos about form and I actually don't put the straps on my feet to keep focusing on my form.0
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MikePfirrman wrote: »Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
In my AG a 7 min 2,000m would qualify me for the CRASH Bs in Boston. Agreed that a 20 min 5K is a great target (my PB is still around 21 min)
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gearhead426hemi wrote: »@aokoye & everyone else , thanks for the input. I usually set the resistance at 6 and I try to keep my pace at 850+ calories per hour. I will have to watch my 500m pace from here on out to see my improvements. Sub 7 minute 2k will have to be my goal because right now my best is 8:01. The pace I took a picture of I started the resistance off at 6 and every 1000m I increased it by one just to change things up. I watched a few videos about form and I actually don't put the straps on my feet to keep focusing on my form.
No worries and I like that you'r rowing feet out. In terms of what I bolded - don't do that. The damper on the erg setting is not resistance. Don't think of it as a resistance knob on a spin bike. What it does do is allow for people to set the drag factor which simulates the resistance of the water that you'd feel in an actual boat. Setting it too high is a recipe for injury and is simply not useful. Here's a series of posts from concept2 about this:
https://www.concept2.com/news/debunking-myths-damper-setting-stroke-rate-and-intensity
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-general-info/damper-setting-101
https://www.concept2.com/news/damper-and-drag-olympians3 -
BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
In my AG a 7 min 2,000m would qualify me for the CRASH Bs in Boston. Agreed that a 20 min 5K is a great target (my PB is still around 21 min)
My idea of times maybe scewed a bit. Likely from the rowers that I train with in my club. Many are my age or older and do 5Ks or longer at 1:50 pace, which is a bit insane. Over 55, the numbers of those that can do a 7 minute 2K or less greatly dwindle. But I was guessing the OP as much younger than you or I, so 7 isn't uncommon, especially at a younger, strong age.1 -
gearhead426hemi wrote: »@aokoye & everyone else , thanks for the input. I usually set the resistance at 6 and I try to keep my pace at 850+ calories per hour. I will have to watch my 500m pace from here on out to see my improvements. Sub 7 minute 2k will have to be my goal because right now my best is 8:01. The pace I took a picture of I started the resistance off at 6 and every 1000m I increased it by one just to change things up. I watched a few videos about form and I actually don't put the straps on my feet to keep focusing on my form.
In addition to what aokoye said about damper setting (which is 100% correct), you might consider some different variations. Common things rowers do in workouts are ratings pyramids (like 500 at 18, 500 at 22. 500 at 24, 500 at 26, then back down 24-22-18 again; or intervals of various sorts (one my friends like is 20 strokes hard, 6 strokes easy). Yes, that will vary your calories, but it will also give you some variation while allowing you to work technique and get faster with time. Among rowers, indoor and on-water, the way we get faster is not by trying to go fast all the time .
On the Concept 2 web site, there is a "Workout of the Day" section (you can get alternates if you don't like the one(s) offered. It's https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/wod . Some of them IMO don't include enough info in the description about what the objective is and what the intensity should be, but they'll give you ideas about changes you can try for variety rather than messing with the damper.
There's also a workout podcast, info at https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/workout-podcast , and their blogs periodically include suggested workouts with some info about the purposes and such (https://www.concept2.com/news).
Row2k is another site with good rowing info, news and such, but also some coaching and workout info. The competitive edge section would be a good place to look (https://www.row2k.com/features/competitive/). There'll be a good bit about on-water issues, but also Winter training (mostly erg-focused) and technique info that applies to both indoor and on-water.1 -
BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
In my AG a 7 min 2,000m would qualify me for the CRASH Bs in Boston. Agreed that a 20 min 5K is a great target (my PB is still around 21 min)
FWIW: Anyone can enter CRASH-B at any pace. The "qualifier" is to have Concept 2 give you a stipend to help cover your travel. There routinely have been women in my competition class at CRASH-B that (were I still training) I could beat. I'd still be near the bottom, though, just not right at it - I'm not fast, probably around 75%-ile, if trained and uninjured.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
In my AG a 7 min 2,000m would qualify me for the CRASH Bs in Boston. Agreed that a 20 min 5K is a great target (my PB is still around 21 min)
My idea of times maybe scewed a bit. Likely from the rowers that I train with in my club. Many are my age or older and do 5Ks or longer at 1:50 pace, which is a bit insane. Over 55, the numbers of those that can do a 7 minute 2K or less greatly dwindle. But I was guessing the OP as much younger than you or I, so 7 isn't uncommon, especially at a younger, strong age.
Well I am 41 so not old but not a spring chicken either. I enjoy really pushing myself quite often and I find that my mind is WAY more willing than my body some days.
@AnnPT77 , I always do circuit training with all my workouts because it just feels better. I have tried doing intervals on the rower like setting at 6 and keeping increasing my pace by tracking the cal/hr and incrementally increasing it for a set distance or time. Sometimes I just focus on keeping a set pace for a longer period. I really like to keep changing it up every workout.
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gearhead426hemi wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Aoyoke gave some great advice. In general, men shoot for sub 7 minute 2Ks as the ultimate benchmark and women around 7:45 or so, maybe 8 minutes. For a 5K, 20 minutes is a very good time to eventually shoot for.
In my AG a 7 min 2,000m would qualify me for the CRASH Bs in Boston. Agreed that a 20 min 5K is a great target (my PB is still around 21 min)
My idea of times maybe scewed a bit. Likely from the rowers that I train with in my club. Many are my age or older and do 5Ks or longer at 1:50 pace, which is a bit insane. Over 55, the numbers of those that can do a 7 minute 2K or less greatly dwindle. But I was guessing the OP as much younger than you or I, so 7 isn't uncommon, especially at a younger, strong age.
Well I am 41 so not old but not a spring chicken either. I enjoy really pushing myself quite often and I find that my mind is WAY more willing than my body some days.
@AnnPT77 , I always do circuit training with all my workouts because it just feels better. I have tried doing intervals on the rower like setting at 6 and keeping increasing my pace by tracking the cal/hr and incrementally increasing it for a set distance or time. Sometimes I just focus on keeping a set pace for a longer period. I really like to keep changing it up every workout.
With your current times @ 5K and your age, depending on your weight and height, I think in a couple of years you could get close to a 7 minute 2K. It all depends on how much you like it and are willing to work at it.
One online buddy of mine couldn't break 8 minutes when he started. He's 47 and a lightweight. He also was 60 lbs overweight to start (a lot like I was). This was 3 or so years ago. He's racing this week and I expect him to come close to 7:05 or less. He's become an indoor rowing machine and he weighs significantly less than I do and he's not particularly tall. If I could get close to 7 minutes at 53 with a bum right knee, you could too.
Brian is right, though, 20 minute 5K is likely easier as a goal to start. Once you get closing in on 19 minutes or less (for a 5K), you're getting closer to a 7 minute 2K time. Some never hit that and I may never either. But it's a great goal to shoot for.2 -
Oh, forget about calories on the screen too! Set your PM (the computer on the C2) to pace. I burn 750 rough calories on easy days in an hour and 950 or so on hard hours. Calories don't mean that much. If you can, get ErgData and a phone cradle -- it's a phone app that's great for tracking metrics. It also automatically logs your rows into a Concept 2 Logbook if you set that up.
The only reason I even look at calories is they are part of my HRM, which is useful to me for monitoring effort on hard vs easy days. I know you're on MFP, so I'm sure weight loss means something and calories mean more to eat, but forget about calories if pacing/long-term improvement is important to you.
Pace is the time it takes to go 500m. If you want to not look at that, set the monitor to Watts. Both are more important than calories as a metrics. 200 Watts is a 2:00 pace, so working up to closer to 200 Watts at a lower SR per minute is helpful to know how powerful/efficient you are per stroke.1 -
Yesterday at Orangetheory was 2000 meters row benchmark. (my location)
Average for women 29 and under was 6.95
women 30-39 6.96
women 40-49 7.34
women 50+ 7.83
Average for men 29 and under was 7.99
men 30-39 6.36
men 40-49 6.45
men 50+ 8.23
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weatherking2019 wrote: »Yesterday at Orangetheory was 2000 meters row benchmark. (my location)
Average for women 29 and under was 6.95
women 30-39 6.96
women 40-49 7.34
women 50+ 7.83
Average for men 29 and under was 7.99
men 30-39 6.36
men 40-49 6.45
men 50+ 8.23
Does your OT use Water Rowers, or Concept 2? (Asking because in my understanding, the splits/times are not comparable between the two.)2 -
Kind of a broad question....
For 2k When I was a colegiant rower I wanted something sub 5 or low 6.
I'm 48, an occasional sculler but avid cyclist and would be happy with anything sub 8 for 2k but bet I could do 7:30ish?... But I'm also probably more efficient than you.1 -
If anyone is interested, World Indoor Rowing Championships is this weekend in Paris. I had hoped to compete but I'm not even close to fit (rowing fit that is) currently. There will be many, many WRs going down.
The Brits are among the best rowers in the world and many didn't even make the CRASH-Bs. Most of my "Sub 7" Indoor rowing club is comprised of the best of the US Indoor rowers and many of the best in Europe. I'm expecting some amazing records. Our top woman is the current WR holder (something like low 6:20s, just insane). It's actually 6:22.8. Now, she was also an Olympic OTW rower as well.
I think Jhanleybrown meant something "sub 6 or low 6", which is what a top collegiate rower does regularly. But guys like him kill me! They stroll into an indoor regatta out of shape and do 7:20s with ease (on muscle memory I think!).
I think it's being live cast.0 -
weatherking2019 wrote: »Yesterday at Orangetheory was 2000 meters row benchmark. (my location)
Average for women 29 and under was 6.95
women 30-39 6.96
women 40-49 7.34
women 50+ 7.83
Average for men 29 and under was 7.99
men 30-39 6.36
men 40-49 6.45
men 50+ 8.23
Apples and Oranges. I set the "club record" for the 500m at my only OTF class for that location and I'm slow on sprints. My best sprint at 500m is something like 1:39 and I was nearly sub 1:30 on a Waterrower (actually would have been lower but I thought I was done and slowed down because I couldn't read the screen). Add around 40 to 50 seconds to those times, perhaps a minute and you'd have their (approximate) C2 times. One nice thing about the C2s is that you have to have it verified by code to put it up as a record. You can't just make stuff up, though certain gyms try.
One of the women in our club is one of the top European rowers. She did a 1:30 something legit 500m (because she knows how to program and validate) at her gym. She wasn't in the top 10. The lowest score was allegedly a 1:07 -- which is BS crazy. No one did that. But it was for a prize and people lie. The woman in our club would destroy them in a sanctioned race. She holds the fastest 500m in the world this year, at least verified on a C2.0 -
weatherking2019 wrote: »Yesterday at Orangetheory was 2000 meters row benchmark. (my location)
Average for women 29 and under was 6.95
women 30-39 6.96
women 40-49 7.34
women 50+ 7.83
Average for men 29 and under was 7.99
men 30-39 6.36
men 40-49 6.45
men 50+ 8.23
Does your OT use Water Rowers, or Concept 2? (Asking because in my understanding, the splits/times are not comparable between the two.)
Water rower! Sorry didn't see this@AnnPT771 -
I think you have gotten some excellent comments here.
But, let me just reiterate what was suggested: That you try slowing down your stroke rate, from the 28 strokes per minute shown on your monitor in the picture, to 18 to 20 s/min.
By slowing your stroke rate down, you can focus more on your form and power.
Why is that important? Because without good form, you'll never get your best power.
There are two factors that determine how fast/far you go on a boat. (Or in this case, on an erg.) One is how fast you stroke. The other is how powerful your strokes are.
You need both to row as best you can.
Most people focus on developing form and power first, because it does not do you much good to row very fast if you are just flailing around. But, if you are getting good power with each stroke ... and then you pick up the pace (aka, the stroke rate) ... then BOOM! You are really traveling.1
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