Back squat alternative (hack squat vs leg press machine?

CeeBeeSlim
CeeBeeSlim Posts: 1,348 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
I’m on my own tomorrow - had my last personal training session yesterday and the one thing that still makes me a little anxious is the barbell back squat - mostly because I’m afraid I’ll hurt my lower back - been there and my trainer has given me great lessons on form - just still nervous. I’ve researched and read different things - nothing is as good as the free weight squat, the hack machine will hurt your knees, leg press offers no core work, or either is just as good - especially if you’re prone to lower back issues. Anyone with experience? The actual move is a barbell back squat to a box. Thanks for any advice!

Replies

  • sgt1372
    sgt1372 Posts: 3,997 Member
    Seem like you answeredyour own question.

    Free wt squats are best

    If you areworried about hurting yourself doing them alone, here are acouple of suggestions:

    1) use less wt w/the safety bar set where yoy'd touch the box w/your butt,

    2) use the same or more wt w/the var set above where you'd touch the box,. Or
    .
    3) use a Smith machine instead of a rack w/whatever wt you feel confortable liftibg
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    I don't back squat due to safety and inability to get the bar on my back. I don't have a rack or stand. Instead I do Zercher squats, dumbbell, kettlebell, single leg (including Bulgarian Split Squats), cable squats. This works best for me and my goals. Could I have made more progress with back squats in my program for the past 6+ years? Maybe. Maybe not. But I don't see a benefit for my particular goals.

    If you want to continue and enjoy doing them, go for it... use a safety rack, don't go close to failure. If they make you really nervous despite all that, you can definitely substitute.
  • CeeBeeSlim
    CeeBeeSlim Posts: 1,348 Member
    @sgt1372 Thanks for the suggestions. The Smith machine was an option I thought of - actually found a video to use - but was among the few I found that actually suggested the Smith machine. A relative newbie here, so not sure what all the negative comments re using the Smith were about. Here’s the video I was going to use as my guide:

    https://youtu.be/DUWK_gKcRCc

    @sardelsa - this is helpful! You’ll recognize this move - it’s one of the first moves in SC Gluteal Goddess. It’s clear I have more options to choose from then. Would you say you the alternatives you mention are better than any machine - and may be the case with any move - choose free weight over any machine - always?
  • DancingMoosie
    DancingMoosie Posts: 8,619 Member
    I used to have chronic low back pain. I think losing weight and strength training have helped immensely. Practice with just the bar or a lighter bar until you get the form down, and keep the safeties just below the lowest part of your squat. Have you hurt your back squatting, or is it more of a chronic issue?
  • CeeBeeSlim
    CeeBeeSlim Posts: 1,348 Member
    @DancingMoosie Thanks. Make sense. Hmmm. It’s hard to say. It was a perfect storm of months of long distance driving, and once back in gym I think I overdid it by squatting and deadlifting heavier weight than I should’ve to try and lose the weight I gained on the road. Dumb. Just based on the lessons my trainer was giving me, my past form was a recipe for disaster.
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    While free weights are great and they recruit more muscles, there are benefits to machines too. I don't feel like it's an always or better than situation.

    Squats are one of those moves that I would recommend having at least one free weight variation if you can. But again some people don't squat at all and get along fine. In fact Bret has a new very physique focused program with no squats at all (gasp!!) So in the end it really depends on your goals and what you are trying to get out of it. I do think the back squat is an amazing lift but you also have to feel comfortable and safe while you workout.

    So while I would recommend trying to follow the program best you can, substituting one squat variation for another shouldn't be an issue unless you are trying to get stronger in your back squat. In this instance you can do a dumbbell or kettlebell box squat or even try a single leg variation. Smith machine is fine too if you want to try. I don't hate the Smith I wish I had access to one, I would personally get more use out of it vs having a rack.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    Goblet squats are a great alternative to back squats.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmsejEOeMpY
  • CeeBeeSlim
    CeeBeeSlim Posts: 1,348 Member
    @Theoldguy1 and @sardelsa. Thanks to you both! The goblet squat and plate loaded lever machines were among some suggested alternatives to the barbell back squat based on a Reddit thread I just researched which summarized one of Bret’s podcasts on his new training program. There was an attachment to a video on how he uses
    the press to activate the glutes, too. I clearly have lots of options and this will keep things interesting!
  • dougii
    dougii Posts: 679 Member
    Doctor told me I should never do a BB back squat again - unless of course I like the feeling of the pinched nerve in my neck :( Because squats start all of my lifting routines I switched it up and started doing goblet squats and compound squats w/dumbbells. Google "squats" and you will find a whole realm of squat variations that do not require a bar on your back.
  • sgt1372
    sgt1372 Posts: 3,997 Member
    CeeBeeSlim wrote: »
    @sgt1372 Thanks for the suggestions. The Smith machine was an option I thought of - actually found a video to use - but was among the few I found that actually suggested the Smith machine. A relative newbie here, so not sure what all the negative comments re using the Smith were about.

    I only suggested the Smith machine because you seemed to be mainly concerned about your safety in doing back squats on your own

    While the Smith machine is convenient and provides important safety features, the way it is designed is not as "good" for full muscle development because it limits your range of motion and does some of the work for you.

    For example, in doing a free weight squat, you have to use your upper body, core and lower body to simply hold the bar in balance without dropping it while doing the squat.

    This something that you will not have to do when using the Smith machine when doing a squat, which is why it is easier to do a Smith vs free wt squat.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    1. Back squats are not dangerous unless somebody is going to drop kick you while squatting or you drop weight on your toes.
    2. Evidence suggests getting hurt is 99% poor load management and not a specic movement or "form". Form is way over emphasized as far as the cause of injury which there is no established evidence of. If your load is too heavy during a squat or accumulation over time, then injury risk is higher. It saddens me that fitness industry and so called "experts" nocebo people into thinking a movement is dangerous. We as humans adapt incredibly and as long as we manage the load we are at low injury risk.
    3. I would not recommend substituting anything in place of squats within a well written program randomly without experienced advice or mindfully educating yourself on how to program. It goes back to load management and recovery. There is a different loads and recovery from two separate lifts that should be accounted for.
    4. There are certainly other movements that can get you strong or experience a hypertrophic response in the right conditions. If you plan on doing different movements, I suggest following a program with those main movements.
    5. It's been my experience that a back that is prone to injuries is usually undertrained and/or is reflecting poor load management to strengthen it relative to it's strength and adaptations.
    6. If you like you can post a vid of your squat on my "form thread" and I will be happy to critique any adjustments that might be useful.
  • CeeBeeSlim
    CeeBeeSlim Posts: 1,348 Member
    @Chieflrg Thanks! While I can’t point to the exact move(s) that caused my back issue, I would bet you’re right. I’m a newbie to the terms but “poor load management” is just another way of saying lifting too much weight WITH poor form, or just too much weight period. I’m starting Strong Curves, so won’t stop squatting in general, just was anxious about the back squat in particular. I’ll see if I can get someone to video me. Thanks for the offer!
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    CeeBeeSlim wrote: »
    @Chieflrg Thanks! While I can’t point to the exact move(s) that caused my back issue, I would bet you’re right. I’m a newbie to the terms but “poor load management” is just another way of saying lifting too much weight WITH poor form, or just too much weight period. I’m starting Strong Curves, so won’t stop squatting in general, just was anxious about the back squat in particular. I’ll see if I can get someone to video me. Thanks for the offer!

    Load management is not specifically about one lift. It is about the accumulation and hopefully dissipation of stress over many sessions.

    There is not a universal definition of form. We are human and have different proportions and strength adaptations.

    I know people that appear to have horrendous form of squatting/deadlifting for years and never once experienced a back issue. I also have known lifters that appear perfect and have back issues.

    Looking at our programming on how we respond and recover as individuals is very important. Movement will improve as we practice more reps over time If we put The right weight on the bar and recover adequately.

    Current evidence suggests that our "form" is not the culprit of pain or issues.
  • SnifterPug
    SnifterPug Posts: 746 Member
    Maybe have a go at a landmine squat?
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    SnifterPug wrote: »
    Maybe have a go at a landmine squat?

    I'm actually considering a Landmine with a Landmine stand at the moment because my right knee is structurally garbage, but I'd like to do more strength work and the barbell is out of the question for me. I can do Goblet squats well and think the Landmine looks relatively safe for me. For around $250, you can get a pretty nice setup at home as well, depending on how cheap you find the weights, barbell.
  • SnifterPug
    SnifterPug Posts: 746 Member
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    SnifterPug wrote: »
    Maybe have a go at a landmine squat?

    I'm actually considering a Landmine with a Landmine stand at the moment because my right knee is structurally garbage, but I'd like to do more strength work and the barbell is out of the question for me. I can do Goblet squats well and think the Landmine looks relatively safe for me. For around $250, you can get a pretty nice setup at home as well, depending on how cheap you find the weights, barbell.

    There is SO much stuff you can do with a Landmine set up. You can even do single side deadlifts, which challenge the core beautifully. Our gym has just got one and it is my new favourite thing.

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