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why cant some people realise that to lose weight i i have to be in a calorie deficit??
trulyhealy
Posts: 242 Member
in Debate Club
i was arguing with a grown woman who’s done slimming world and lost weight and we had an argument about how you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight and she wasn’t having it.
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
7
Replies
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If she was firm in her beliefs there was no point in arguing with her.15
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Don't let it get to you.5
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Things I don't discuss with acquaintances:
Politics
Religion
Covid19
Abortion
Gun Control
Weight loss and everything that goes along with it
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cmriverside wrote: »Things I don't discuss with acquaintances:
Politics
Religion
Covid19
Abortion
Gun Control
Weight loss and everything that goes along with it
she’s not an acquaintance we talk about weight loss a lot and i thought she would understand the facts since she’s lost weight3 -
Well now you know.
3 -
If she was firm in her beliefs there was no point in arguing with her.
Agree. But to the OP, I feel you. I have become verrry cautious as to who I tell I about my weight loss efforts/calorie restriction. It seems wild, but I find more people telling me "you can cheat" regarding my dietary changes than "good for you on taking control of this!"
My body has historically told me that "YOU NEED TO NOT EAT THIS MUCH AND THEN YOU WILL LOSE THIS EXTRA WEIGHT!" Sooooo I'm going to listen to my bod rather than the metabolically/physiologically different bodied opinions around me.
Good luck and keep it up!7 -
trulyhealy wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Things I don't discuss with acquaintances:
Politics
Religion
Covid19
Abortion
Gun Control
Weight loss and everything that goes along with it
she’s not an acquaintance we talk about weight loss a lot and i thought she would understand the facts since she’s lost weight
It does not worth that way though. Some, probably not many, people are able to lose weight while believing the wrong things. That is good news for many of us though. Calorie deficits can happen even if the person doesn't realize it is happening or trying to directly make it happen.
I believe, and it is a weird thing to wrap your head around, that if you go through a long period of steady weight gain it is extremely likely that there were also days you lost weight. It it just that gaining days greatly outnumbered losing ones.8 -
trulyhealy wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Things I don't discuss with acquaintances:
Politics
Religion
Covid19
Abortion
Gun Control
Weight loss and everything that goes along with it
she’s not an acquaintance we talk about weight loss a lot and i thought she would understand the facts since she’s lost weight
As you know from this example, people sometimes lose weight without actually *counting* calories. Maybe there are prescribed diets, or point systems, or some other mechanism. You and I know that behind the scenes, those methods are causing the person to be at a calorie deficit, and that that's why they lose weight.
It's not unusual, especially with the commercialized/marketed programs, for the program to say that "calorie counting doesn't work", and to have reasons why it doesn't. Sometimes there's a kernel of reality in those reasons, but they're not fully accurate. (Sometimes we dedicated, committed calorie counters can act the same way about other methods, too. 😆). Slimming World is a profit making enterprise, isn't it? (We don't have it here.) Maybe it has some of that "calorie counting doesn't work" stuff in its materials.
Anyway, if people don't count calories, they can be very calorie unaware. Some people here on MFP shift their eating to a more "whole foods/healthy" ways of eating, and find it "so much food". Some of the commercial programs (maybe Slimming World?) try to shift people more toward more whole/healthy foods, too, and people not calorie counting maybe think they must be eating more calories because they're eating more food (as it seems to them)?
I understand your frustration, but I think sadly people are not going to have a good understanding of methods they themselves don't explicitly use. There may indeed be certain parts of this that you won't be able to discuss with your friend, and stay on pleasant terms., sadly. Maybe some parts can be talked about without argument, though, and still maintain some dialog?
Sorry you're experiencing this.8 -
I hear you. I've run in to a lot of this myself. I think a lot of it comes down to it seems too "simple" to people. The reality is that counting is hard to do correctly, day in, day out, for long enough to make a meaningful loss.
I don't think the average person has much of a concept of what a calorie is, beyond the food label. If you don't have a strong understanding of how the biology of metabolism works, calories can be really mysterious and confusing. The idea of more food vs. more calories can be hard to grasp, as we typically first look at volume/weight as an easy indicator of quantity, though it can be very deceiving.
I think Ann above hit the nail on the head. If folks aren't using calorie counting and seeing its effects first hand, they are a lot less likely to accept that it works. There is also SO MUCH bad information out there about diet and weight loss. If someone already has misconceptions, you are starting from a disadvantaged point. You are in a position to not only correct their misunderstandings, but are also often implying that what other people they trust (often more than you) have told them is true. Cognitive biases make changing these opinions very difficult to do.1 -
trulyhealy wrote: »
I agree. I have so many relatives who claim they cant lose weight and "counting calories doesn't work". Only (insert random diet trend that ultimately works by lowering calories) works for a few weeks I lose a ton then nothing and I give up!
They cant seem to grasp the concept. Or the concept that these "diets" cause a lot of water and bulk weight loss in the beginning then are frustrated when they start having a NORMAL 1lb loss a week and give up.
Saw this the other day and did a *facepalm*... lots of comments on it too with people believing that different timing of IF will somehow target different areas of fat.
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I try not to get involved or push if it's someone I know. If they ask me what I do and how I'm able to eat what I eat I will explain it. If they challenge me or disagree, I drop it. I'd rather not start a fight.3
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Unfortunately, we live in a world where a group of people think the earth is flat, they think a global pandemic is a big hoax, they think paid actors staged the Sandy Hook tragedy, and a laundry list of other beliefs that are objectively stupid.
And so it's no surprise that people don't understand energy balance.11 -
Ultimately, the answer is epistemology. I find most people aren't terribly concerned with knowing things in a way that moves them towards eliminating false beliefs and adopting true beliefs, asking what tests those beliefs, doing what is rational. Rather they are concerned with rationalizing, looking for things that rationalize exist beliefs to continue to feel that what one believes is true stays true.
Ultimately for claims that fall under science, the thing to ask someone is, "can you tell me now what evidence, what observation(s) would need to exist, hypothetically, to show you that your beliefs are wrong?" If they can't tell you that ahead of time, they don't really have a workable model in their mind, and it very well might not be worth discussing further.5 -
I think it might be because these commercial diets like Slimming World lead people to think that there is some sort of magic to the diet itself, rather than it being essentially a method of calorie reduction. People talk about it being the diet where you can eat endless pasta or a whole chicken at a sitting, when really the rules just discourage people from eating too much. (Who goes to boil up some pasta for a snack when they've got an apple right there? Instead of calories for the non-free foods, they have points (which are based on calories).
It's based on calorie reduction through types of food (low-fat food from a list, generally has to be cooked) and portion size (fill 1/3 plate with low-cal veg and the rest with food from a list), and calorie counting for the points.
I think it would be easy for somebody to think they were eating in a surplus because it looks like there's no calorie counting, and I know people sometimes say they are eating more (because they are having to eat more low-cal veg, and low-fat foods, so there is more bulk).4 -
Some of us need to repair our bodies before they will conform. me for 1 so some can and do have medical issues which make weight loss impossible.2
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I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................3
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I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
Impossible doesn't mean what you think it means. You, me and everybody else can't create energy from nothing.
If you said inadvisable, inappropriate or difficult that's very, very different to impossible. Words have meanings and if you choose the wrong ones don't be surprised when you get a negative reaction.20 -
eattrainprogress wrote: »Unfortunately, we live in a world where a group of people think the earth is flat, they think a global pandemic is a big hoax, they think paid actors staged the Sandy Hook tragedy, and a laundry list of other beliefs that are objectively stupid.
And so it's no surprise that people don't understand energy balance.
Ginga Ninja, aka The Head Potato, is that you?!?2 -
I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
Yes. While there is every possibility there is a miscommunication between you and them, if you are accurately reporting their analysis, then yes, the people do know at least one thing your advisers don't. Like if you purported your medical researchers said "the earth is flat", they'd be just as wrong about that despite their years of medical school. By the same standard, if your advisers are literally saying a body can't lose weight in an actual calorie deficit, they are know at least one thing less than people that say calorie deficits cause weight loss.
Not to mention, for all they learn about very specific forms of biology, plenty of doctors do believe wrong things. There are plenty of doctors that deny evolution despite the fact that without it, it makes no sense that they ever study animal models in addition to humans, or that a test on a chimpanzee is more reliable about what will happen from a treatment than the same done on rats, and both better than a study done in iguanas.12 -
I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
well we dont actually know what your medical advisors said -we only have a second hand version of that via you.
My long experience of working in medical care has shown me that many patients misunderstand what they are told
Just today somebody said their doctor had told them to stop taking all their medication - there was no record in the patients notes of this and the doctor confirmed he had said no such thing.
12 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I suppose those of you who disagree know much better than my medical advisers.........................................
Yes. While there is every possibility there is a miscommunication between you and them, if you are accurately reporting their analysis, then yes, the people do know at least one thing your advisers don't. Like if you purported your medical researchers said "the earth is flat", they'd be just as wrong about that despite their years of medical school. By the same standard, if your advisers are literally saying a body can't lose weight in an actual calorie deficit, they are know at least one thing less than people that say calorie deficits cause weight loss.
Not to mention, for all they learn about very specific forms of biology, plenty of doctors do believe wrong things. There are plenty of doctors that deny evolution despite the fact that without it, it makes no sense that they ever study animal models in addition to humans, or that a test on a chimpanzee is more reliable about what will happen from a treatment than the same done on rats, and both better than a study done in iguanas.
In fact, some of the most prominent voices in the "woo" community are medical doctors, so the answer to the question "Oh, you think you know more than doctors?" can easily be "Yes, I do know more than some of them, at least on this particular subject!"10 -
There are situation where in-depth medical investigations can help a person regain good working internal order. Just because I had the misfortune not to fit into the didactic boxes our system demands does not mean that others will not have similar difficulties.
Food intolerance testing can be very difficult to obtain access too over here. Food intolerances are a growing problematic area for genetic, familial and environmental reasons. Dietary internal disturbance is a primary way for many to hold on to weight because of the "inflammation", for want of a better term for the debris they create. Genetic issues, true rather rare, things like Prada Willy for one and though I look on Cushing's as endocrine in origin it too can be Genetic. Epigenetics is an area of fact which so far has not trickled down to the local medic as yet.
Doctors are equally likely to fall for subjectivity as us ordinary mortals, telling everyone they should eat less and move more when there are food intolerances are likely involved, when a more interested conversation would have shown the base problems to be less than common.
Take for instance the young doctor, who. He, told me the very angry blue boil standing 3/4 of an inch away from my red and swollen forehead, which was painful beyond my belief and closing my eyes, needed, NO treatment because, "You are only concerned about your looks". Totally distraught I went home, got out the sewing machine, to use my anger constructively making a skirt. In his eyes I was over reacting, my regular family doctor had retired. Only to rip the head off said boil, with the sewing machine arm which pulls the thread from the upper reel (at least on all the UK sewing machines I know and own.) A scream and Blood everywhere. Had he lanced it instead of being totally sexist! It could have been far less traumatic. His attitude framed my view of doctors. Or the other male doctor not so young, who knew all female pain was "normal" when on a while, it was actually a cancer after an interim one has ignored the results of a scan, saying, its ok! Though the person doing the scan said it needed more investigation. My point is, there are times to push for support, we can't all fit permitted boxes.
If calorie counting does not work, when you weigh and measure properly, following the guidelines to the letter, then you need a more engaged, more interested and thoughtful Doctor to help, rather than having the, Eat less, Move more, mantra dinned into your head yet again. I've only ever sought help when I could not change things for myself. Ready to answer questions and ask questions, knowing my facts. Time constrains often mean you are being shown the door for being totally "inadequate" when its the system which is wanting. I've met one Doctor I respect in 70 years, he was not on a box ticking exercise. He knew I would not be allowed back to the regional centre, it was he who gave me the knowledge to find what worked for me.
My experiences can't be that unrepresentative of at least some. I had the right to better health, so do the others. I have it, I want nothing less for the others too.
3 -
Prada Willy syndrome does not disprove CICO - it is a syndrome where people's hunger cures are out of whack
( amongst other traits such as intellectual disabilty) - and thus they eat way beyond what they need.
If their access to food is restrained, they maintain weight in the same way everyone else does.
not sure what your abscess anecdote proves - that doctors sometimes get it wrong and are subject to personal bias?
Sure, that can happen.
But it doesnt disprove CICO- it says nothing about it at all.
Everyone has the right to better health - again, that says nothing about CICO.
and of course get help for any medical issues - but the idea that you are a special snowflake for whom CICO does not apply??
No, not so.20 -
trulyhealy wrote: »i was arguing with a grown woman who’s done slimming world and lost weight and we had an argument about how you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight and she wasn’t having it.
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
I was unfriended but a woman who said calories have nothing to do with losing weight
She told me that a deficit put you in "starvation mode" (which is a myth) ...............
I told her to check out the Minnesota Experiment and she called me a few choice names and unfriended me...…..
YES! You have to eat less than you burn to lose weight...………. seems simple enough, right?
9 -
If she is losing weight by eating at a surplus then she is either exercising too much or not aware of how much she is eating. Both are not sustainable and she will be prone gain some weight back.0
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Why does it bother you that someone doesn't agree with you? I can think of lots of other things more worthy of my stress.10
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trulyhealy wrote: »i was arguing with a grown woman who’s done slimming world and lost weight and we had an argument about how you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight and she wasn’t having it.
she was like well i lose weight while eating in a surplus!! well you clearly weren’t in a surplus and how would you know if you were if you don’t count calories??
i tried explaining calories in bc calories out she was like “well i’m on slimming world and we don’t use that”
it made me SO mad like what’s not clicking
Well, Slimming World would lose out on the money they make off of her if she was to realize that weight loss is extremely simple. And they use all kinds of little tools to keep their clients boggled. She has obviously fallen for it hook line and sinker, but people like her are the reason that diets don't work - especially long term. Since she has NO idea how she is losing weight, she will have no idea how to keep it off once she has reached her goal. This also benefits Slimming World - the most important revenue for any company is REPEAT CUSTOMERS.7 -
There are situation where in-depth medical investigations can help a person regain good working internal order. Just because I had the misfortune not to fit into the didactic boxes our system demands does not mean that others will not have similar difficulties.
Food intolerance testing can be very difficult to obtain access too over here. Food intolerances are a growing problematic area for genetic, familial and environmental reasons. Dietary internal disturbance is a primary way for many to hold on to weight because of the "inflammation", for want of a better term for the debris they create. Genetic issues, true rather rare, things like Prada Willy for one and though I look on Cushing's as endocrine in origin it too can be Genetic. Epigenetics is an area of fact which so far has not trickled down to the local medic as yet.
Doctors are equally likely to fall for subjectivity as us ordinary mortals, telling everyone they should eat less and move more when there are food intolerances are likely involved, when a more interested conversation would have shown the base problems to be less than common.
Take for instance the young doctor, who. He, told me the very angry blue boil standing 3/4 of an inch away from my red and swollen forehead, which was painful beyond my belief and closing my eyes, needed, NO treatment because, "You are only concerned about your looks". Totally distraught I went home, got out the sewing machine, to use my anger constructively making a skirt. In his eyes I was over reacting, my regular family doctor had retired. Only to rip the head off said boil, with the sewing machine arm which pulls the thread from the upper reel (at least on all the UK sewing machines I know and own.) A scream and Blood everywhere. Had he lanced it instead of being totally sexist! It could have been far less traumatic. His attitude framed my view of doctors. Or the other male doctor not so young, who knew all female pain was "normal" when on a while, it was actually a cancer after an interim one has ignored the results of a scan, saying, its ok! Though the person doing the scan said it needed more investigation. My point is, there are times to push for support, we can't all fit permitted boxes.
If calorie counting does not work, when you weigh and measure properly, following the guidelines to the letter, then you need a more engaged, more interested and thoughtful Doctor to help, rather than having the, Eat less, Move more, mantra dinned into your head yet again. I've only ever sought help when I could not change things for myself. Ready to answer questions and ask questions, knowing my facts. Time constrains often mean you are being shown the door for being totally "inadequate" when its the system which is wanting. I've met one Doctor I respect in 70 years, he was not on a box ticking exercise. He knew I would not be allowed back to the regional centre, it was he who gave me the knowledge to find what worked for me.
My experiences can't be that unrepresentative of at least some. I had the right to better health, so do the others. I have it, I want nothing less for the others too.
You said you it's impossible for you to lose weight. It is impossible for you NOT to as long as you eat in a deficit day after day. It might be DIFFICULT (not impossible) for you and your doctor to find this number, but it exists.10 -
has anyone ever seen a photo of a person from a POW camp - and that person is not extremely underweight???
Now I am not suggesting anyone aim for that - but given the huge numbers of people interrred in such places - does it not strike you as likely at least some would have conditions making weight loss impossible, if such conditions exist?
and yet there were none.
Now it is possible your condition is so rare that nobody out of hundreds of thousands of people in POW camps and famines in 3rd world countries has ever had it and so therefore none of them did not lose weight - but I somehow doubt it.8
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