Overhead Press
zamphir66
Posts: 582 Member
I've been doing SL 5x5 again, for about a month now, and my old nemesis has reared its head. The Overhead Press is far and away the most difficult exercise of the 5 for me. The other 4, I'm progressing really easily, and will probably continue to do so for at least another 6 weeks. OHP --> I've failed already.
I knew this would be difficult going in, so I purposely changed the 5x5 to 3x5 for that exercise. It hasn't mattered. I barely managed my first 5 reps at 65 lbs. Pretty sure I was cheating on the last one. Second set? Forget about it. I got the bar above my head once, no more. I don't know what it is about that movement. I guess it's just a set of muscles and motions that have never been developed in me in any way.
I am in a slight calorie deficit. I'm also getting plenty of sleep and at least 100g of protein every day.
What I'm thinking of doing -- and asking for guidance about -- is to sort of break this compound movement down into its constituent muscles and work on each of them for several weeks, then come back and start over with just the bar. But I don't know if that's a good idea or not.
I knew this would be difficult going in, so I purposely changed the 5x5 to 3x5 for that exercise. It hasn't mattered. I barely managed my first 5 reps at 65 lbs. Pretty sure I was cheating on the last one. Second set? Forget about it. I got the bar above my head once, no more. I don't know what it is about that movement. I guess it's just a set of muscles and motions that have never been developed in me in any way.
I am in a slight calorie deficit. I'm also getting plenty of sleep and at least 100g of protein every day.
What I'm thinking of doing -- and asking for guidance about -- is to sort of break this compound movement down into its constituent muscles and work on each of them for several weeks, then come back and start over with just the bar. But I don't know if that's a good idea or not.
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Replies
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That's pretty normal for OHP. Most people stall a bit fairly quickly on this movement. Fractional weight plates help a lot (5 lb jumps are a lot for OHP).0
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OHP really relies on good technique. The last time I ran Stronglifts I got up to 155lbs for 3x5. You have to make sure you are keeping everything tight. Squeeze your glutes like you are trying to hold in a #2. I also found that having my hands closer to eachother helped me tremendously.0
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Earlier, I was going to say that I thought OHP was the "simplest" of the 5 big lifts, so I didn't think form was a big issue -- but it seems I may be 100% wrong on that, based on some further reading.
Anyway, what about these remedial exercises: https://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/4-exercises-to-improve-your-overhead-press
A lot of other advice I've seen revolves around subtle variations on the OHP itself, such as a seated press or a behind-the-head starting position. My sense is that those are more intended for folks who already have a good, strong press and are wanting to get past a plateau. I'm not even at a plateau. I'm still on the ground. So I think the more isolation-type exercises are what I want. Or maybe I just don't know.0 -
how big of jumps are you making between sessions?
press really benefits from smaller 1-2 pound jumps...0 -
Gyms rarely have anything smaller than 2.5 lb. (One usually has to purchase and bring their own smaller plates. typically ~$20ish on amazon for a pair of 1.25 lb plates).0 -
Did you fail at 65lbs on three workouts then deload? If you did, and worked back up to 65lbs and failed again. Then I would buy fractional plates and add only 2lbs per workout.0
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Overhead press is one of those lifts where you either need microloading plates or need to continually adjust rep & set schemes, even as a novice.
To the former end, I use 5/16 chain to make microloading "plates" - each link is one ounce, and I made sets for 5/8 lb each and 1.25 lb each with a short length.1 -
SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
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SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
Stronglifts is meant for beginners. Beginner lifters can progress much more quickly than an intermediate or advanced lifter.0 -
SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
Stronglifts is meant for beginners. Beginner lifters can progress much more quickly than an intermediate or advanced lifter.
Yes.
And?0 -
SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
Stronglifts is meant for beginners. Beginner lifters can progress much more quickly than an intermediate or advanced lifter.
Yes.
And?
He obviously is a beginner, so Stronglifts is a good starting point for him. It can be ran for more than a couple of months. That's why you change the rep and set scheme once you plateu. Once you can't successfully do X weight for 5x5, you change to 3x5, 3x3, etc.1 -
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SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
Stronglifts is meant for beginners. Beginner lifters can progress much more quickly than an intermediate or advanced lifter.
Yes.
And?
He obviously is a beginner, so Stronglifts is a good starting point for him. It can be ran for more than a couple of months. That's why you change the rep and set scheme once you plateu. Once you can't successfully do X weight for 5x5, you change to 3x5, 3x3, etc.
Anyone can do what they want. Doesn't make it useful compared to better programming.
Absolutely not doing any good by decreasing volume compared to more advanced programming which includes more useful.stress.
SL is a okay program for a beginner as any program really if they are untrained. I mentioned it could be run for up to 3-4 months and be useful for some people.
I wasn't talking him out of SL,. I was giving advice how to make obvious adjustments to improve his OHP over long term while keeping the core of the program close.0 -
Micro plates can prevent the needed stimulus to progress. One can't simply add weight forever. Adding a set at appropriate intensity will almost always boost a stale lift.
Also people fail to realize just because a weight says it weighs a certain amount does mean it is. There is ALOT of play if not using calibrated weights.
Grinding out a set. At RPE 9 or higher will not be useful for a beginner.
My suggestion is to add volume, not intensity. If anything decrease intensity to a appropriate level.
One doesn't need to add sets indefinitely, but when you are doing 25 reps of a movement the obvious thing is to do is...
Add a set so now 6×5 with appropriate intensity.
Or
Change to 3×5 for OHP and add
3×5 for another press that has specificity such as the incline bench.
Both options increase volume from 25 to 30 and allow for appropriate intensity to drive progress.
Grinding is not good for strength or recovery.0 -
One doesn't need to add sets indefinitely, but when you are doing 25 reps of a movement the obvious thing is to do is...
Add a set so now 6×5 with appropriate intensity.
and to progress beyond this? 7x5? 8x5? 100x5?
or add 1-5# and start over 3x5 then 4x5 then 5x5?
maybe cycle intensity every session?
session 1 - 3x5 55#
session 2 - 3x3 60#
session 3 - 3x1 65#
add reps/sets until 5x5 55# 5x3 60# 5x1 65#
then start over adding 1-5# say:
session 1 - 3x5 57.5#
session 2 - 3x3 62.5#
session 3 - 3x1 67.5#
add reps/sets rinse wash repeat
add in some assistance as necessary to address “weak points” ie incline dumbbell (or barbell), overhead band presses, tricep extensions, lateral raises etc
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Grinding out a set. At RPE 9 or higher will not be useful for a beginner.
Grinding is not good for strength or recovery.
A novice doesn't know their RPEs, and it's not a useful metric for novices in determining how much to lift.
At some point you're going to have to slap down the doubts and grind out reps to pack volume into the program. It serves several purposes:- It allows a lifter to get the reps they need to continue to drive the overload-recovery-adaptation cycle
- It shows the novice especially that they're not fragile when they fail
- Novices who learn to grind make progress more consistently as they learn the difference between not having another rep in the tank and it merely feeling like there's not another rep in the tank.
Grinding is a requirement is you're going to lift heavy.2 -
CipherZero wrote: »
Grinding out a set. At RPE 9 or higher will not be useful for a beginner.
Grinding is not good for strength or recovery.
A novice doesn't know their RPEs, and it's not a useful metric for novices in determining how much to lift.
At some point you're going to have to slap down the doubts and grind out reps to pack volume into the program. It serves several purposes:- It allows a lifter to get the reps they need to continue to drive the overload-recovery-adaptation cycle
- It shows the novice especially that they're not fragile when they fail
- Novices who learn to grind make progress more consistently as they learn the difference between not having another rep in the tank and it merely feeling like there's not another rep in the tank.
Grinding is a requirement is you're going to lift heavy.
All my novice lifters learn RPE fairly solid in two weeks. Nothing is perfect but more you practice the better u get.
Who ever thinks a novice can't practice and learn RPE doesn't fully understand how to teach it.
I lift sort of heavy by some measurement. I'm ranked top five in USA last year in USAPL and don't ever grind. .
All my novice lifters progress without grinding.
By those two examples it is not a universal requirement.0 -
SL is a linear progession program only to be used for a couple months. It is not ever to be expected to keep adding weight for more than 3-4 at best.
99% of the time OHP is first to go.
SL is poorly written with zero increases in volume. Out of the four lifts 5×5 is best suited for OHP.
I stress that taking sets off is the opposite of what will work long term.
You should stop increasing intensity and proceed at a intensity you can complete with 2-3 left in tank. Add a set when the tank has more reps.
You could also add a exercise such as BB incline and do 3×5 of each.
Taking sets off does not produce strength in the least. It only destresses you temporary.
Adding micro plates is about inefficient as it gets for long term. Add stimulus not take it away.
That’s interesting. I’ve been using micro plates for bench and ohp. I’m not doing strong lifts. I’m doing an intermediate programme from muscle and strength pyramids. Should I not bother with micro plates?0 -
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cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »That’s interesting. I’ve been using micro plates for bench and ohp. I’m not doing strong lifts. I’m doing an intermediate programme from muscle and strength pyramids. Should I not bother with micro plates?
It depends. If you know you're using the exact same plates every time they can be valuable; if you're in a public gym, the plate variances can be enough to really throw off the calculations. Even my home gym (uncalibrated) plates vary 3 lbs on the 45 lb plates.0 -
CipherZero wrote: »cupcakesandproteinshakes wrote: »That’s interesting. I’ve been using micro plates for bench and ohp. I’m not doing strong lifts. I’m doing an intermediate programme from muscle and strength pyramids. Should I not bother with micro plates?
It depends. If you know you're using the exact same plates every time they can be valuable; if you're in a public gym, the plate variances can be enough to really throw off the calculations. Even my home gym (uncalibrated) plates vary 3 lbs on the 45 lb plates.
This is my answer as well but I add...
When I squat with uncalubrated plates and my target is lets say 405×7 @RPE 8. If I was doing linear progressive programming such as SL( I don't, I use auto regulated) ...
I might be actually lifting 20lbs less(385) or 20nlbs more(425)depending on combination of random uncalubrated plates I choose for that day.
That can really throw off a LP style programming. Is a micro plate really going to make a difference? Not likely when we truly don't know what weight we are lifting.
If we are using calibrated plates or the exact same commercial gym plates then micro could have some usefulness for certain lifters.
That being said, the majority of lifters would be better off just adding a set of volume at appropriate intensity based by exertion not by a robotic addition of a micro plate.
Are we actually lifting more than previous session? That is what dismisses the idea of micro helps when we don't know what we are actually lifting.0 -
3 min rest for a pressing movement is pretty standard.
It helps build our work capacity.
Our pressing movement don't demand much more rest. If you can't recover in neatly three minutes for a OHP, there are probably better options than rest longer as a first option.0 -
of course one would need to experiment with themselves and the various available options to see what works best in their individual circumstances and discover the nuances best suited for them, rather than excepting as gospel the random opines of internet strangers...3 min rest for a pressing movement is pretty standard.
It helps build our work capacity.
Our pressing movement don't demand much more rest. If you can't recover in neatly three minutes for a OHP, there are probably better options than rest longer as a first option.
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on the micro plates and variances... As a beginner, the amount of plates, weight is going to be much, much less than that example. In some instances, it might be an intermediate step between the empty barbell (and not necessarily the full-sized one) and adding a single 2.5 lb plate to each side. In the OP's case, the barbell and 2 10-lb plates (not a pile of 45's). (as opposed to attempting to load something in the neighborhood of 397.5 vs 400 lbs).0
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on the micro plates and variances... As a beginner, the amount of plates, weight is going to be much, much less than that example. In some instances, it might be an intermediate step between the empty barbell (and not necessarily the full-sized one) and adding a single 2.5 lb plate to each side. In the OP's case, the barbell and 2 10-lb plates (not a pile of 45's). (as opposed to attempting to load something in the neighborhood of 397.5 vs 400 lbs).
Doesn't matter if we are talking 405 or 75. If that is RPE8, then that is RPE 8. If we are overahooting exertion because we feel we need a number...that is problematic.
The point is stop worrying about adding a arbitrary number and woory about exertion. Micro plates have there place but usually more advanced programming where gains are few and far between.0
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