Diet, what is falling off the wagon?
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richiechowns
Posts: 155 Member
I've been tracking my food and macros for 14 weeks or so now, I'm on a mostly wholefood plant based diet, have had maybe 2 beers in that time (stubbies, not pints) and eaten fairly consistently well.
At time I might eat two Nakd bars (for those in the UK) a day and I wonder how much that is like falling off the wagon?
What do people class as bad, just out of interest? I have considered taking the leap into increase calories while I do the P90X3 routine, but I don't want to potentially add weight through fat if I increase calories. At present my stats are;
5'11"
68kg
Around 14% BF, which I'd like to reduce while adding muscle.
At time I might eat two Nakd bars (for those in the UK) a day and I wonder how much that is like falling off the wagon?
What do people class as bad, just out of interest? I have considered taking the leap into increase calories while I do the P90X3 routine, but I don't want to potentially add weight through fat if I increase calories. At present my stats are;
5'11"
68kg
Around 14% BF, which I'd like to reduce while adding muscle.
2
Replies
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I don't classify foods as good or bad. Unless it is something with trans fats I suppose. There are some foods I probably wouldn't have everyday and would be better off in moderation, an example of that would be fish that contain mercury since I am breastfeeding. For me I classify foods higher in certain macros than others, higher or lower in nutrition, more suited to my goals vs not (not necessarily bad because my goals are always changing). Personally I am a big fan of variety and not too much of one single food item. That works best for me.
For me falling off the wagon would be no regard for my goals whatsoever for an extended period of time... no training, little regard to macros and nutrition and no care for my body.
In terms of your goals I would recommend you recomp.. eat at maintenance, get on a good lifting/(or bodyweight resistance training program if you don't have equipment) make sure you are getting enough protein (0.8-1g per lb bodyweight minimum) to help build muscle and lose fat over time. P90X3 from my understanding is more of an overall fitness program, but I don't know if it will be enough stimulation to grow muscles most optimally.10 -
I don’t outright forbid myself to eat certain foods, that is a sure way for that item to become a huge craving. I eat what I want in moderation.
For me falling off the wagon would be days/weeks of just not caring by Eating way to much, moving way too little and making overall bad choices.
Every now and then I will treat myself to a day of eating at maintenance and eating some exercise calories back so I don’t feel too restricted, but I don’t do full blown cheat meals/days right now. I’m almost halfway to my first goal and don’t want to self sabatoge.4 -
"Falling off the wagon" is all in the mind for me. As long as I'm continuing to make efforts toward reaching my goal, I've not fallen off the wagon, even if I make decisions that might set me back.7
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It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. There is diet as in the food you eat and there is diet as in an attempt to lose weight.
If you are only interested in whole food plant based as a way of eating then you have deviated.
If your primary focus is losing weight then the only thing that matters is if you are in a calorie deficit most days.
The two are not connected. You can easily gain weight eating WFPB if you end up in a calorie surplus just like you can lose weight eating nothing but Nakd bars every meal if the result is a calorie deficit.
For me there is no wagon. I require a plan that is flexible and forgiving of my imperfect human ways. I only require that I am in a calorie deficit most of the time. I do eat a lot of nutrient dense food but I also eat a lot of treat foods too. I believe that as long as I eat a decent variety of food with the majority of it being nutrient dense it doesn't matter what else I eat.8 -
I don't classify foods as good or bad. Unless it is something with trans fats I suppose. There are some foods I probably wouldn't have everyday and would be better off in moderation, an example of that would be fish that contain mercury since I am breastfeeding. For me I classify foods higher in certain macros than others, higher or lower in nutrition, more suited to my goals vs not (not necessarily bad because my goals are always changing). Personally I am a big fan of variety and not too much of one single food item. That works best for me.
For me falling off the wagon would be no regard for my goals whatsoever for an extended period of time... no training, little regard to macros and nutrition and no care for my body.
In terms of your goals I would recommend you recomp.. eat at maintenance, get on a good lifting/(or bodyweight resistance training program if you don't have equipment) make sure you are getting enough protein (0.8-1g per lb bodyweight minimum) to help build muscle and lose fat over time. P90X3 from my understanding is more of an overall fitness program, but I don't know if it will be enough stimulation to grow muscles most optimally.
I'm also doing some bodyweight work on the gymnastics rings, so hopefully the combination will work well. It's interesting to see peoples take on it, I agree that totally falling off is neglecting goals for a long period of time, just sometimes I'll eat something that is not bad really, but then go over maintenance cals.0 -
I don't classify foods as "good" or "bad." There are simply days when I meet my calorie goals and days when I don't. There are foods that I limit because the calorie density relative to how much they satisfy my appetite will make it difficult to meet my calorie goals without being hungry for a good chunk of the day, but it's not due to any moral judgement about the food. If I decide to have something like candy or potato chips (foods that frequently seem to be classified as "bad"), I don't think of it as an off-the-wagon type of thing. I've had these foods on days where I met my calorie goals. I would consider myself to be off-the-wagon if I didn't log and ate without regard to my calorie goal. That hasn't happened since I began logging in 2015 (I mean, I've had days where I ate a lot of calories -- but I still logged).
I am vegan, but it's not due to any concerns about the healthfulness of eating animal products. But that's kind of outside the realm of being on- or off-the-wagon because I never consider eating them. For my purposes, foods with animal products are categorized more like non-food than a bad food.1 -
It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. There is diet as in the food you eat and there is diet as in an attempt to lose weight.
If you are only interested in whole food plant based as a way of eating then you have deviated.
If your primary focus is losing weight then the only thing that matters is if you are in a calorie deficit most days.
The two are not connected. You can easily gain weight eating WFPB if you end up in a calorie surplus just like you can lose weight eating nothing but Nakd bars every meal if the result is a calorie deficit.
For me there is no wagon. I require a plan that is flexible and forgiving of my imperfect human ways. I only require that I am in a calorie deficit most of the time. I do eat a lot of nutrient dense food but I also eat a lot of treat foods too. I believe that as long as I eat a decent variety of food with the majority of it being nutrient dense it doesn't matter what else I eat.
I'd not say I've deviated, a Nakd bar is plant-based and wholefood, beer, well yes is a slight deviation I'll give you that but 2 small ones in 14 weeks is fairly okay.
I think it's volume. I lost 20lb in that 4 weeks to get back to my marathon race pace and now the fluctuations are small as part of an attempted recomp, but recomp in my mind is such fine lines to follow. Maintenance will always need to be in line with activities, having just done 4 weeks of intense running and increasing cals its now about settling back in. I guess it's the thought of eating loads of veg, or pasta or the odd other thing, some better for you that others, but then if they're all still fairly healthy, does it matter?
My goal is certainly not a deficit, I've been described on here as under muscled, probably through years of marathon running, so I need to stabilise a bit and recomp really.0 -
richiechowns wrote: »It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. There is diet as in the food you eat and there is diet as in an attempt to lose weight.
If you are only interested in whole food plant based as a way of eating then you have deviated.
If your primary focus is losing weight then the only thing that matters is if you are in a calorie deficit most days.
The two are not connected. You can easily gain weight eating WFPB if you end up in a calorie surplus just like you can lose weight eating nothing but Nakd bars every meal if the result is a calorie deficit.
For me there is no wagon. I require a plan that is flexible and forgiving of my imperfect human ways. I only require that I am in a calorie deficit most of the time. I do eat a lot of nutrient dense food but I also eat a lot of treat foods too. I believe that as long as I eat a decent variety of food with the majority of it being nutrient dense it doesn't matter what else I eat.
I'd not say I've deviated, a Nakd bar is plant-based and wholefood, beer, well yes is a slight deviation I'll give you that but 2 small ones in 14 weeks is fairly okay.
I think it's volume. I lost 20lb in that 4 weeks to get back to my marathon race pace and now the fluctuations are small as part of an attempted recomp, but recomp in my mind is such fine lines to follow. Maintenance will always need to be in line with activities, having just done 4 weeks of intense running and increasing cals its now about settling back in. I guess it's the thought of eating loads of veg, or pasta or the odd other thing, some better for you that others, but then if they're all still fairly healthy, does it matter?
My goal is certainly not a deficit, I've been described on here as under muscled, probably through years of marathon running, so I need to stabilise a bit and recomp really.
I do not concern myself with eating all "healthy" foods because it is unnecessary. I like to say that more nutrients than you need is more nutrients in your pee. I practice an 80/20 mentality. If the majority of my food is nutrient dense then it doesn't matter what the minority is. I also do not care as much about how I pay back active calories. I just need energy so can keep doing what I want to do.
If you are concerned about muscle mass should you be doing aggressive 4 week weight loss plans? Do you even have adequate fat stores for a recomp plan? Wouldn't a bulk and cut approach provide more reliable results?
4 -
richiechowns wrote: »It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. There is diet as in the food you eat and there is diet as in an attempt to lose weight.
If you are only interested in whole food plant based as a way of eating then you have deviated.
If your primary focus is losing weight then the only thing that matters is if you are in a calorie deficit most days.
The two are not connected. You can easily gain weight eating WFPB if you end up in a calorie surplus just like you can lose weight eating nothing but Nakd bars every meal if the result is a calorie deficit.
For me there is no wagon. I require a plan that is flexible and forgiving of my imperfect human ways. I only require that I am in a calorie deficit most of the time. I do eat a lot of nutrient dense food but I also eat a lot of treat foods too. I believe that as long as I eat a decent variety of food with the majority of it being nutrient dense it doesn't matter what else I eat.
I'd not say I've deviated, a Nakd bar is plant-based and wholefood, beer, well yes is a slight deviation I'll give you that but 2 small ones in 14 weeks is fairly okay.
I think it's volume. I lost 20lb in that 4 weeks to get back to my marathon race pace and now the fluctuations are small as part of an attempted recomp, but recomp in my mind is such fine lines to follow. Maintenance will always need to be in line with activities, having just done 4 weeks of intense running and increasing cals its now about settling back in. I guess it's the thought of eating loads of veg, or pasta or the odd other thing, some better for you that others, but then if they're all still fairly healthy, does it matter?
My goal is certainly not a deficit, I've been described on here as under muscled, probably through years of marathon running, so I need to stabilise a bit and recomp really.
I do not concern myself with eating all "healthy" foods because it is unnecessary. I like to say that more nutrients than you need is more nutrients in your pee. I practice an 80/20 mentality. If the majority of my food is nutrient dense then it doesn't matter what the minority is. I also do not care as much about how I pay back active calories. I just need energy so can keep doing what I want to do.
If you are concerned about muscle mass should you be doing aggressive 4 week weight loss plans? Do you even have adequate fat stores for a recomp plan? Wouldn't a bulk and cut approach provide more reliable results?
All questions I was asking on the recomp thread, where I was unsure if I could recomp as well as someone who had more fat mass to lose.
When you say 'aggressive 4 week weight loss plan' are you referring to the 4 week running challenge? This was a work challenge for charity, so I agreed to take part due to my history of running big miles. At the beginning of the 14 weeks, when I'd gained a fair amount of weight over the months of not doing much, I went aggressive because I'd not really sat down and thought it through. So I did T25 which is HIIT type fast stuff, then ate at a deficit, but now I'm at 'racing weight' in running terms, but not wanting to do marathons for a few years but get more into calisthenics and building strength and physique. Bulks and cuts seem maybe more suitable than a recomp, but it's been a long time since I've done that and the bulks I did when I was younger were a bit dirty..0 -
To me, falling off the wagon means gaining back more than 10 % of the weight lost. Anything short of that I consider "the ups and downs of dieting". It's futile to demand of onesself that one be an infallible diet being. No one ever has perfect diet performance for more than a few weeks. Those who require of themselves that they be perfect dieters are the first to give up when things like "I just really crave another Nakd bar" intrude on our well-laid plans.2
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A very smart person here in the olden days said there is no wagon, so we can't fall off it.
Sure, we're overall moving in positive directions, negative directions, or at a standstill, but that can change in an instant. No wagon.
I don't think about food the way you seem to be doing.
I think it's important to get good overall nutrition day in and day out, and to eat within my calorie goal on the overwhelming majority of days. I researched and decided on what I think are minimums for protein, fats, and veggie/fruit servings, and routinely hit those. (I go for 1g protein per pound of estimated LBM, being female 0.35-0.45g fats prefering MUFAs/PUFAs and O3/O6 balance; and a bare minimum of 5+ varied, colorful veggie/fruit servings daily, preferably 10+.) I'll occasionally go over my calorie goal (I calorie bank as a strategy), and in relatively rare cases, way over calorie goal (now that I'm in year 4+ of maintenance), while paying attention to scale weight trend over periods of weeks.
Once all of that nutrition is lined up for the day, anything I want to spend remaining calories on is fair game, including chocolate, other desserts, alcohol, or generally anything that isn't poisonous **, allergenic for me, or contraindicated by some health condition or medication. (Those things would be "bad" in my book. Otherwise, I don't think in terms of "bad foods" and "good foods", because I think that conceptual frame distracts from the much more important central goals of good overall nutrition and calories that cause healthy body weight.)
** OK, in practice, alcohol actually *is* poisonous. I stick with moderate amounts, but a glass of wine or a beer or something is not super-rare, once my nutritional goals are in good shape.
But you know what would be bad, in my book? Significantly increasing calorie output by adding something intense like P90X3 without adjusting fueling accordingly, when already at 14% body fat, as a male. Sure, don't add calories in excess of maintenance calories, or you'll gain fat. But don't increase exercise to create silly-fast lost, because you can increase health risk, which would be "bad". In this and other posts, it seems like you fear calories to an odd degree. They're fuel, not poison. You need fuel.3 -
A very smart person here in the olden days said there is no wagon, so we can't fall off it.
Sure, we're overall moving in positive directions, negative directions, or at a standstill, but that can change in an instant. No wagon.
I don't think about food the way you seem to be doing.
I think it's important to get good overall nutrition day in and day out, and to eat within my calorie goal on the overwhelming majority of days. I researched and decided on what I think are minimums for protein, fats, and veggie/fruit servings, and routinely hit those. (I go for 1g protein per pound of estimated LBM, being female 0.35-0.45g fats prefering MUFAs/PUFAs and O3/O6 balance; and a bare minimum of 5+ varied, colorful veggie/fruit servings daily, preferably 10+.) I'll occasionally go over my calorie goal (I calorie bank as a strategy), and in relatively rare cases, way over calorie goal (now that I'm in year 4+ of maintenance), while paying attention to scale weight trend over periods of weeks.
Once all of that nutrition is lined up for the day, anything I want to spend remaining calories on is fair game, including chocolate, other desserts, alcohol, or generally anything that isn't poisonous **, allergenic for me, or contraindicated by some health condition or medication. (Those things would be "bad" in my book. Otherwise, I don't think in terms of "bad foods" and "good foods", because I think that conceptual frame distracts from the much more important central goals of good overall nutrition and calories that cause healthy body weight.)
** OK, in practice, alcohol actually *is* poisonous. I stick with moderate amounts, but a glass of wine or a beer or something is not super-rare, once my nutritional goals are in good shape.
But you know what would be bad, in my book? Significantly increasing calorie output by adding something intense like P90X3 without adjusting fueling accordingly, when already at 14% body fat, as a male. Sure, don't add calories in excess of maintenance calories, or you'll gain fat. But don't increase exercise to create silly-fast lost, because you can increase health risk, which would be "bad". In this and other posts, it seems like you fear calories to an odd degree. They're fuel, not poison. You need fuel.
Hi @AnnPT77, thanks for the reply. I honestly don't fear calories, I don't overly stress about it either, I'm just interested in experiences of others in their journies.
In the recent past I didn't track anything, I'd always say a diet is what you eat, not something you go on. When running loads I was never really fluctuating much but then I didn't weigh myself for over 2 years! I'd be interested in the science of running or training methods to get quicker.
Now with a break from running, looking at food and trying to ensure I get the proper nutrition, I'm trying to get set. Maintenance to me is something I'm try to define because I'm not overly ridged in my exercise plans.
As you talk about macros, I'm interested in that and I think maybe that is what I'm getting my head around a bit still, as being vegan I do tend to hit protein but go over more on fat. I don't think this is an issue as such as I'm able to bring intensity to workouts and feel good. Recomp in itself is steady and a slow process, so after a short time it's worth checking in to see if I'm doing is right?0 -
For me, falling off the wagon pretty means abandoning the journey and binge eating a greasy takeaway without any attempt at portion control, feeling full of regret and then continuing to eat crap because you've already eaten over, so why not eat really over? And then staying in that downward spiral until the weight creeps on and on and again... It's actually that mental flick of the switch of 'what's the point?' rather than the food itself, but the trigger tends to be pretty damn fatty and calorie-laden.
It's definitely not eating two Nakd bars. I've never eaten one because I'm allergic to them, but they often give them out in race packs, so if other runners are supposed to eat them, I can't imagine they're that bad for you. Actually, you said you were a runner, so you're the target audience!
If you were to eat something with limited nutritional value like... oh, I don't know, a chocolate cake... it still wouldn't be falling off the wagon if you ate healthily for the rest of the day. Falling off really is the start of a spiral - it's not having one nice thing in moderation and then happily resuming your lifestyle of mostly healthy eating.1
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